Ethiopian Airlines Crash/ B737MAX grounding

Turbulent Bill · 04-07-2020 1:41am

Fritzbox wrote: »

I think there is a plan to introduce synthetic airspeed instrumentation capability on the MAX in the near future but it won't be implemented for a while. Synthetic airspeed may well be accepted in absence of a third AoA vane?

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/boeings-737-max-software-done-but-regulators-plot-more-changes-after-jets-return/#:~:text=Boeing%20is%20now%20recommending%20simulator,unreliable%20and%20improve%20stall%20protection.

I struggle to see why a safety regulator would accept this. 3-input voting systems work because you have equal confidence in each input, so it doesn't matter which one fails. If one input is synthetic, its response won't be the same as the other 'real' inputs, so the assumption breaks down.

Lipstick on a pig...

Fritzbox · 04-07-2020 7:17am

Turbulent Bill wrote: »

I struggle to see why a safety regulator would accept this. 3-input voting systems work because you have equal confidence in each input, so it doesn't matter which one fails. If one input is synthetic, its response won't be the same as the other 'real' inputs, so the assumption breaks down.

Lipstick on a pig...

Why wouldn't the input from a synthetic measurement not be the same? It seems to be considered more than acceptabe in the aerospace engineering world - doesn't the Boeing 787 have such a system?

L1011 · 04-07-2020 10:56am

wonski wrote: »

And that's why you can't compare Ryanair to Aerlingus. One plays with their own money, sure even if you get loans and investors you have to spend wisely, the other is flying single passengers using public money to locations that can be accessed by public road network in less than 3 hours.

Apologies for going a little ot, but some things had to be said

Ryanair operate PSO flights across Europe and used to operate the Dublin to Kerry one here.

You don't know what you're talking about.

It also looks as if you don't know where Donegal airport it. It's in the north west of the county. Not quite as quick driving as you seem to be imagining for Donegal Town or something

cnocbui · 04-07-2020 11:03am

L1011 wrote: »

Ryanair operate PSO flights across Europe and used to operate the Dublin to Kerry one here.

You don't know what you're talking about.

It also looks as if you don't know where Donegal airport it. It's in the north west of the county. Not quite as quick driving as you seem to be imagining for Donegal Town or something

Let them take buses. More time to eat cake.

L1011 · 04-07-2020 11:05am

cnocbui wrote: »

Let them take buses. More time to eat cake.

Only if it's Bacus Ui Bhaoill cakes.

wonski · 04-07-2020 1:59pm

All right I read more on that and understand now

Also have nothing against people of Kerry and Donegal. Apologies for being ignorant.

You can stop kicking me now

Tenzor07 · 04-07-2020 3:17pm

Tenger wrote: »

This statement is true. However FR are actually so large at this point that they could conceivably switch fleets over a 5-10 year period or even operate 2 separate (massive) fleets of 200 each. Essentially they could start to add A320s into the smaller 3-4 aircraft bases, over time consolidating the B737 into the larger bases.
It would definitely add extra cost and some complexity but it isnt as drastic as it might be as, for example Aer Lingus (with essentially 1 main base) switching its 36 A320 family to B737s.

Anything is possible as they say....Unless you're suggesting that rather than say run cheap flights into Gatwick, RA will want to run their Airbus into busier more expensive hubs like Heathrow?

At one stage I believe RA were going to feed passengers into LGW for Norwegian's transatlantic routes, but i'd say that's been scraped completely.

However, all Airlines will be operating fewer bases, less aircraft for the foreseeable..RA are almost getting the aircraft free from Boeing at this stage, and plan their expansion in the next 3 years on the Max 10, they won't get the same deal from AB. And won't be changing the RA brand for a long time.

Turbulent Bill · 04-07-2020 11:45pm

Fritzbox wrote: »

Why wouldn't the input from a synthetic measurement not be the same? It seems to be considered more than acceptabe in the aerospace engineering world - doesn't the Boeing 787 have such a system?

'Real' AoA sensors provide a simple, direct measurement. Any synthesised measurement will have to be created from a number of input variables, and will be sensitive to the combined errors in each of these. By necessity, these errors then propagate into the voting system used by the system (i.e., are at least two of the sensors giving the same feedback and hence are trustworthy).

I'm not familiar with the details of any of these systems (including the 787's). Maybe they have fantastic error checking and it all works beautifully. But looking at the MAX's history, it's likely to be just another sticky plaster on top of all the others, and doesn't fill me with any confidence.

Tenger · 05-07-2020 2:52pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Anything is possible as they say....Unless you're suggesting that rather than say run cheap flights into Gatwick, RA will want to run their Airbus into busier more expensive hubs like Heathrow?
..............................

I made no inference regarding LGW, LHR or any other specific airport.
My post was referencing the massive size of the Ryanair fleet, it’s 45+ bases around Europe and the supply chain effects of single versus mixed fleet.

Belfast · 06-07-2020 11:24pm

smurfjed · 07-07-2020 1:24pm

When the manufacturers bid, they put together data that will show the aircraft fuel burn, maintenance costs, ATC and airport charges, loadings etc for every conceivable route pairing in that airline’s network. This is not cheap or quick to do, so they just won’t bother with people who they regard as time wasters.

Having received bid’s from both Airbus and Boeing, they most certainly weren’t interested in providing data for every conceivable route, however Boeing loved to waste their time and efforts by providing us with Airbus data, and then complain about how much work was involved in producing the data

Belfast · 21-07-2020 12:04am

JohnC. · 21-07-2020 6:31am

Looks more like an additive issue (and improper use of it) than a Max issue. It's happened to other planes too and the additive withdrawn from the market.

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/faa-bans-dupont-fuel-additive-from-use-in-737-max/139311.article

cnocbui · 21-07-2020 3:21pm

Belfast wrote: »

If I recall correctly, it was just this issue which caused a double engine failure on a Citation, which then had to try and glide to the nearest airfield.

Car99 · 22-07-2020 1:20pm

Belfast wrote: »

Same issue on a TITAN A321 back in Feb , a very very close call by all accounts. It is miscalculsting the quantity of treatment fluid to add to the fuel that causes the problems.

Very lucky it was a positioning flight with no pax or bags on board otherwise it would have been a different story.

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-special-bulletin-s1-2020-on-airbus-a321-211-g-pown

Belfast · 24-07-2020 8:28pm

FAA issues emergency notice about Boeing 737

This one seems to affect 737ng plus other 737s.

Tenzor07 · 24-07-2020 8:30pm

Belfast wrote: »

FAA issues emergency notice about Boeing 737

This one seems to affect 737ng plus other 737s.

This is only for those in (long term) storage, a valve replacement I see.

jucylucy · 24-07-2020 9:57pm

Any B737 not flown in 7 days is affected......that covers quite a lot of aircraft!

Belfast · 25-07-2020 2:45pm

jucylucy wrote: »

Any B737 not flown in 7 days is affected......that covers quite a lot of aircraft!

indeed.

IngazZagni · 26-07-2020 1:42pm

jucylucy wrote: »

Any B737 not flown in 7 days is affected......that covers quite a lot of aircraft!

Quite a lot of operators have been rotating their aircraft so they they did fly once every week. This prevented extra storage and maintenance costs. During lockdown you may have noticed the likes of Ryanair simply doing a takeoff, circuit and landing at the same airport precisely for this reason and they'll be even more delighted with themselves for doing this after hearing this news.

Belfast · 27-07-2020 2:31am

Belfast · 09-08-2020 12:08am

FAA gives preliminary approval on fixes for 737 Max and opens public comment period of 45 days.

L1011 · 13-08-2020 7:48pm

Can you provide some commentary or something rather than just link-dumping please

Shedite27 · 19-08-2020 10:13pm

First order of the year for the Max in 2020 was announced today, Polish charter company Enter Air buying 2.

Bit of a way to go to amke up for the 800 cancellations they've had

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/19/boeing-scores-first-new-737-max-orders-since-november.html

Tenzor07 · 20-08-2020 1:12pm

Shedite27 wrote: »

First order of the year for the Max in 2020 was announced today, Polish charter company Enter Air buying 2.
Bit of a way to go to amke up for the 800 cancellations they've had

Exactly, in a normal time an order for a handful of aircraft wouldn't raise an eyebrow, but now it's a tiny green shoot for Boeing..

I would say that this airline are getting the 737-8 for next to nothing!

Henry Ford III · 27-08-2020 11:27am

Sounds like a big step forwards for the 737 Max.

p.s. I won't be one of the first to fly in one.

Tenzor07 · 27-08-2020 11:32am

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Sounds like a big step forwards for the 737 Max.

p.s. I won't be one of the first to fly in one.

Once Ryanair get the dash 10 and offer €9.99 flights to Greece or Italy there won't be an empty seat!

john boye · 27-08-2020 11:59am

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Once Ryanair get the dash 10 and offer €9.99 flights to Greece or Italy there won't be an empty seat!

Haven't they only ordered the max 200?

Captain_Crash · 27-08-2020 2:25pm

john boye wrote: »

Haven't they only ordered the max 200?

The MAX10-200. Its just a high density version of the 10.

L1011 · 27-08-2020 2:33pm

Captain_Crash wrote: »

The MAX10-200. Its just a high density version of the 10.

They have ordered 8-200s, a high density version of the 8.

A high density 10 would be pushing 250.

Captain_Crash · 27-08-2020 2:35pm

L1011 wrote: »

They have ordered 8-200s, a high density version of the 8.

A high density 10 would be pushing 250.

Ah yeah, your right.... getting myself confused obvs

HTCOne · 28-08-2020 12:46am

I’ve read the -10 was never planned to have MCAS due the longer fuselage, but nobody wants that version because it’s crap! (Compared to 321neo).

Hotblack Desiato · 28-08-2020 12:13pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Sounds like a big step forwards for the 737 Max.

What is? A little context would be nice.

You're hardly referring to the order of TWO aircraft are you?

smurfjed · 28-08-2020 12:38pm

EASA sent this out this morning.

COLOGNE, August 27, 2020 - The European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) has been working steadily, in close cooperation with the FAA and Boeing, to return the Boeing 737 MAX aircraft to service as soon as possible, but only once it is convinced it is safe.

While Boeing still has some final actions to close off, EASA judges the overall maturity of the re-design process is now sufficient to proceed to flight tests. These are a prerequisite for the European agency to approve the aircraft’s new design.

EASA has been working with the FAA and Boeing to schedule its flight tests, a process which has been hindered by COVID-19 travel restrictions between Europe and the United States.

The parties have now reached agreement that EASA’s flight tests will take place in Vancouver, Canada in the week commencing September 7, 2020.

Simulator tests will take place in the previous week (from Sept 1, 2020) in London Gatwick in the United Kingdom. The Joint Operations Evaluation Board (JOEB), will also take place in Gatwick, in the week beginning September 14, 2020.

banie01 · 09-09-2020 10:00am

Boeing may have been paying a bit too much attention to the MAX over the last few months.
Seems like they've dropped the ball on the 787 production line again!

In addition to the fuselage jointing issue on 8 airframes last month, a horizontal stabilizer issue has come to light in recent production airframes.
This new issue isn't a safety issue, but once again brings the issues apparent with Boeing's QC and production quality to the forefront.

Of particular note is the possibility that all current in service Dreamliners may require additional inspections.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/09/08/business/boeing-787-flaw-orders-deliveries/index.html

Boeing announced Tuesday a second problem with the 787, this one affecting its horizontal stabilizer on planes that have yet to be delivered. Last month the company grounded eight planes over a problem with the joining of parts of the 787's fuselage...

The horizontal stabilizer problem is not believed to pose a safety issue, according to Boeing, but it will affect future deliveries.
The Wall Street Journal reported Tuesday that the FAA is looking at whether 900 of the Dreamliners that have already been delivered and are in service will need to be inspected due to manufacturing problems.

Hotblack Desiato · 09-09-2020 3:15pm

CNN wrote:

By contrast, the 787 Dreamliner until recently had been a problem-free aircraft.

:pac:

banie01 · 09-09-2020 4:10pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

:pac:

I know, I know :pac:
I didn't quote that bit, because a few folk in here would see it as confirmation of my anti-Boeing bias

I've being banging the drum on their QC issues since I started posting on this thread.
There really is a serious culture flaw at Boeing around seeing quality control as a non-value add activity.
Which is fine "If" they could get it right 1st time.

It's quite clear they can't, even when they are under extreme pressure.
Shambles.

ForestFire · 09-09-2020 4:17pm

If I may ask a hypothetical question.......

What happens in a situation where Boeing (Or Airbus) go bust and the company is closed....

Who look after the huge fleets in operation around the world?
Who issue safety recommendations or implements fixes/upgrades/spare parts that need to be applied to current aircraft?
Would this be the operators in a high risk situation, as there is no company to fall back on?

Tenger · 09-09-2020 4:35pm

I'm guessing of one of the 2 went "bust" the constituent parts would be broken up and sold off.
So Lufthansa Technique (for example) could become the support for Airbus aircraft.
Embraer buys up the A320 production line and order sheet.
Some new consortium buys the A330/350 production.

Tenzor07 · 09-09-2020 5:28pm

ForestFire wrote: »

If I may ask a hypothetical question.......
What happens in a situation where Boeing (Or Airbus) go bust and the company is closed....Who look after the huge fleets in operation around the world?
Who issue safety recommendations or implements fixes/upgrades/spare parts that need to be applied to current aircraft?
Would this be the operators in a high risk situation, as there is no company to fall back on?

Boeing won't go bust... ever. It's a matter of national security that they don't.

At worst the commercial section of the business would come under state ownership. They would sell of any of the international subsidiaries.

Airbus is far more exposed to the commercial sector, but again, the French government may try to prop up the company to stop them from going bankrupt in exchange for a large section of the business, though not sure how that aligns with EU law on state aid for private companies..

Davy · 13-09-2020 1:11pm

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/travel/2020/09/11/boeing-737-max-europes-flight-safety-authority-completes-test-flights/3471605001/

Europe’s flight safety authority said Friday the first flight tests for the Boeing 737 Max, which has been grounded worldwide after two deadly crashes revealed design issues with the jet, have now been completed.

The test flights conducted over the past week by the European Aviation Safety Agency took place in Vancouver, Canada, because of travel restrictions due to the coronavirus and are now complete, the agency said.

“As the next step in its evaluation of the aircraft for return to service, EASA is now analyzing the data and other information gathered during the flights,” the agency said.

The data will then be turned over to EASA’s joint operations evaluation board, which is scheduled to start its assessment next week in London.

banie01 · 16-09-2020 2:08pm

Boeing and the FAA are not coming out of the congressional report as anything other than corrupt on the part of Boeing and open to Boeing's manipulation and utterly incompetent on the part of the FAA .

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/16/913426448/congressional-inquiry-faults-boeing-and-faa-failures-for-deadly-737-max-plane-cr

"The Max crashes were not the result of a singular failure, technical mistake, or mismanaged event," the committee report says. Instead, "they were the horrific culmination of a series of faulty technical assumptions by Boeing's engineers, a lack of transparency on the part of Boeing's management, and grossly insufficient oversight by the FAA."

Damien360 · 16-09-2020 9:03pm

banie01 wrote: »

Boeing and the FAA are not coming out of the congressional report as anything other than corrupt on the part of Boeing and open to Boeing's manipulation and utterly incompetent on the part of the FAA .

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/16/913426448/congressional-inquiry-faults-boeing-and-faa-failures-for-deadly-737-max-plane-cr

I’ll give the US government one simple Kudos. Their congressional hearings appear to be hard hitting. Not sure if they have any effect but I wish our tribunal of enquires had even half the balls they have.

L1011 · 16-09-2020 9:07pm

Oireachtas enquiries here are limited by the Abbeylara judgement, and the proposed constitutional amendment and legislation to give them more powers was a mess and rejected by the people a few years ago.

Davy · 17-09-2020 9:14am

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ryanair-to-place-max-order-by-year-end-predicts-davy-39538016.html

Ryanair will take advantage of the bruised global aviation market to place a fresh order for Boeing's troubled Max jet by the end of the year, Davy Stockbrokers believes.

Ryanair group CEO Michael O'Leary has previously indicated that the airline has been having discussions with Boeing in relation to its Max 10 variant. Eddie Wilson, the chief executive of Ryanair, recently confirmed that talks with Boeing are continuing.

Tenzor07 · 17-09-2020 11:50am

Davy wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ryanair-to-place-max-order-by-year-end-predicts-davy-39538016.html

Where have I seen this before....hmm....

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2002/jan/24/theairlineindustry1

Hotblack Desiato · 17-09-2020 5:18pm

They already have the Max200 orders customised to their specification, why would they want the Max10?

goingnowhere · 17-09-2020 7:46pm

It makes no sense

They wants 200 seat aircraft to maximise numbers and minimize staffing

The 10 is a interesting bit of kit with the strange landing gear. A321NEO still has the lead on range and runways, not to mention is late 1980's engineering vs late 1950's

IngazZagni · 17-09-2020 8:19pm

Up to 33 more passengers than the Max 8 200. Just look at the success that Wizz Air and Easyjet have had with the A321Neo. I think they would like a small percentage of the fleet to maximise this extra revenue on high performing routes. Makes sense to me.

Hotblack Desiato · 17-09-2020 11:36pm

321neo isn't the MAX10 though - it's an established and popular airframe that is built to modern standards and isn't a bodge clunkily modified in a desperate attempt to avoid tailstrikes.

Ethiopian Airlines Crash/ B737MAX grounding

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