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M28 - Cork to Ringaskiddy [advance works ongoing; 2025 start; 2028 completion]

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭cantalach


    Hibernicis wrote: »
    but I'm not sure if an application for leave to appeal will appear here.

    This is the application for leave to appeal. They have already lost the case before the High Court. If they don’t get leave to appeal, they have to directly petition the Supreme Court.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    cantalach wrote: »
    This is the application for leave to appeal. They have already lost the case before the High Court. If they don’t get leave to appeal, they have to directly petition the Supreme Court.

    Not sure what your point is, perhaps you’ve misunderstood me. That “This IS the application for leave to appeal” is not in dispute, it’s a fact. My uncertainty is whether or not MAC GRATH J’s decision on the application for leave to appeal will be published on the Judgements search page of the courts.ie website. Maybe you’d re-read my previous post and let me know if you’re still confused.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭cantalach


    Hibernicis wrote: »
    Not sure what your point is, perhaps you’ve misunderstood me. That “This IS the application for leave to appeal” is not in dispute, it’s a fact. My uncertainty is whether or not MAC GRATH J’s decision on the application for leave to appeal will be published on the Judgements search page of the courts.ie website. Maybe you’d re-read my previous post and let me know if you’re still confused.

    In your last message - the one to which I replied - you wrote, “I'm not sure if an application for leave to appeal will appear here.” That’s why I said that the application had already been lodged. But I now realise that you omitted a key word and meant to say that you weren’t sure if the decision on the application would be published there. The confusion was undoubtedly mine but due to a shorthand on your part. Thanks for clarifying though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,011 ✭✭✭high horse


    Has a decision been made or announced yet?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 800 ✭✭✭mydiscworld


    high horse wrote: »
    Has a decision been made or announced yet?

    Nothing yet
    https://www.courts.ie/judgments


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    Will we know today?


  • Registered Users Posts: 317 ✭✭steeler j


    Something on breakingnews website about it


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    No appeal allowed by Justice McGrath. Is this the end of the road?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    There is a god. Hopefully Harrington & Co. will take their medicine and go, but I reckon snobbery will get the better of them


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,555 ✭✭✭kub


    marno21 wrote: »

    Hopefully and at long last it is the start of the road ðŸ‘


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,755 ✭✭✭ianobrien


    As someone who would benefit greatly from the Steering Group's "suggestion" of going via Ballygarvan and the airport, I'm bloody delighted. The current N28 is so overwhelmed that any idiot could see that it's needed and the Kinsale Rd roundabout is fairly full in the morning. When it comes in, I'll be slow to use my rat run of the Ballygarvan - Ringaskiddy. I know people who use rat runs through Rochestown and Passage West who will be delighted with this.

    I'm still wondering was one of the reasons Brittany Ferries moved away from Ringaskiddy for the Spanish ferry to Rosslare is that, as the traffic is so bad at the Tunnel & on the N28, truckers couldn't time their journey time reliably? From talking to truckers on ferries out of Dublin and Rosslare, knowing your journey times to get to the boat is very important. They can't afford to spend an hour sitting on the N28 or the Tunnel


  • Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭Kevtherev1


    The M28 steering group stated their strategy on their facebook page June 2020. See the quote post below. As they have no certification to proceed to Court of Appeal. Their only option now is to ask the supreme court to hear their case. Justice McGrath has stated he not satisfied the points made by m28 steering group reached the high bar of being in the public interest to proceed further

    As a reminder.... the process requires us in the first instance to ask the high court for permission/ certification to proceed to the court of appeal......

    If the high court refuses certification we cannot go to the court of appeal and must proceed directly to the Supreme Court.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    marno21 wrote: »

    Great news. The Steering Group still have the option to petition the Supreme Court. The bar is high and they will need to have a very strong legal point in their favour to get a hearing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 990 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    Good news. However what are the chances of the Greens scuppering this with their anti road agenda. Catherine Martin will have to push it forward which surely won't play well with her party.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    Good news. However what are the chances of the Greens scuppering this with their anti road agenda. Catherine Martin will have to push it forward which surely won't play well with her party.

    Is Hildegarde Naughton not the one who is minister of state at the department of transport?


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Good news. However what are the chances of the Greens scuppering this with their anti road agenda. Catherine Martin will have to push it forward which surely won't play well with her party.

    No it’s under Hildegarde Naughton’s brief of roads air and sea. Dunkettle got approved a month ago and this is more strategic so there will be no issues there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭Kevtherev1


    Kevtherev1 wrote: »
    The M28 steering group stated their strategy on their facebook page June 2020. See the quote post below. As they have no certification to proceed to Court of Appeal. Their only option now is to ask the supreme court to hear their case. Justice McGrath has stated he not satisfied the points made by m28 steering group reached the high bar of being in the public interest to proceed further


    It would be unlikely the supreme court would hear their case. Appeal to supreme court only if several points of law are deemed of exceptional public interest. But who knows?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,578 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    But do the state have to wait for x amount of time for them to put in a supreme court appeal ..
    They were talking of going all the way to europe ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    Markcheese wrote: »
    But do the state have to wait for x amount of time for them to put in a supreme court appeal ..
    They were talking of going all the way to europe ..

    21 days

    European Union are part or fully funding it


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 800 ✭✭✭mydiscworld


    My guess is the steering group will wait the 21 days and lodge the appeal last minute to be heard by Surpreme Court.

    That ruling on whether they can get into Surpreme court will take months, even if likely rejected. Delay is the only game they have left I'd say.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭cantalach


    That ruling on whether they can get into Surpreme court will take months, even if likely rejected.

    Especially when the SC is down a man at the moment :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭Jlayay


    Motorway/regular Cork buses to Ringaskiddy, then a regular ferry service to the UK with rail connection to London would be handy enough.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Interesting times.

    The self appointed steering group have 21 days to petition the Supreme Court (previously this was 28 days, reduced to 21 days in 2019). In general these are lodged on the last day, and that is understandable given the coordination and other work involved. It’s a simple process, a one or two page document setting out the exceptional circumstances upon which it is contended that the granting of leave to appeal is necessary.

    It will be very interesting to see how this plays out. Costs must be mounting and this ruling will certainly test the nerve of (1) whoever it is that is bankrolling the M28 Steering Committee (2) the commitment of O’Connell & Clarke, solicitors to the M28 Steering Committee and “THE Environmental & Planning Litigation Firm” (also self appointed). 

    Very positive that the European route (CJEU) has been blocked off. This was a potential black hole that could have added 2/3 years to the process and I suspect was where O’Connell & Clarke wanted to take it for a bit of reputational enhancement. As the Donald would say, BIG WIN that this has been blocked off.

    Should the Steering Group decide to petition the Supreme Court (and I suspect they will, subject of course to the continued support of their financial backers and the forbearance and continued interest of O’Connell & Clarke) the Supreme Court can be expected to make a quick decision (generally within 2/3 months) on whether or not to allow the appeal. If the decision is No, then that is the end of the road (edit: appaling pun, it’s actually the start of the M28 getting built).  If the Supreme Court accepts the appeal then the time wasting will run for another couple of years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    And with that, we have the votes of the Norwegian Jury.... hot off the press from the Steering Group Facebook page
    High Court Dublin
    17th November 2020
    Certification for leave to appeal
    Refused
    _________________________________
    Hi all,
    Please be advised that our submission for leave to appeal the High Court judgement on 19th December 2019 has been refused, consequently we cannot proceed directly to the Court of Appeal.
    Whilst not unexpected it is still very disappointing to say the least.
    Todays decision gives effect for the M28 to proceed however it is our intention (should the legal advice suggest) to proceed to petition the Supreme Court to hear our case. Should the Supreme Court accept our petition for hearing then we move forward.
    Kind regards,
    Gerard Harrington
    Chairman
    M28 Steering Group


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    marno21 wrote: »

    The article you refer to is so appallingly inaccurate it needs to be called out. I’m quoting it in full for the record:
    Local residents who lost a legal challenge to An Bord Pleanala’s approval for a 14km M28 motorway between Cork and Ringaskiddy, were today told they cannot bring an appeal to the Supreme Court.

    Mr Justice Michael MacGrath in the High Court refused an umbrella group representing local residents, the M28 Steering Group, leave to appeal to the highest court in the land.

    The judge ruled he was not satisfied that the M28 Steering Group had raised points of law of exceptional public importance.

    They had sought leave to appeal under Section 50 of the Planning and Development Act which allows an appeal to the Supreme Court if the case involves points of law of exceptional public importance and it is in the public interest an appeal is taken.

    The High Court last December dismissed the challenge to An Bord Pleanala's June 2018 decision to grant approval for the motorway.

    Paragraph 1. They sought to appeal to the Court of Appeal (COA), not the Supreme Court (SC). 

    Paragraph 2.  They sought to appeal to the COA, not the “Highest Court in the land” which is the SC. 

    Paragraph 3. This isn’t a requirement when appealing to the COA.

    Paragraph 4. They didn’t seek leave to appeal to the SC.  They sought leave to appeal to the COA. 


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,755 ✭✭✭ianobrien




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    ianobrien wrote: »

    Correct, The Echo piece is far more accurate. The same piece by Ann O’Loughlin also appears in The Examiner

    The Irish Times has an article that is very similar to the one appearing in The Echo & Examiner and which bears no resemblance to the breakingnews.ie one (which is a bit odd given that breakingnews.ie is an offshoot of The Irish Times)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,241 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Just popping in to say thanks all for the updates and detailed information.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,555 ✭✭✭kub


    I heard an interview with Mr Harrington of The Steering Group earlier on a news segment, he bought up several points with regard to the proposed Motorway, such items as congestion, traffic fumes, safety etc.

    I could not help but wonder was he referring to the existing road.

    Anyway he did mention that they will attempt a Supreme Court hearing and if they are not allowed then they are finished with it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    I heard the same interview. Sure if the Supreme Court says no that’s it anyway, no?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    Good news. However what are the chances of the Greens scuppering this with their anti road agenda. Catherine Martin will have to push it forward which surely won't play well with her party.

    Hildegarde Naughton (a FG TD) is in charge of roads and other roads are going to be built during the lifetime of this Government. Indeed, the contract has been signed to make Dunkettle free flow only last month.

    The ratio is 2:1 after roads maintenance and cycling / walking have been excluded. So the more money that is available after those items have been allocated, the more money there is for both roads and public transport. So it's in the Green's interest for there to be more money on new roads projects as that means there will be more for public transport, too.

    A second point is that this project, along with the Limerick - Foynes scheme, are requirements under the EU's TEN-T directive. So that means even if there wasn't that guaranteed money on roads, this would have to be done to keep the EU happy.

    Anyway, it's a good day for the parish that this is getting one step closer, and that the route to Europe and to a Court of Appeal has been closed off, even if as predictably as night follows day, the so-called steering group wants to go to the Supreme Court.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,555 ✭✭✭kub


    Hildegarde Naughton (a FG TD) is in charge of roads and other roads are going to be built during the lifetime of this Government. Indeed, the contract has been signed to make Dunkettle free flow only last month.

    The ratio is 2:1 after roads maintenance and cycling / walking have been excluded. So the more money that is available after those items have been allocated, the more money there is for both roads and public transport. So it's in the Green's interest for there to be more money on new roads projects as that means there will be more for public transport, too.

    A second point is that this project, along with the Limerick - Foynes scheme, are requirements under the EU's TEN-T directive. So that means even if there wasn't that guaranteed money on roads, this would have to be done to keep the EU happy.

    Anyway, it's a good day for the parish that this is getting one step closer, and that the route to Europe and to a Court of Appeal has been closed off, even if as predictably as night follows day, the so-called steering group wants to go to the Supreme Court.


    With reference to The Green Party and this Government agreement, I wonder does this apply also to this project?


    I thought it was EU funds that were paying for the M28 as opposed to Government funds and this project is in the pipeline now for quite a few years.


    It also seems to me that at this stage all the Steering Committee have now is a mechanism to further delay the start of this project which will be going ahead regardless.


    It is a pity that they cannot see the greater good here rather than their own, now pointless claims.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Yes, M28 is EU-funded.

    To their credit, the Green Party has been largely mute on this project. Perhaps, like me, they realise that it's most likely to be a net gain to the environment: a freer-flowing route for goods traffic would actually reduce greenhouse emissions in the long run, and improve air quality. The fastest a HGV can travel is 80km/h, regardless of road type, so changing a road to one with less obstructions, sharp bends or steep gradients will result in a small fuel saving for every single journey. Yes, there's a huge carbon cost in constructing the road, but those fuel savings must offset it some way. The question is how much, and how long before the construction CO2 debt is repaid. I'd be interested to see if anyone has ever studied this and come up with a breakeven point on CO2 emissions from motorway construction.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    A HGV can do 90KM/H flat out on a motorway, albeit not on this one I suspect.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    https://play.acast.com/s/corks-96-fm-opinion-line/2020-11-18coradesmond-couldsheactuallykillme-thelatestfromthedebenhamspicketline-visitingnursinghomesinlockdown-more - 32 mins in

    Discussion with M28 Steering Group chair and the head of Cork Chamber.

    Very one sided interview. The M28 Steering Group are taking a case about protecting a wildlife habitat in Raffeen, scratching my head as to what trucks going through Rochestown has to do with that. Again with the trucks rumbling through back gardens stuff at the Cork Chamber CEO. They already do. The locals get the added benefit of having the best access to the Cork suburban road network of anywhere in the area.

    No questions directed towards the chairman about the quarry either and why a number of residents in Rochestown are funding a petition to the Supreme Court to protect a quarry in Raffeen.

    Doesn't really add up to me. Seems to me there's very little chance of this going any further. The Supreme Court is not the place where this sort of stuff gets decided on. The battle was lost at An Bord Pleanala.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    marno21 wrote: »
    https://play.acast.com/s/corks-96-fm-opinion-line/2020-11-18coradesmond-couldsheactuallykillme-thelatestfromthedebenhamspicketline-visitingnursinghomesinlockdown-more - 32 mins in

    Discussion with M28 Steering Group chair and the head of Cork Chamber.

    Very one sided interview. The M28 Steering Group are taking a case about protecting a wildlife habitat in Raffeen, scratching my head as to what trucks going through Rochestown has to do with that. Again with the trucks rumbling through back gardens stuff at the Cork Chamber CEO. They already do. The locals get the added benefit of having the best access to the Cork suburban road network of anywhere in the area.

    No questions directed towards the chairman about the quarry either and why a number of residents in Rochestown are funding a petition to the Supreme Court to protect a quarry in Raffeen.

    Doesn't really add up to me. Seems to me there's very little chance of this going any further. The Supreme Court is not the place where this sort of stuff gets decided on. The battle was lost at An Bord Pleanala.

    Marno i've C&P'd your post to add it to the 'Douglas for M28' Facebook group. If that's ok with you?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,555 ✭✭✭kub


    marno21 wrote: »
    https://play.acast.com/s/corks-96-fm-opinion-line/2020-11-18coradesmond-couldsheactuallykillme-thelatestfromthedebenhamspicketline-visitingnursinghomesinlockdown-more - 32 mins in

    Discussion with M28 Steering Group chair and the head of Cork Chamber.

    Very one sided interview. The M28 Steering Group are taking a case about protecting a wildlife habitat in Raffeen, scratching my head as to what trucks going through Rochestown has to do with that. Again with the trucks rumbling through back gardens stuff at the Cork Chamber CEO. They already do. The locals get the added benefit of having the best access to the Cork suburban road network of anywhere in the area.

    No questions directed towards the chairman about the quarry either and why a number of residents in Rochestown are funding a petition to the Supreme Court to protect a quarry in Raffeen.

    Doesn't really add up to me. Seems to me there's very little chance of this going any further. The Supreme Court is not the place where this sort of stuff gets decided on. The battle was lost at An Bord Pleanala.


    The presenter of the show lives on Maryborough Hill, maybe that is why it seemed a bit one sided.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    kub wrote: »
    The presenter of the show lives on Maryborough Hill, maybe that is why it seemed a bit one sided.

    He never says he was for it either, I think he has his own reservations on it


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 800 ✭✭✭mydiscworld


    So if they do appeal to try to go to supreme court, how long before a hearing? And then a decision? Could be 6+ months yet


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    So if they do appeal to try to go to supreme court, how long before a hearing? And then a decision? Could be 6+ months yet

    The Supreme Court have to agree to hear it first, there’s no guarantees they will say yes to that


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,985 ✭✭✭mikeym


    I think Pj Cogan should be worried about future congestion of Maryborough Hill with all the new housing sprouting up.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,561 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    mikeym wrote: »
    I think Pj Cogan should be worried about future congestion of Maryborough Hill with all the new housing sprouting up.

    That development had direct access to the new interchange being built.

    That was until residence went crazy about it. They’ll be the first ones looking for access when they realise what a mistake they’ve made.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    So if they do appeal to try to go to supreme court, how long before a hearing? And then a decision? Could be 6+ months yet

    It’s very difficult to estimate the timelines. As of today, Mr Justice MacGrath’s order does not appear to have been perfected (signed by a Registrar). This can take anything from days to months. The plaintiffs have 21 days from the date the order is perfected to apply to the Supreme Court for leave to appeal. Assuming that they apply for leave to appeal, the three judge bench of the supreme court will issue a determination (grant or refuse permission for the appeal). These determinations are often (but not always) issued relatively quickly (say 3/4 months). If all of this happens reasonably quickly and leave to appeal is refused, then that is the end of the road for the objections and the project could be reactivated by mid 2021. If on the other hand the appeal is granted, and depending on the complexity of the arguments, it could be 12-24 months before there is a decision. If that were favorable (allowing the M28 to proceed) then we are looking at the project restarting in 2022 or 2023. If it appeal were to be upheld and the EIA has to be redone, then it’s anybody’s guess as to when the project might restart, never mind finish.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    https://www.mixcloud.com/LifeBroadcast1/gerard-harrington-from-the-m28-steering-group/?fbclid=IwAR2NSAuWrCivP-HVJt_-mxO6FiNeEN1vuK0NJffPWGAxjYh75MV6li-8v2c

    Interview (actually pretty much an unchallenged monologue) on 93.1 Life FM** with Justin Gerard Harrington, Chairman (self appointed) of the M28 Steering Group (also self appointed). Absolutely nothing new in this, same indignant litany that has been rehashed over and over. But interesting that Rafeen Quarry didn’t get a mention given that it formed almost the entire basis for the Judicial Review. There is one hilarious segment where he attempts to explain that their proposal to route traffic from the M8 at Watergrasshill via the M40 (N) to Ballincollig and then on to Cork Airport and finally to Shannonpark roundabout was far more efficient than routing it via the proposed M28 to the “Dead End Junction at Bloomfield”

    ** for anyone wondering what 93.1 Life FM is here are some details lifted from LifeFM.ie....... At 7am on the 16th of March 2008, LifeFM began to "shine the light of Christ over Cork" for the first time ever. LifeFM broadcasts over Cork City on 93.1FM, providing a broad range of programmes that will inform, challenge and entertain while maintaining Christian values throughout.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,581 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Worth going to the BAI with that about balance. Micro stations think they can get away with basically everything because their listeners are going to be entirely onboard with their stuff; so there are very few complaints.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭cantalach


    Hibernicis wrote: »
    ** for anyone wondering what 93.1 Life FM is here are some details lifted from LifeFM.ie....... At 7am on the 16th of March 2008, LifeFM began to "shine the light of Christ over Cork" for the first time ever. LifeFM broadcasts over Cork City on 93.1FM, providing a broad range of programmes that will inform, challenge and entertain while maintaining Christian values throughout.


    Though not the Christian value of honesty, clearly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    In fairness, look where being honest got Jesus...


    I really can't see this group being granted a hearing by the Supreme Court. They will of course apply, because the money obviously isn't a problem for them, and they are still convinced that they have a case, despite all contrary evidence.

    I hope it gets refused quickly so that work can begin. With Brexit arriving next year, and the prospect of more sea-only routes opening to the continent, port access for trucks will become a much bigger deal than it is at the moment. (This would also put pressure to get M20 done, as it and M28 would create a motorway corridor from Port of Cork right up the West coast to Galway.)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,561 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Have to wonder where the funding is coming from.

    They’ve attempted fund raising exercises which resulted in quite poor turnouts. If they are self funding, then it is a very expensive exercise.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭Cork Trucker


    I see that Steering Group member Paul Kelleher has passed away suddenly yesterday.

    4-EBAEE86-6-A8-E-421-A-955-D-0-BD829-D20-B1-D.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 317 ✭✭steeler j


    I see that Steering Group member Paul Kelleher has passed away suddenly yesterday.

    4-EBAEE86-6-A8-E-421-A-955-D-0-BD829-D20-B1-D.png
    Wether agree or disagree about the m28 ,it's still very sad ,rip and condolences to his family


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