UL Medicine

johnjoebreen · 20-09-2010 10:34pm #1

Quick question,

How hard is it to get into Postgrad Medicine at UL.

Anyone have an idea of the ratio of applicants to places?

Thanks

ORLY? · 21-09-2010 12:44am

johnjoebreen wrote: »

Quick question,

How hard is it to get into Postgrad Medicine at UL.

Anyone have an idea of the ratio of applicants to places?

Thanks

It's not really possible to say because there is no direct application to any of the universities. It's all done through CAO in the exact same way that regular undergrad degrees are.

It hasn't been that hard to get into graduate medicine, relatively speaking I suppose. I think for the last few years if you were in about the top 20-25% of GAMSAT sitters you would have gotten in (assuming you have at least a 2.1 in your first degree, and I mean first and only first.)

That probably would have gotten you into at least UL which has about 70 places now I think for EU students. Cork and UCD I think have had the next highest cut-offs for about 35 and 55 places, then RCSI for about 35 places. These numbers have been changing quite a bit so excuse me if I'm out of date.

Now, I think in the next couple of years the GAMSAT cut-off will increase for all of them. In spite of an increase in places this year there was no decline in the scores. I doubt there will be another increase in places in the near future and demand will continue to rise. So, in short, it's going to get tougher I think.

Choco99 · 09-11-2010 12:36am

I'm in final year in grad med in UL now. We were the 1st year starting in the med school and the GAMSAT point requirements have gone down each year since then. This is because the number of places in the school have increased from 32 in the 1st year starting the school to what's meant to be 120 now. The number of applicants didn't increase that much though, so the GAMSAT scores needed to get in dropped to mid-to-early 50s.
If I were you I'd apply to UL this year before the GAMSAT scores start rising a bit more.

Amanda1981 · 11-11-2010 11:55pm

hi choco 99

do u have any gamsat reading materials for sale. im due to take the test in march.

thanks

Choco99 · 12-11-2010 6:01pm

No sorry, I don't have any old GAMSAT papers! You can buy them from the official GAMSAT website (http://www.gamsat.acer.edu.au/ ) if no-one has any. They cost about €25-30ish per booklet thing. Annoyingly uncheap.

spagboll · 13-11-2010 2:39pm

Yeah get in to gradmed asap imo, there was a bit of a points explosion this year, RCSI from 60 to 63, UCD staying 60 despite 35 new places, limerick had the most new places i think and went down 1 point only and on top of this some people are entering science and allied health courses now with the ambition to get into gradmed...biomed in ucc/cit saw a large point increase this year as did other similar courses. UCD gradmed was 56 in 2007 (i think) i'd be shocked if it ever dropped below 60 again

When Limerick finishes its new med building and is churning out graduates (1-2 years time) it will join the rest of the pack in the 60+ region imo

del85 · 20-11-2010 8:23pm

Hi Spagboll,

I scored a 60 this year and hope to apply for Limerick 2011 entry. Do you reckon I would be safe with this score?

bubbleking · 20-11-2010 8:44pm

del85 wrote: »

Hi Spagboll,

I scored a 60 this year and hope to apply for Limerick 2011 entry. Do you reckon I would be safe with this score?

well I got a 59 so fingers crossed I got in too

It went to 56 last year so please God there isnt a massive jump this year

del85 · 20-11-2010 8:49pm

I'm terrified of there being some massive jump in points due to the inevitable rise in applicants year on year. Hopefully Limerick will stay in the 50's for another little while at least though

bubbleking · 20-11-2010 8:52pm

del85 wrote: »

I'm terrified of there being some massive jump in points due to the inevitable rise in applicants year on year. Hopefully Limerick will stay in the 50's for another little while at least though

yeah Im pretty nervous of that happening too. but it should be ok for next year - wouldnt like to be leaving it any longer though

spagboll · 21-11-2010 8:03pm

yeah i think 60 should be safe for UL if places stay the same

vasco378 · 23-11-2010 6:01pm

Hi Spagboll, am keen to apply to Limerick university to start on the grad med course for September 2011 entry.

I just sat the GAMSAT and got an overall score of 59. I also have a 2:1 honours degree from the UK. Based on the messages in this thread, this may just be enough for Limerick University.

Would you advise me to re-sit the GAMSAT in March 2011 just to be extra safe? (obviously, I would prefer not to).

Does Limerick or any of the other Irish grad medicine universities require a specific score on each individual GAMSAT section? Or is their decision based solely on the overall score that ACER give?

Would be really helpful to get any advice....

del85 · 23-11-2010 6:32pm

It wouldnt hurt to have another go imo. I'll be doing it.

With the economy the way it is, I can't see Limerick (or anywhere else) making many more places available in their GEP next time round. Couple that with the fact that more and more applicants are taking GAMSAT every year, and I reckon that some jump in points is inevitable.

spagboll · 23-11-2010 9:27pm

I'm not too comfortable with telling other people what they should and shouldn't do

59 is a good score, given that you have your 2.1 in the bag and no finals to worry about - another sitting of the gamsat won't hurt -I think you should sit it again to be on the safe side, waht do other people think?

In Ireland the GAMSAT score is calculated by (s1+s2+(s3x2))/4, unlike the UK s3 must have a double weighting and the individual scores in each section don't matter provided you meet the cutoff

UL are due to have another 20 places to reach their 120 quota - given that the IMF are coming in who knows how that will work out! Galway are supposed to come on stream too

del85 · 24-11-2010 7:10pm

"UL are due to have another 20 places to reach their 120 quota - given that the IMF are coming in who knows how that will work out! Galway are supposed to come on stream too"

It was announced today that education spending is to be protected, but healthcare is to be cut considerably, so I reckon it depends on what category the GEP falls under.

vasco378 · 25-11-2010 2:40pm

Thanks for the answers. Very helpful.

Given that Limerick selected people with a score of 56 last year, I am not sure that their cut-off is going to jump to 59 or 60 even if they stay with only 70 seats. Definitely not if they increase their number of places from 70 to 90 (or more). But maybe this is just me being a bit lazy because preparing for GAMSAT again whilst working full time is a real mission....

One more question. Do the graduate medicine courses in Ireland have some sort of reduction in fees for mature graduates? Is there any destinction between "mature" graduates and other graduates who appply for grad med courses?

del85 · 25-11-2010 6:03pm

vasco378 wrote: »

Thanks for the answers. Very helpful.

Given that Limerick selected people with a score of 56 last year, I am not sure that their cut-off is going to jump to 59 or 60 even if they stay with only 70 seats. Definitely not if they increase their number of places from 70 to 90 (or more).

Yep you're probably right. I think the fact that RCSI shot up by three points this year has some people (ie, me) a bit spooked.

vasco378 wrote: »

One more question. Do the graduate medicine courses in Ireland have some sort of reduction in fees for mature graduates? Is there any destinction between "mature" graduates and other graduates who appply for grad med courses?

Nope fees are the same for all EU GEP students, regardless of age. A couple of the banks have loans specifically tailored for GEP students which take care of the fees and living expenses with what are supposed to be preferential interest rates. You can find Ulster bank's loan deal here: http://www2.ul.ie/pdf/718128609.pdf

Also, a very limited number of mature graduates are accepted into the 'regular' 5/6 year undergrad medical stream, but not if you already have a degree (as far as I know).

vasco378 · 29-11-2010 6:02pm

Great, thanks for the info. Repaying a €100,000 Euro loan over the allowable 10 year period after graduating as a doctor seems rather daunting. The loan from Ulter Bank doesn´t seem to be that great a deal for prospective students as it seems commercial interest rates will be charged: " Interest rates on graduation will be based on the prevailing professional lending interest rates at the time."

With the Irish economy in a major crisis and the banks experiencing the difficulties that they are at the moment, let´s see if the banks will still be able to lend to students come next year...

Yillan · 12-12-2010 9:43am

I attended the Open Evening at UCD where the student guides that brought us around were highly critical of the UL course, not least because of the Problem Based Learning system employed there, which they think just isn't effective. There's also the issue of there not being an anatomy department. My friend who has graduated from RCSI tells me that cadavers and so forth are a rite of passage and that anatomy is not all that important in the grand scheme of things.

It does just seem however as if, irrespective of location, UL Medicine is an inferior course. Anyone willing to argue for/against that point?

spagboll · 12-12-2010 3:27pm

go to UL and have a look for yourself, talk to the students there, it's a good university with a great campus

its very petty have a go at a new course, i did my research for the CAO and limerick checked out in all departments

I think PBL should be renamed Medicine based learning, because that's what it is, you learn the biomedical sciences in the context of medicine as a whole

Also many of the North American students have UL as first choice because it is similar to North American schools

You can poke holes in all of the GEM and UEM, its mainly down to the student as to the quality of the doc imo

Yillan · 12-12-2010 3:57pm

I did my undergrad in Limerick so I know the place a little too well really, but I'm taking on board what you say.

One of the guides also mentioned that the exams are graded by way of red, orange and green lights and not percentage points. Is that the case? A green light if you pass, an orange if you barely pass and red if you fail or something similar. I can't see myself being fond of that system

del85 · 12-12-2010 6:33pm

Yillan wrote: »

I attended the Open Evening at UCD where the student guides that brought us around were highly critical of the UL course

I would love to know how a student guide in UCD would feel qualified to pass judgement on a course of which he/she has absolutely no experience. Seems very petty really.

Considering that the Universities are essentially in direct competition with eachother for the best applicants, I would take such 'criticisms' with a pinch of salt.

spagboll · 12-12-2010 7:20pm

as a medical student I know how hard the work is, i wouldn't dream of passing a sly remark on some else's education as i know how deep that could cut

most of the spoofing about the schools comes from applicants who really don't know what they are talking about and base the vast majority of their assumptions on cutoffs, UL and RCSI get the doing most of the time, before it was UCG and people even talk ****e about trinners the odd time. I have issues with my own school, i've cursed its name a few times by now

And the Irish international students get the worst doing, but I admire their committment, a tough bunch

Svalbard · 20-12-2010 9:26pm

spagboll wrote: »

before it was UCG

Don't be silly, everyone knows NUIG/UCG grads are awesome!!!!

Yillan · 21-12-2010 8:25pm

The UL Open Evening for GEM is on the 24th March 2011, i.e 2 days before the GAMSAT Ireland exam. Can anyone understand why they'd put the open evening on so close to the entrance exam? Seems a bit ridiculous to me and I'll hardly be able to attend now, even though the course is set out such that an Open Evening is crucial to fully understand what PBL is all about. Anyone feel like drafting a strongly worded email?

ORLY? · 22-12-2010 10:56am

Yillan wrote: »

The UL Open Evening for GEM is on the 24th March 2011, i.e 2 days before the GAMSAT Ireland exam. Can anyone understand why they'd put the open evening on so close to the entrance exam? Seems a bit ridiculous to me and I'll hardly be able to attend now, even though the course is set out such that an Open Evening is crucial to fully understand what PBL is all about.

I have a feeling that might be a mistake. The date for the GAMSAT is given as March 20th here.

It says at the top that these are provisional dates. Now that the GAMSAT has been set they might change the open day. The GAMSAT seems very late this year, weird.

Yillan wrote: »

Anyone feel like drafting a strongly worded email?

How about starting with a nice polite one?

Yillan · 22-12-2010 1:32pm

ORLY? wrote: »

I have a feeling that might be a mistake. The date for the GAMSAT is given as March 20th here.

It says at the top that these are provisional dates. Now that the GAMSAT has been set they might change the open day. The GAMSAT seems very late this year, weird.

How about starting with a nice polite one?

I neglected to mention that I'd already emailed UL med school about the relative proximity of the two events. Very politely. I first asked when the Open Evening would take place. I was told the 24th. I then politely professed concerns that it was extremely close to the GAMSAT date (26th) but this point was left unheeded in the return email, so I email again to be told that the Open Evening would take place on the 24th, but if I wanted to meet a faculty member at a time that was more suitable for me, then perhaps that could be arranged. This was less than a week ago.

I then emailed again to say that I felt the open evening date defied logic and thanked her for her help.

And there you have it

etymon · 29-12-2010 2:28pm

Jayyysus there's a lot of moaning going on here

Yillan · 14-01-2011 10:17am

Got an email to say the Open Evening date is changed to the 31st March. Nice one.

Here

gubernaculum · 15-01-2011 6:50pm

I'm in RCSI but I went to the UL evening last year and I think a lot of the negative perceptions surrounding the course are rubbish. Despite slightly different methods, we all get taught the same stuff to the same level. There's an element of PBL in most grad-entry courses. It suits some people, it won't others. At the end of the day you're gonna have to spend most of your awake hours with a bum in the chair trying to figure out and learn stuff irrespective of how its been taught so it really comes down to knowing yourself enough to go 'this suits me' 'this doesn't'. Don't write off the place without finding out about it. The campus is fantastic, the med school should be (almost!) finished and it's cheaper to live down there. Think the train from Dublin was only about 2hrs which is grand. I remember being a bit miffed with the open evening because lots of audience questions were the usual pre-contemplative 'so how do I sit the GAMSAT?' stuff and I'd already got my points, but I met up with a student in the class and grilled her beforehand and she was really positive about how she was being taught. So that's what I'd do if I were you. Find a UL student willing to talk and buy them coffee. I stayed in Dublin because I'm in a long-term relationship but otherwise would have been just as happy in UL. And possibly healthier with the facilities and whatnot. In Sandyford exercise involves walking to the vending machines and trotting around the anatomy room trying to avoid being asked questions

(p.s. This is not to say I don't love RCSI. I'm really happy here but the place isn't the important thing. Liking the course is the important thing.)

gem2010 · 21-04-2011 12:18am

Yillan wrote: »

I did my undergrad in Limerick so I know the place a little too well really, but I'm taking on board what you say.

One of the guides also mentioned that the exams are graded by way of red, orange and green lights and not percentage points. Is that the case? A green light if you pass, an orange if you barely pass and red if you fail or something similar. I can't see myself being fond of that system

There is a traffic light system, whereby green is a pass, yellow is a pass within five percent and red is a fail... also purple has been introduced... you don't want to get a purple.

Having said that, you also get your percentages, and the mean of the class stats etc. I think they used to just give the lights but decided you kind of do need to know your percentage so the traffic light system is a bit redundant now.

I have to laugh hearing UCD guides giving out about a course they have no experience with. I'm not going to get angry because the whole situation is too ridiculous!

The way I feel about it is, if you want to do medicine badly enough, you'll all be researching all of the colleges, irrespective of county (unless you have a family or similar circumstances) - and if you do that you can find out for yourself what the course is like and why the people in UL chose UL.

I'm in first year and there are roughly 100 people in my class, started out as about 120 with some drop-outs (its a tough tough course). You can't rely on points cut offs to tell you even how popular the course is when you're comparing it to a course with only 35 places. Supply and Demand. Also it's a COMPLETELY different learning style to the traditional spend all day in lectures approach. It either suits you or it doesn't, but it is the way it's taught in N.America and St Georges and some Aussie Universities.

If you think about it logically, UL Med school is only four years old, and they had the opportunity to create whatever medical school they liked really because they were starting from scratch. So ask yourself this, why didn't they choose the traditional route? Is it because it's out-dated? Is it because it has been proven to be perhaps NOT the best way to learn? Is it because there are newer, more innovative and involved ways to teach that are more relevant to a clinical career?

I'm not trying to sell the place to you, or trying to stick up for it even, I just want you to think for yourself for a minute instead of listening to hearsay... Inform yourself and then make an informed decision based on what course suits you personally.

Best of luck to all of you. IMO anybody with 58 or higher pretty much has a place in UL. Hit me up if anybody has any questions.

MedGal · 29-05-2011 8:32am

Anyone with a 57 hoping for a place?

EugeneOnegin · 02-06-2011 4:20pm

MedGal wrote: »

Anyone with a 57 hoping for a place?

I don't want to jinx things, but I would imagine with 57 you're in a happy place and are very likely UL-bound

In my very very very humble opinion I would expect that UL could end up being about 55*. That's something of a "guestimation" however, which I'm basing upon what I could infer from talking to UL Med school staff and the decreased no. of applicants.

Though as has been said on previous threads, those applying with UK Gamsat scores may buck the trend a bit- take any speculation with a pinch of salt though!

watawaster · 06-06-2011 9:36pm

If you think about it logically, UL Med school is only four years old, and they had the opportunity to create whatever medical school they liked really because they were starting from scratch. So ask yourself this, why didn't they choose the traditional route? Is it because it's out-dated? Is it because it has been proven to be perhaps NOT the best way to learn? Is it because there are newer, more innovative and involved ways to teach that are more relevant to a clinical career?

I agree but I cant help having a niggling feeling that the low cost of the PBL approach (and no anatomy labs) may have also played a factor...:(

MrsStuffings · 06-06-2011 11:04pm

i think PBL is actually more expensive. I mean think about it. Having to get ten tutors to teach twice a week to ten groups, as opposed to getting 3/4 lecturers to teach to the entire class a few times a week.

plus, apparently the anatomy down there the same anatomy class is taught about six times a week. as in the class is split up into their tutorial groups and then they are taught the same class by the lecturer instead of the whole class being taught as a whole group.

to me that is actually both time and cost deficient, it would be much faster to teach to the whole class in one group once.

so i'm not sure how right it is to say theyre trying to save money.

also i think the government decided that this was the new medical course to be taught, and then the schools tendered for it. i dont think UL decided to do PBL. i think the government decided to offer a pbl degree and then the colleges competed to be awarded it.

nonetheless, they're defo skimping on money in some places.
no biochemistry classes or lecturer and no pharmacology classes or lecturer. no microbiology being taught either.
welcome to the 21st century, where students learn medicine from wikipedia and colouring books.

Yillan · 06-06-2011 11:06pm

MrsStuffings wrote: »

welcome to the 21st century, where students learn medicine from wikipedia and colouring books.

Little bit tired now

Sid_Justice · 07-06-2011 12:04am

MrsStuffings wrote: »

plus, apparently the anatomy down there the same anatomy class is taught about six times a week. as in the class is split up into their tutorial groups and then they are taught the same class by the lecturer instead of the whole class being taught as a whole group.

The anatomy is taught by tutorial not by lecture. There are 3 tutors each specialize in slightly different things. Each tutorial lasts 30 minutes, with a group of 10 you will be asked about 3 questions. If the tutorials had a larger size you'd get less individual questions. If you made the tutorials larger and longer they would be less manageable for the tutors.

What's your undergrad in MrsStuffings? General Science UCD?

MrsStuffings · 07-06-2011 2:03am

pharmacy from trinity actually Sid.

ya thats what i meant. if theres a hundred in the class, and you're in groups of ten, does that mean the same tutorial is ran ten times?

ljg1 · 07-06-2011 12:58pm

MrsStuffings wrote: »

also i think the government decided that this was the new medical course to be taught, and then the schools tendered for it. i dont think UL decided to do PBL. i think the government decided to offer a pbl degree and then the colleges competed to be awarded it.

Once again you are completely wrong, and I'd like to use this as an opportunity to point out that most of what you say is utterly unfounded with no research whatsoever. You talk about people doing their "research" before they chose UL. Let me tell you, no person with half an ounce of intelligence would pick UL without doing their research. The PBL approach is really not for everyone,
Firstly, UL was chosen, and then the curriculum was approved afterwards.

http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/universities-outraged-over-medical-school-in-limerick-50583.html

Secondly, if you HAD actually done your research, you would know that learning is NOT a receptive process. Learning is an active process whereby the learner creates schemas based on actively participating in the learning process, so therefore cognitive psychological learning theories and research firmly stand behind the PBL approach. You might want to look that one up on Wikipedia? You will be doing at least a little PBL no matter which course you choose. Doctors are supposed to integrate scientific knowledge with expertise and experience to solve the patient's dilemma. That's what PBL teaches you to do. It prepares you for a life of teaching yourself new things and integrating your knowledge. And that's why no matter where you go, you will have to solve problems at SOME stage before you hit the wards, so I'd rather get used to it early on...

And finally, what in God's name are you gaining from this? You havent considered the people who a) really want to come to UL and strongly believe in the approach because of the actual (not hearsay like yourself) research they've done or b) the people that didn't have a choice because of financial or familial reasons. A few people in UL have families in Limerick. How bad do you think you are making them feel by posting your unresearched bull?You of all people should know the agony of sitting Gamsat, and that some people dont have the money or time that you had to become the "serial Gamsatter" that you are. By the way, you need to have EMPATHY to become a doctor...another wikipedia check for you perhaps?

You have NO IDEA what you're talking about, so do us a favour and please stop posting here.

Sid_Justice · 07-06-2011 3:23pm

MrsStuffings wrote: »

pharmacy from trinity actually Sid.

ya thats what i meant. if theres a hundred in the class, and you're in groups of ten, does that mean the same tutorial is ran ten times?

~15 in a class and 6 times. Sure why are you concerned about pharm teaching if you know it all already?

watawaster · 07-06-2011 6:31pm

Jese ljg1 take a chill pill.

I spoke to a few UL first years in october last, and they were the first raise the low cost argument with me. They felt that their fees were funding the new medical school, while they taught themselves medicine.

All the same, I still think it is a cool way to learn.

MrsStuffings · 07-06-2011 7:28pm

Sid_Justice wrote: »

~15 in a class and 6 times. Sure why are you concerned about pharm teaching if you know it all already?

i'm not concerned about my knowledge of pharm, im concerned about pharm teaching in UL in general and the doctors being produced; i'm concerned about the standard of doctors being released onto the wards who have ''NO IDEA'' what they're doing. people who have taught themselves medicine off the internet, or from picture books, or off some pirated kaplan dvds. i wouldnt expect you to agree with me sid, nor would i expect anyone from UL to agree with me. doesnt mean my points arent valid.

i apologise if i've come across as hostile in my posts. perhaps my 68 in the gamsat has made me come across that bit smug, and i apologise. i look forward to seeing some of you in september.

ljg1 · 07-06-2011 7:51pm

MrsStuffings wrote: »

i'm not concerned about my knowledge of pharm, im concerned about pharm teaching in UL in general and the doctors being produced; i'm concerned about the standard of doctors being released onto the wards who have ''NO IDEA'' what they're doing. people who have taught themselves medicine off the internet, or from picture books, or off some pirated kaplan dvds. i wouldnt expect you to agree with me sid, nor would i expect anyone from UL to agree with me. doesnt mean my points arent valid.

i apologise if i've come across as hostile in my posts. perhaps my 68 in the gamsat has made me come across that bit smug, and i apologise. i look forward to seeing some of you in september.

As has been pointed out to you in the other thread more than once, UL students have to complete the exact same rotations as other colleges in the clinical years. Finals are based on clinical and written exams and examined by externs who are doctors. These students wouldn't be "released" if they didn't know their stuff.

The reason your points couldn't possibly be valid is because validity is based on sound evidence and you did not go here nor did you complete the two clinical years in hospitals, so you couldn't possibly know whether the doctors produced here are competent or not. I don't know why you keep trying to labour these points when everyone has already showed you how wrong you are. If you're not going to UL or even considering it, then why do you keep on posting?

SpiderP · 07-06-2011 9:20pm

I'm really having a hard time trying to understand how someone who's not actually in a medical school at the minute has become so opinionated on the matter and is so devoted to putting down a medical school she's never actually attended. Long and short, MrsStuffings get a hold of yourself and actually listen to the tripe you're come out with.

I've worked with a lot of junior doctors during my time as a hospital pharmacist (Ireland and UK) and have come to the conclusion that the university a doctor has attended doesn't determine whether or not they make a good one or not. One of the worst I have ever worked with was a Cambridge graduate, and needless to say I think it's safe to say Cambridge is not a substandard medical school. From what I've seen, the best ones were those who were good at dealing with people, good at getting jobs done, were approachable and clearly got on with those around them.

No one relies on junior doctors "expertise" in any particular area for one very good reason - they have none. And these are the people who've actually been through a medical degree. On a ward, other staff (nurses, physios, pharmacists, dieticians, social workers etc) don't care where you went. They only care about one thing, getting the job done. Specifically, getting the job you want them to do, done. UL graduates, like students of all other medical schools, will only prove themselves as individuals once they step onto the wards. There'll be bad ones, there'll be good ones, like everything else in life. So spare us please of your judgements MrsStuffings, they're clearly worthless.

Sid_Justice · 08-06-2011 1:47am

MrsStuffings wrote: »

i'm not concerned about my knowledge of pharm, im concerned about pharm teaching in UL in general and the doctors being produced; i'm concerned about the standard of doctors being released onto the wards who have ''NO IDEA'' what they're doing. people who have taught themselves medicine off the internet, or from picture books, or off some pirated kaplan dvds. i wouldnt expect you to agree with me sid, nor would i expect anyone from UL to agree with me. doesnt mean my points arent valid.

i apologise if i've come across as hostile in my posts. perhaps my 68 in the gamsat has made me come across that bit smug, and i apologise. i look forward to seeing some of you in september.

Agree with you about what? That I am learning medicine 'from the internet' that I have 'no idea' about anything or that all UL graduates will have 'no idea' what they're doing. Do you actually have any idea what is taught in a Medical course? There are about 20 'core' text books, the big 6 are Guyton's Medical Physiology, Ross and Pawlina's Histology, Kumar and Clark's Clinical Medicine (most north American's use Harrison's though), Robin and Coltran's Pathology, and Rang and Dale's Pharmacology and Moore and Daley's Clinically Oriented Anatomy. There are many other Atlases of Human anatomy used on occasion (picture books?). All the fundamental basic sciences of the clinical years are in these books more or less. We do a lot of Embryology using Langman's, and then from week to week use the relevant Biochemistry / Genetics / Micro books as they come up. Acland's anatomy videos are also very good.

I think I'm gaining a better insight on your point of view now. It seems to chiefly dwell around the teaching mechanism of anatomy and the fact we don't have didactic lectures and cadaver dissections. Your rational seems to be that when we're on the wards doing rounds and the consultant is showing us a patient with focal neurological deficits due to a Stroke we won't be able to appreciate the pathophysiology, clinical features or treatments because 4 years previously we didn't dissect a brain.

The reason your points aren't 'valid' is because you're speaking from a position of ignorance. Your understanding of medicine and its teaching is naive. Your knowledge of the UL course is based on what your pal told you. In fairness you do know a fair bit about the course and the observations you've made are quite valid while your interpretations seem to be further off the mark. I think your definitely right ,carrying your type of attitude into this course would be a massive hindrance and you're right to go to RCSI. Why gamble on somewhere like UL when RCSI have been around for over a hundred years producing high calibre graduates.

I'd imagine SpiderP's experiences are very close to the truth, a lot of Junior Doctor quality comes down to individual traits.

Scientist1 · 08-06-2011 2:49am

Can Mrs Stuffings please be kicked off of Boards? Every time I am genuinely looking for info I keep coming across the same stupid useless argument. And in relation to your smugness, did you not have to sit the exam THREE times to obtain that score!!!!

Anyway, I am wondering If anyone is else freaking about the lateness of the CAO offers? I'm working full-time (long hours, shift-work) and I've signed a contract which states that I will give at least 4 weeks notice If leaving...If you are offered a late place, does that mean you can start a bit later???Is there a cut-off date for registration? Is there a cut-off date for loan applications and how long does the loan take???

Surely, people can't accept an offer, finish work, pack up, move, find somewhere to live, apply for loan etc etc in a week or two???

TC80 · 08-06-2011 3:49am

SpiderP wrote: »

I'm really having a hard time trying to understand how someone who's not actually in a medical school at the minute has become so opinionated on the matter and is so devoted to putting down a medical school she's never actually attended. Long and short, MrsStuffings get a hold of yourself and actually listen to the tripe you're come out with.

I've worked with a lot of junior doctors during my time as a hospital pharmacist (Ireland and UK) and have come to the conclusion that the university a doctor has attended doesn't determine whether or not they make a good one or not. One of the worst I have ever worked with was a Cambridge graduate, and needless to say I think it's safe to say Cambridge is not a substandard medical school. From what I've seen, the best ones were those who were good at dealing with people, good at getting jobs done, were approachable and clearly got on with those around them.

No one relies on junior doctors "expertise" in any particular area for one very good reason - they have none. And these are the people who've actually been through a medical degree. On a ward, other staff (nurses, physios, pharmacists, dieticians, social workers etc) don't care where you went. They only care about one thing, getting the job done. Specifically, getting the job you want them to do, done. UL graduates, like students of all other medical schools, will only prove themselves as individuals once they step onto the wards. There'll be bad ones, there'll be good ones, like everything else in life. So spare us please of your judgements MrsStuffings, they're clearly worthless.

I would agree with every word of this post apart from that highlighted in bold which is deeply misguided and quite frankly patronising. "junior doctors" practice about 90% of the acute in-patient medicine and I would estimate about 50% of specialist out-patient medicine in this country. I personally have 9 years postgraduate experience, clocking up tens of thousands of hours of clinical experience including 2 higher degrees. While I am still learning (and will be learning until the day I retire), I do bring a degree of expertise to my job which is relied on in an interdependent manner with the other members of my clinical unit and the wider multidisciplinary team. I think this comment lets down your excellent post

In response to Mrs Stuffings crowings about RCSI vs UL: When I was a student graduates of RCSI were frequently subjected to unfair prejudices based on where they went to med school I find it ironic that you are now looking down on UL. I can only assume you do not represent the vast majority of your peers. To imagine otherwise would be depressing.

MrsStuffings · 08-06-2011 7:14pm

ljg1 wrote: »

As has been pointed out to you in the other thread more than once, UL students have to complete the exact same rotations as other colleges in the clinical years. Finals are based on clinical and written exams and examined by externs who are doctors. These students wouldn't be "released" if they didn't know their stuff.

The reason your points couldn't possibly be valid is because validity is based on sound evidence and you did not go here nor did you complete the two clinical years in hospitals, so you couldn't possibly know whether the doctors produced here are competent or not. I don't know why you keep trying to labour these points when everyone has already showed you how wrong you are. If you're not going to UL or even considering it, then why do you keep on posting?

please, correct my ignorance so and enlighten me so my dear about the amount of pharmacology and biochemistry you learned this year.

how many lectures did you get in each?

is it not well documented in medical circles that there is next to no pharmacology being taught in UL, as clearly evinced by the 3rd and 4th years who are currently on placement. its no secret that they didnt have a clue when they stepped on the wards. id be interested to know how UL have rectified this, you seem to know more so please enlighten me.

i'm continuing to post because i'm fully entitled to offer my opinion; you on the other hand have some indignant high and mighty attitude about you that inhibits you from acknowledging or admitting the flaws in your medical education.

at least sid has the decency to admit that i'm right in what i've said, you however appear to be blinded to the fact.

chanste · 08-06-2011 8:17pm

I'm just wrapping up 2nd year in UL at the moment and just thought I'd mention that the medical school was quite open about some of its weaknesses when the faculty discussed things with our class. But please bear in mind the first graduates of the school are only finishing up now so anything people have heard about people from UL on the wards are referring to students.

Pharmacology was identified as falling short and it is being addressed by being incorporated into our anatomy cases/sessions and having them appoint a new professor in pharmacology. We were also warned to place more emphasis on it in our self directed learning because it would be examined at a very high standard. I personally feel I'm ok at it and could compete with anyone at the same level in another medical school.

Pharmacology aside though I really would like to plug UL as an excellent medical school. I find the faculty are very eager to make improvements, I genuinely can't imagine another person I've ever learned more from than our anatomy professor, and they are very aware that in the early days they are having to set high standards through exams etc because people are waiting to judge us... many with pre-formed judgements.

The PBL curriculum is excellent though not for everyone, I personally find it is a bit of a kick in the ass to get you on top of things because you do not want to be the guy who shows up having not completed learning objectives as you'll be spotted very quickly.

Also in case anyone thinks there is no one in UL who also got high GAMSAT scores they are very wrong, the points are low because it has about 100 places when other med schools have significantly less, but for most people in the West UL and Cork are going to be every bit as popular as UCD and RCSI are for people from Dublin. Most will make their choice based on geography IMO.

ljg1 · 08-06-2011 8:50pm

MrsStuffings wrote: »

please, correct my ignorance so and enlighten me so my dear about the amount of pharmacology and biochemistry you learned this year.

how many lectures did you get in each?

is it not well documented in medical circles that there is next to no pharmacology being taught in UL, as clearly evinced by the 3rd and 4th years who are currently on placement. its no secret that they didnt have a clue when they stepped on the wards. id be interested to know how UL have rectified this, you seem to know more so please enlighten me.

i'm continuing to post because i'm fully entitled to offer my opinion; you on the other hand have some indignant high and mighty attitude about you that inhibits you from acknowledging or admitting the flaws in your medical education.

at least sid has the decency to admit that i'm right in what i've said, you however appear to be blinded to the fact.

If you care so much, why don't you come down to Limerick and speak directly to the Dean of Education?

Why do you keep going on about whats being "taught"? This isn't a didactic course, its PBL based. You will not be spoon fed on the wards, nor as a doctor who engages in lifelong learning and research. This is a new course. It was inevitable that there were going to be teething problems. I never said it was perfect. If you think that other courses are without flaws then thats fine but its not realistic. At least the UL Medical School take on board suggestions and adapt the course each year to improve it.

The college was made aware of the weaknesses and is compensating for that by changing the official learning objectives list to include alot of pharm.
We are constantly being told that the first two years of the course didn't know their pharmacology well enough but when they got to the wards they had to know it. This meant they had to sit down and teach themselves it during their placement. Yes that was extremely unfair, but this has changed now. They wouldn't have passed their exams if they didn't know it. Afterall its external examiners who examine them.

We use Rang and Dale, Goodman and Gilman, Lippincott, Pharm at a Glance, Firstaid for USMLE and most importantly UpToDate just like anyone else. We are given a class of drugs or more to learn each week. We are asked questions about the MISCI, pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of all drugs in minicases given by our anatomy/physiology lecturer which are examined on Mondays. The pharmacology of specific drugs is part of our official learning objective list for example we will be told to "Describe the pharmacology of anticoagulant drugs". You get out your books and you put that info in your brain and then you come to PBL and discuss it. Just like when any new drug comes out (I'm not quite sure but I think this happens oh every day), I'll know how and where to look for information and teach myself.

Sure, I sometimes wish someone would just tell me how a drug works, but I personally won't remember that, so this method suits me better.

I completely understand people having reservations about a new course. I think UL are very honest about it on the open evening. The head of the college specifically said "If you aren't self-motivated this course is not for you". Did you attend?

I cant offer you anymore enlightenment on this. So please, please give it a rest. If you dont like how things are done in UL then just please stop posting your negativity. I know for a fact you're not helping anyone, even if you think you are. I'm not an advocate of didactic learning techniques but I dont go around blasting every college and university for using them, I just know that they dont suit me.

watawaster · 08-06-2011 11:02pm

I take back my previous comment.

Shut the fu*k up Mrs Stuffings, you're like a bad smell that won't go away...

UL Medicine

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