When/why did SF become so pro EU ?

FrancieBrady · 06-11-2019 11:14am

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

The party even recruits people to become Sinn Féin Online Supporters (aka Shinnerbots) and devote their time to promoting/defending Sinn Féin online.

It's an organized operation across social media.

BINGO! We have the card full now.

Do we HAVE to do this again?

Perma...again as shown by your link they are open and transparent about that, what is the big conspiracy around it?

maccored is a member and is open about it as are a few others here.

I am not and never have been or will be a member of any political party. My politics would not suit a political party as they are not easily defined. SF's stance on the EU, past and present would find no support in the Francie Party.

FTA69 · 06-11-2019 11:17am

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

The party even recruits people to become Sinn Féin Online Supporters (aka Shinnerbots) and devote their time to promoting/defending Sinn Féin online.

It's an organized operation across social media.

Every political party does this or is beginning to do this. You should see the social media operations in Britain if you think this is bad. As traditional oligarch-owned media declines in importance, online stuff will become even more prevalent.

Personally I hate clicktivist bollocks but there you are.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 06-11-2019 11:25am

FTA69 wrote: »

I was a member of SF for years. SF used to be wholly anti-EU, then would have been what’s called ‘Eurosceptic’ in the sense they thought that the EU eroded sovereignty and was integral to neo-liberal capitalism and now they seem to have become a lot more pro-EU.

That makes a lot more sense than the "SF have always been pro-EU" revisionist BS that maccored is parroting.

That said, just 7 years ago, Mary Lou and Nigel Farage were appearing together to oppose an EU treaty. So I don't buy that they have become "pro-EU."

Currently, they are masquerading as "pro-EU" to differentiate themselves from Tory Eurosceptics — but they'll be back to form again as soon as Brexit is done and another EU treaty appears for ratification.

BoJack Horseman · 06-11-2019 11:28am

The Shinners are pretending to be pro-EU now for the reason they pretended to be anti-EU for the last four decades......

.... because it's politically expedient at the given moment.

Sinn Fein are the ultimate pragmatists.

If a policy isn't useful... It's binned.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 06-11-2019 11:28am

FTA69 wrote: »

Every political party does this or is beginning to do this. You should see the social media operations in Britain if you think this is bad.

The issue is not so much with recruiting supporters as using them in the service of Orwellian revisionism — of the "Gerry was never in the IRA" or "SF have always been pro-EU" variety.

SF seem to assume that if they can get enough people repeating the same lies on social media, the lies will gradually become accepted as the truth.

It's straight out of the "We have never been at war with Eastasia" playbook.

weldoninhio · 06-11-2019 11:29am

Todays SF are like the alphabet soup parties. They jump on anything populist. It's such a pity as they could have taken Labours place as the party for the normal working person after Labours demise, but they jumped on the woke bandwagon. I used to think they were an alternative to vote for instead of FF/G, but they are pointless now.

FTA69 · 06-11-2019 11:31am

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

The issue is not so much with recruiting supporters as using them in the service of Orwellian revisionism — of the "Gerry was never in the IRA" or "SF have always been pro-EU" variety.

SF seem to assume that if they can get enough people repeating the same lies on social media, the lies will gradually become accepted as the truth.

It's straight out of the "We have never been at war with Eastasia" playbook.

Of course they’re lying, all politicians are liars essentially.

piplip87 · 06-11-2019 11:31am

Money is at the heart of everything SF do. They claim to be socialists against the 1% but a dinner in the US with Mary Lou and Gerry not in the IRA will set you back thousands..... I guess against the 1% the does not donate to Friends of SF.

They don't take Thier seats in Westminster which is fair enough and I understand exactly why they don't. They still contest the elections and still claim salaries and expenses so I guess once again they don't want they get money from the British Taxpayer to do nothing..... Money over everything else it seems.

As for the EU all parties change positions on issues and evolve but the shift has been so quick and I suppose if your getting a good lump of MEP wages paid back to the party it's worthwhile.

Lost every EU referendum they opposed .... With the exception of the ones that where put to the people after the defeat, after the government of the day got changes and clarifications to the original ones.....

So in essence SF will always change Thier tune when money is involved or if it's a chance to beat to other side. .

FrancieBrady · 06-11-2019 11:32am

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

That makes a lot more sense than the "SF have always been pro-EU" revisionist BS that maccored is parroting.

That said, just 7 years ago, Mary Lou and Nigel Farage were appearing together to oppose an EU treaty. So I don't buy that they have become "pro-EU."

Currently, they are masquerading as "pro-EU" to differentiate themselves from Tory Eurosceptics — but they'll be back to form again as soon as Brexit is done and another EU treaty appears for ratification.

And if is a treaty that increases integration then opposing it would be entirely in keeping with their stated position.

Why not stop the conspiracy theorising and research what they are openly saying.
They are not 'hiding' it. This from a few months ago.

Speaking at the Sligo Citizens Dialogue on the Future of Europe, Matt Carthy said that constructive criticism was needed to make the EU work better, and that this should not be seen, as a question of being in or out of the EU or out of the EU:

“What Sinn Féin wants is a European Union that works for the people of Europe, not for EU insiders, corporate interests or established political parties from the larger states.”

Saying that the euro crisis was a severe blow to the idea of solidarity between member states, he said:

“People across Europe are rejecting the EU model that has created winners and losers, precarious employment, wealth inequality, debt dependent growth and privatised public services. A failure to recognise this will pose a threat to the future of the European Union itself.”

https://www.mattcarthy.ie/the-european-union-must-be-radically-reformed-carthy/

You are like someone who keeps walking into walls because you just steadfastly refuse to see the wall.

Danzy · 06-11-2019 11:35am

weldoninhio wrote: »

Todays SF are like the alphabet soup parties. They jump on anything populist. It's such a pity as they could have taken Labours place as the party for the normal working person after Labours demise, but they jumped on the woke bandwagon. I used to think they were an alternative to vote for instead of FF/G, but they are pointless now.

It's become a very right on movement, dominated by young middle class activists. Especially in Dublin.

Which is affecting its vote.

Pity.

FrancieBrady · 06-11-2019 11:39am

Danzy wrote: »

It's become a very right on movement, dominated by young middle class activists. Especially in Dublin.

Pity.

A political movement documented and fed by meme's.

Danzy · 06-11-2019 11:42am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A political movement documented and fed by meme's.

No, a lot of them have a massive work ethic.

Look at many of the party advisers in the Dáil, where are you going when that is who is advising you.

Out of touch.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 06-11-2019 11:43am

FTA69 wrote: »

Of course they’re lying, all politicians are liars essentially.

Sinn Fein's behavior is far worse than the typical lying of politicians. Its party culture is so steeped in denial, obfuscation, revisionism, and propaganda that they can say and do one thing yesterday and another today — but when challenged, insist that their stance has been consistent all along. They do that over and over and over, deconstructing the boundary between "truth" and "lies" to the point where it feels like some absurdist Derridean hall of mirrors.

jimgoose · 06-11-2019 11:44am

Broadly speaking, SF policy can be summed up as whatever annoys the Brits/unionists.

facehugger99 · 06-11-2019 11:45am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

My politics would not suit a political party as they are not easily defined. SF's stance on the EU, past and present would find no support in the Francie Party.

Over 25,000 posts - I bet you'd be hard-pressed to fish out a couple that have criticised SF policy.

As soon as this thread was started you were all over it defending the Shinner line (yet again).

I'm sure most posters take your denials of SF membership about as seriously as Gerry's non-IRA membership.

You're fooling no one lad.

FrancieBrady · 06-11-2019 11:46am

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

but when challenged, insist that their stance has been consistent all along. .

So you are just gonna stick to the conspiracy theory and ignore links that show consistency?

Very good. Talk about moving the conversation along.

FrancieBrady · 06-11-2019 11:48am

facehugger99 wrote: »

Over 25,000 posts - I bet you'd be hard-pressed to fish out a couple that have criticised SF policy.

As soon as this thread was started you were all over it defending the Shinner line (yet again).

I'm sure most posters take your denials of SF membership about as seriously as Gerry's non-IRA membership.

You're fooling no one lad.

The BINGO has been won this thread FH. Sorry.

blanch152 · 06-11-2019 11:50am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

BINGO! We have the card full now.

Do we HAVE to do this again?

Perma...again as shown by your link they are open and transparent about that, what is the big conspiracy around it?

maccored is a member and is open about it as are a few others here.

I am not and never have been or will be a member of any political party. My politics would not suit a political party as they are not easily defined. SF's stance on the EU, past and present would find no support in the Francie Party.

You forgot to acknowledge copyright on that image, another poster has exclusive usage of that image for whataboutery purposes.

Thanks for the explanation of your politics. You will excuse me if I find it a little bizarre. This is how I see it.

A member of Sinn Fein - maccored (as you say he is) - states that Sinn Fein were always pro-EU. He subsequently gets correctly and rightly called out by many other posters for being wrong, many of whom produce links to back up what they are saying. A neutral observer like yourself, accidentally happens across a thread on Sinn Fein, produce evidence to back up those who said maccored was wrong. So far, so good, but this is where it gets into GUBU territory.

Despite having produced evidence to back up the assertion that Sinn Fein were previously anti-EU and have changed policy over the years, rather than suggesting maccored was wrong, you turn on those who disagreed with him calling them hypocrites, "the usual guys", lambasted the usual trite comments etc. Truly bizarre, when in substance you actually agree with us that maccored was in error.

However, the icing on the cake has to be when you say "SF's stance on the EU, past and present would find no support in the Francie Party". That must mean you are both pro-EU and anti-EU or neither. GUBU doesn't do it justice.

blanch152 · 06-11-2019 11:54am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

ALL parties evolve their policy positions, that is a given, I can demonstrate that to you about any party on this island. People also evolve their positions. But do I really need to demonstrate it?

Great, so only a few decades more of evolution before Sinn Fein can be considered a normal political party.

Next can we have an evolution of their policy on abstentionism to one that states that they will take their seats in Westminister for Brexit issues only? That would be a good next step in their evolution. After that, an acknowledgement that the IRA terrorist campaign was wrong and an apology for their support of that terrorism would go a very long way to healing divisions in the North.

Or is it that evolution is only possible in an Orwellian sense?

FTA69 · 06-11-2019 12:00pm

SF in general is a run of the mill social democratic party at this stage that wants to bring about Irish unity and generally make the economic and social system in Ireland a bit fairer. In general their policy toward Europe reflects that, it isn’t some grand policy of mass deception in that regard.

If I was in the south of Ireland I’d probably vote for them as they represent some semblance of left opposition to the FF/FG axis who are essentially identical. In the north however their only priority seems to be ‘unity’ and a large swathe of their senior members are bloody landlords and business owners while adopting the rhetoric of being a radical movement for change. Stormont is basically a sh*t-show in which two parties squabble over whatever crumbs a London government decides to give them.

Funnily enough last time I was home I was being playfully castigated by a SF member for being involved with the British Labour Party despite calling myself a Republican. The reality is that Labour and SF’s policy on Ireland is largely identical, unity via consent and social democratic economic policies. There’s a not a massive difference between the parties currently.

FTA69 · 06-11-2019 12:03pm

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

Sinn Fein's behavior is far worse than the typical lying of politicians. Its party culture is so steeped in denial, obfuscation, revisionism, and propaganda that they can say and do one thing yesterday and another today — but when challenged, insist that their stance has been consistent all along. They do that over and over and over, deconstructing the boundary between "truth" and "lies" to the point where it feels like some absurdist Derridean hall of mirrors.

Yeah the point stays the same. All parties in Ireland gloss over their political history. The Labour Party has had its candidates funded by Official IRA racketeering and robberies when they were in the Workers’ Party, Fine Gael used to be associated with organised fascism and FF were corrupt as anyone in Berlusconi’s Italy at one stage.

The idea that other political organisations are pillars of honesty in comparison to SF is rubbish.

ELM327 · 06-11-2019 12:04pm

It's the great thing about hurling from the ditches, you just say whatever is popular with no fear of having to implement anything

FrancieBrady · 06-11-2019 12:07pm

blanch152 wrote: »

You forgot to acknowledge copyright on that image, another poster has exclusive usage of that image for whataboutery purposes.

Thanks for the explanation of your politics. You will excuse me if I find it a little bizarre. This is how I see it.

A member of Sinn Fein - maccored (as you say he is) - states that Sinn Fein were always pro-EU. He subsequently gets correctly and rightly called out by many other posters for being wrong, many of whom produce links to back up what they are saying. A neutral observer like yourself, accidentally happens across a thread on Sinn Fein, produce evidence to back up those who said maccored was wrong. So far, so good, but this is where it gets into GUBU territory.

Despite having produced evidence to back up the assertion that Sinn Fein were previously anti-EU and have changed policy over the years, rather than suggesting maccored was wrong, you turn on those who disagreed with him calling them hypocrites, "the usual guys", lambasted the usual trite comments etc. Truly bizarre, when in substance you actually agree with us that maccored was in error.

However, the icing on the cake has to be when you say "SF's stance on the EU, past and present would find no support in the Francie Party". That must mean you are both pro-EU and anti-EU or neither. GUBU doesn't do it justice.

Please review the posts before maccored said anything, then have another go at that wee rant.

My views on the EU are (and they are expressed on here many times) that it has made a massive difference to the prosperity of this country, has been critical to peace on the island, and that I would have no problem with some closer integration up to and including an examination of a European Army (still not sold on that idea) because I hate the idea of the US and UK dominated entity of NATO.

How closely does that align with the party that 'pays me' allegedly to online bot for them?

maccored · 06-11-2019 12:13pm

blanch152 wrote: »

A member of Sinn Fein - maccored (as you say he is) - states that Sinn Fein were always pro-EU. He subsequently gets correctly and rightly called out by many other posters for being wrong,.

wrong because sinn fein of the 1970s didnt want the EU? SF changed in the 80s and developed further in the 90s and accepted EU membership. They are critical of the EU - as they rightly should be - but they have not 'become so pro EU' recently, as incorrectly stated by yourself and others. Its a stance they have had for a few decades at this stage.

Those are the facts, and if you got lost trying to get your head around them, its no skin off my teeth.

FrancieBrady · 06-11-2019 12:13pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Yeah the point stays the same. All parties in Ireland gloss over their political history. The Labour Party has had its candidates funded by Official IRA racketeering and robberies when they were in the Workers’ Party, Fine Gael used to be associated with organised fascism and FF were corrupt as anyone in Berlusconi’s Italy at one stage.

The idea that other political organisations are pillars of honesty in comparison to SF is rubbish.

You can't be saying that, that's 'whataboutery' by all accounts!

FTA69 · 06-11-2019 12:21pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You can't be saying that, that's 'whataboutery' by all accounts!

“Why doesn’t Adams admit he was in the IRA??” - Pat Rabbitte, up to his bollocks in the Sticks for years.

I’m sick of it really, it’s boring and I honestly don’t think most people give a sh*t about it anymore.

FrancieBrady · 06-11-2019 12:33pm

FTA69 wrote: »

“Why doesn’t Adams admit he was in the IRA??” - Pat Rabbitte, up to his bollocks in the Sticks for years.

I’m sick of it really, it’s boring and I honestly don’t think most people give a sh*t about it anymore.

Enda used to use all that stuff as a crutch too. If under pressure revert to the slanging match and rants.

Personally, I think what we have learned from Brexit and the way it has changed the political landscape on these islands is much more interesting. The UK has revealed itself to be not such a stable friend as it pretended it was. It is, as it always has been, selfish and not interested in the welfare of this island, if it affects their own.

That has huge implications for the body politic here and it isn't lost on players like FG and FF nor SF. It is affecting relationships already.

blackwhite · 06-11-2019 12:37pm

maccored wrote: »

wrong because sinn fein of the 1970s didnt want the EU? SF changed in the 80s and developed further in the 90s and accepted EU membership. They are critical of the EU - as they rightly should be - but they have not 'become so pro EU' recently, as incorrectly stated by yourself and others. Its a stance they have had for a few decades at this stage.

Those are the facts, and if you got lost trying to get your head around them, its no skin off my teeth.

In your rush to blindly defend all things SF, you are the one who made the idiotic claim that SF have "always been pro-EU".

Instead of being man enough to admit that you made a mistake and that the claim isn't true, you've doubled down on it and are now trying to claim that the word "always" doesn't actually mean always :pac:

I don't think it's other people who are having trouble getting their head around facts TBH. Maybe start with here https://www.dictionary.com/browse/always?s=t and see what "always" means

FTA69 has given a good summary of the actual facts. SF were completely anti-EU through the 70s and 80s, but then softened their stance through the 90s and 00s.

Pity you don't like the facts when they prove you posted BS in your original claim

06-11-2019 12:37pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The UK has revealed itself to be not such a stable friend as it pretended it was. It is, as it always has been, selfish and not interested in the welfare of this island, if it affects their own.

sorry, but why should the UK be interested in the welfare of Ireland? Last I heard Ireland was in independent country.

blanch152 · 06-11-2019 12:48pm

maccored wrote: »

wrong because sinn fein of the 1970s didnt want the EU? SF changed in the 80s and developed further in the 90s and accepted EU membership. They are critical of the EU - as they rightly should be - but they have not 'become so pro EU' recently, as incorrectly stated by yourself and others. Its a stance they have had for a few decades at this stage.

Those are the facts, and if you got lost trying to get your head around them, its no skin off my teeth.

Well, if you had said that in the first place things mightn't have kicked off the way they did. To recollect, here is the fourth post of the thread when you said that SF have always been pro-EU:

maccored wrote: »

SF have always been pro-EU in regards being part of the EU. They have though, exercised their democratic right to object to certain EU treaties. Maybe they're meant to like everything the EU puts forward? Is that what 'Pro EU' means?

Quite clearly, this is very different to your latest post. However, what remains concerning is that despite the many clarifications and links provided across the thread, you are still denying the facts.

I linked to the 1989 Sinn Fein EU Election manifesto which said that "SF wants a negotiated withdrawal from the EC while keeping close economic and trading links", which any Tory in England would stand by today.

Yet, you are saying that Sinn Fein changed in the 1980s, which clearly is false as my link shows.

Sinn Fein were and are against the European project. In that way, they are closer to the UK Tories than any other political party here.

blanch152 wrote: »

https://irishelectionliterature.com/2010/01/27/pat-doherty-dermot-guy-caoimhghin-o-caolain-sinn-fein-1989-european-elections-connaughtulster/

"SF wants a negotiated withdrawal from the EC while keeping close economic and trading links"

Couldn't have been said better than Boris.

When/why did SF become so pro EU ?

Comments