When/why did SF become so pro EU ?

maccored · 05-11-2019 4:26pm

Robert_Beach wrote: »

40 years ago? It's just over 10 since SF were leading the charge against Lisbon and how undemocratic a second ref was.

again - how does that make them anti eu? 'We dont like a document put forward therefore we hate the EU' ... thats just bollocks.

Obviously people find it hard to tell the difference between being anti EU and being critical of the EU

facehugger99 · 05-11-2019 5:08pm

maccored wrote: »

Obviously people find it hard to tell the difference between being anti EU and being critical of the EU

Luckily people are very good at spotting the bullsh;t that SF and their online bots try to peddle though.

maccored · 05-11-2019 5:10pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

Luckily people are very good at spotting the bullsh;t that SF and their online bots try to peddle though.

going by that statement one would wonder. online bots? Bit lazy statement

Come back to me whenever you can find a statement from SF claiming they are anti EU.

FrancieBrady · 05-11-2019 5:15pm

maccored wrote: »

going by that statement one would wonder. online bots? Bit lazy statement

Come back to me whenever you can find a statement from SF claiming they are anti EU.

When the 'bots' 'moron' stuff starts you know what is happening maccored.

Odhinn · 05-11-2019 5:38pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Horde: WE WANT THIS POLITICAL PARTY TO EVOLVE AND REFORM THEIR POSITIONS!

Political party evolves and reforms their position over 40 years.

The Horde: HYPOCRITES!

You guys truly are gas. :D

/thread.

maccored · 05-11-2019 5:41pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When the 'bots' 'moron' stuff starts you know what is happening maccored.

plus they still cant tell the difference between being against something and criticising something

JohnnyFlash · 05-11-2019 5:43pm

They just seem like a really ineffectual party these days. Doing nothing up North as it suits both sides for that to be the case, and a party of populist nonsense and cheap sound bites down here. Real hurlers on the ditch.

FrancieBrady · 05-11-2019 5:45pm

maccored wrote: »

plus they still cant tell the difference between being against something and criticising something

Nor carry out basic research because it isn't as if SF are hiding anything, here they are at the height of Brexit making no bones about what their relationship with the EU now is:

Speaking at the Sligo Citizens Dialogue on the Future of Europe, Matt Carthy said that constructive criticism was needed to make the EU work better, and that this should not be seen, as a question of being in or out of the EU or out of the EU:

“What Sinn Féin wants is a European Union that works for the people of Europe, not for EU insiders, corporate interests or established political parties from the larger states.”

Saying that the euro crisis was a severe blow to the idea of solidarity between member states, he said:

“People across Europe are rejecting the EU model that has created winners and losers, precarious employment, wealth inequality, debt dependent growth and privatised public services. A failure to recognise this will pose a threat to the future of the European Union itself.”

https://www.mattcarthy.ie/the-european-union-must-be-radically-reformed-carthy/

Odhinn · 05-11-2019 5:48pm

maccored wrote: »

plus they still cant tell the difference between being against something and criticising something

Or the difference between "back then" and "now". It's a bit Father Dougal, really.

blanch152 · 05-11-2019 6:52pm

maccored wrote: »

hows it false? Have they stated they dont what to be in the EU? Where and when? As I say - no point in digging out 30-40 year old bits of history to back up claims (like blanch152 favours doing)

maccored wrote: »

SF have always been pro-EU

I am doubleplusgood to the rightthinking duckspeaker who has righted my crimethink and maked my oldthink go away.

Seriously, you said that Sinn Fein have always been pro-EU. There is nothing wrong in pointing out that they have never backed a single EU referendum and have been rabidly anti-EU for most of their political existence.

blanch152 · 05-11-2019 6:54pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Or the difference between "back then" and "now". It's a bit Father Dougal, really.

maccored wrote: »

SF have always been pro-EU

I asked for someone to show me where Sinn Fein have supported an ever closer political union. I am still waiting.

FrancieBrady · 05-11-2019 7:00pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I asked for someone to show me where Sinn Fein have supported an ever closer political union. I am still waiting.

WHO claimed that they have?

Will this allow you to say sensatinally that they are 'RABIDLY' anti closer union?

statesaver · 05-11-2019 7:19pm

Batty Boy wrote: »

I remember not long ago, SF were against every EU project/treaty/law/Euro currency, Nowadays their elected representatives are as europhile as FG, using expressions like "Ireland at the heart of Europe"

When they found out there is a LOT of money available in Brussels.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 05-11-2019 7:29pm

Sinn Fein opposed joining the EU and have campaigned for a "No" vote in every EU referendum since 1972, frequently using lies and misinformation to scare people into voting the way they want. Anyone recall their "crushing family farms" poster campaign? They even shared a platform with Nigel Farage when it suited them -- and yet we're now expected to believe that they're "pro-EU." What utter nonsense.

FrancieBrady · 05-11-2019 7:48pm

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

Sinn Fein opposed joining the EU and have campaigned for a "No" vote in every EU referendum since 1972, frequently using lies and misinformation to scare people into voting the way they want. Anyone recall their "crushing family farms" poster campaign? They even shared a platform with Nigel Farage when it suited them -- and yet we're now expected to believe that they're "pro-EU." What utter nonsense.

If it's utter nonsense then show us were they have advocated leaving it. Bound to be a link or phrase somewhere.

Not holding my breath.

blanch152 · 05-11-2019 8:12pm

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

Sinn Fein opposed joining the EU and have campaigned for a "No" vote in every EU referendum since 1972, frequently using lies and misinformation to scare people into voting the way they want. Anyone recall their "crushing family farms" poster campaign? They even shared a platform with Nigel Farage when it suited them -- and yet we're now expected to believe that they're "pro-EU." What utter nonsense.

Next thing is we will be told that they never supported the IRA.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 05-11-2019 8:17pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If it's utter nonsense then show us were they have advocated leaving it.

If they're so pro-EU, show us where they ever advocated joining it.

FrancieBrady · 05-11-2019 8:20pm

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

If they're so pro-EU, show us where they ever advocated joining it.

They didn't and didnt hide the fact.
They are not hiding their position on it now either if you'd look a bit further than the Indo.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 05-11-2019 8:26pm

From the "pro-EU" Sinn Fein, which has consistently spread lies and misinformation about every single European treaty the people have ever voted on.

sflisbon3.jpg?w=584

tipptom · 05-11-2019 8:27pm

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

Sinn Fein opposed joining the EU and have campaigned for a "No" vote in every EU referendum since 1972, frequently using lies and misinformation to scare people into voting the way they want. Anyone recall their "crushing family farms" poster campaign? They even shared a platform with Nigel Farage when it suited them -- and yet we're now expected to believe that they're "pro-EU." What utter nonsense.

A couple of posts ago you said SF had "joined forces" with Nigel Farage,now that's been dialled down to "sharing a platform"?

Your catching yourself out with your own lies and misinformation and have made an amazing ten minute u turn in two posts while criticising others for u turns.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 05-11-2019 8:28pm

And here's another gem from the "pro-EU" Sinn Fein:

ILoveYourVibes · 05-11-2019 8:28pm

Batty Boy wrote: »

I remember not long ago, SF were against every EU project/treaty/law/Euro currency, Nowadays their elected representatives are as europhile as FG, using expressions like "Ireland at the heart of Europe"

Well it's clear to see why. To be Irish is to be European. To be British isn't. Therefore by SF logic to not be European is to be British.

FrancieBrady · 05-11-2019 8:34pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Well it's clear to see why. To be Irish is to be European. To be British isn't. Therefore by SF logic to not be European is to be British.

So because they opposed the EMU they are like the British or 'shared a platform' with them? ðŸ˜

Serious question: 'What would a consistent position be with regards to treaties proposing closer integration be for a party that opposes 'closer integration'?

Btw, I don't support their opinion on this.

Tomrota · 05-11-2019 8:42pm

To hazard a guess... I would say that Sinn Fein know that Ireland needs close economic partners to retain prosperity. The Irish economy was so reliant on the British economy and if we were to ever leave the EU, it would mean becoming over-reliant on the UK again. The EU is what allowed Ireland to somewhat drift away from the UK policy wise.

ILoveYourVibes · 05-11-2019 8:49pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Serious question: 'What would a consistent position be with regards to treaties proposing closer integration be for a party that opposes 'closer integration'?

If this closer integration means further deviation from the UK then I would suspect a U turn on that parties policy.

The more we deviate from the UK in the long term its more likely NI will have to adopt some EU laws or deviate from the UK in some way its inevitable.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 05-11-2019 8:50pm

tipptom wrote: »

A couple of posts ago you said SF had "joined forces" with Nigel Farage,now that's been dialled down to "sharing a platform"?

Semantic games? Or maybe you just find images like these an embarrassment?

Mary Lou McDonald and Nigel Farage join forces (or "share a platform," if you will) to oppose an EU treaty in 2012.

FrancieBrady · 05-11-2019 8:56pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

If this closer integration means further deviation from the UK then I would suspect a U turn on that parties policy.

The more we deviate from the UK in the long term its more likely NI will have to adopt some EU laws or deviate from the UK in some way its inevitable.

Maybe they will.
I think Brexit has been an eyeopener for everyone.
FG's decision to finally represent all the Irish of the island may mean SF can go into government with them now.

Who knows how parties will evolve...because 'evolve' they all have and will continue to do.

ILoveYourVibes · 05-11-2019 9:08pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Maybe they will.
I think Brexit has been an eyeopener for everyone.
FG's decision to finally represent all the Irish of the island may mean SF can go into government with them now.

Who knows how parties will evolve...because 'evolve' they all have and will continue to do.

Its never been up to SF whether or not they obtain a coalition agreement.

FrancieBrady · 05-11-2019 9:16pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Its never been up to SF whether or not they obtain a coalition agreement.

They've been asked about it often enough.

As I have said, Brexit has changed the entire political landscape here as well. Who knows what way parties will now shift position. It has seen FG leaders openly discussing the possibilities of a UI for instance and committee work on the shape and look of a UI has been undertaken,

We live in interesting times.

Skylinehead · 05-11-2019 9:25pm

maccored wrote: »

hows it false? Have they stated they dont what to be in the EU? Where and when?

I think advocating against joining the EU is stating they didn't want to be in it.

You have a strange definition of "always". 40 years ago counts as always btw, your little disclaimer makes no sense.

It's convenient for them now because of the Brits, but considering they're always (and I use that correctly) against absolutely every treaty, you'll forgive me if I don't believe that their newfound love for the EU is in any way genuine.

maccored · 05-11-2019 9:27pm

Skylinehead wrote: »

I think advocating against joining the EU is stating they didn't want to be in it.

You have a strange definition of "always". 40 years ago counts as always btw, your little disclaimer makes no sense.

It's convenient for them now because of the Brits, but considering they're always (and I use that correctly) against absolutely every treaty, you'll forgive me if I don't believe that their newfound love for the EU is in any way genuine.

In the 1970s. Jaysus catch a grip there. Desperate barrel scraping going on. The ‘now’ you talk of is at least 20 years old at this stage. Bit late noticing now

FrancieBrady · 05-11-2019 9:32pm

Skylinehead wrote: »

I think advocating against joining the EU is stating they didn't want to be in it.

You have a strange definition of "always". 40 years ago counts as always btw, your little disclaimer makes no sense.

It's convenient for them now because of the Brits, but considering they're always (and I use that correctly) against absolutely every treaty, you'll forgive me if I don't believe that their newfound love for the EU is in any way genuine.

Just checking...but what do you define as 'new found'? SF were happy to be in the EU when the GFA was signed in 1998 and I posted a link to Mary Lou 'wanting to be at the heart of Europe' in 2005.
FG and FF were virulently against gay rights and women's rights in the 70's and 80's...is their change 'new found' too?

maccored · 05-11-2019 9:41pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Just checking...but what do you define as 'new found'? SF were happy to be in the EU when the GFA was signed in 1998 and I posted a link to Mary Lou 'wanting to be at the heart of Europe' in 2005.
FG and FF were virulently against gay rights and women's rights in the 70's and 80's...is their change 'new found' too?

Plus, anyone who thinks sf of the 70s bears any resemblance to sf after the mid 80s (and certainly since the late 90s) clearly havent a notion

blanch152 · 06-11-2019 10:34am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So because they opposed the EMU they are like the British or 'shared a platform' with them? ðŸ˜

Serious question: 'What would a consistent position be with regards to treaties proposing closer integration be for a party that opposes 'closer integration'?

Btw, I don't support their opinion on this.

https://irishelectionliterature.com/2010/01/27/pat-doherty-dermot-guy-caoimhghin-o-caolain-sinn-fein-1989-european-elections-connaughtulster/

"SF wants a negotiated withdrawal from the EC while keeping close economic and trading links"

Couldn't have been said better than Boris.

FrancieBrady · 06-11-2019 10:49am

blanch152 wrote: »

https://irishelectionliterature.com/2010/01/27/pat-doherty-dermot-guy-caoimhghin-o-caolain-sinn-fein-1989-european-elections-connaughtulster/

"SF wants a negotiated withdrawal from the EC while keeping close economic and trading links"

Couldn't have been said better than Boris.

Why do you insist on telling me something I already know and accepted and posted links where others have said it (in a less ranty and more intelligent way?)

ALL parties evolve their policy positions, that is a given, I can demonstrate that to you about any party on this island. People also evolve their positions. But do I really need to demonstrate it?

The OP stated that 'nowadays' SF talk about 'being at the heart of Europe' which has been their position since 2005 at least (link to that posted too) but are not as the OP stated 'as Europhile as FG' as I also linked to Matt Carthy stating openly and transparently what their current postion is.

If you want to keep harking back to 30 years ago, do so. But it is just a conspiracy fed rant tbh. Knock thyself out on that one.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 06-11-2019 10:53am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If it's utter nonsense then show us were they have advocated leaving it. Bound to be a link or phrase somewhere.

Not holding my breath.

Per the election leaflet posted above by blanch152, they were calling for a "negotiated withdrawal from the EC" in 1989. An "Irexit," if you will.

Just imagine what would have happened if Ireland had followed Sinn Fein's advice 30 years ago and left the EC.

Now, Sinn Fein and its supporters are attempting some kind of Orwellian historical revisionism along the lines of "We have never been at war with Eastasia," pretending that SF have been pro-EU all along.

This is despite the historical record showing that SF opposed accession in 1972, refused to participate in European elections until 1984, were calling for Ireland to leave the EC as late as 1989, and have opposed every single European treaty to date, happily sharing a platform with Farage to campaign for a "No" vote in 2012.

If it were up to Sinn Fein, Ireland would never have joined the EU, would never have ratified a single European treaty, and would still be an isolated, economically stagnant backwater on the fringes of Europe, probably with the Troubles still going on.

Gerry was never in the IRA.
Sinn Fein were never anti-EU.

It's amazing that there are people who actually believe the cult-like brainwashing that SF try to engage in.

facehugger99 · 06-11-2019 10:59am

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

It's amazing that there are people who actually believe the cult-like brainwashing that SF try to engage in.

It's also amazing the amount of non-SF voters willing to spend hours of their spare time defending every SF policy position on social media.

FrancieBrady · 06-11-2019 10:59am

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

Per the election leaflet posted above by blanch152, they were calling for a "negotiated withdrawal from the EC" in 1989. An "Irexit," if you will.

Just imagine what would have happened if Ireland had followed Sinn Fein's advice 30 years ago and left the EC.

Now, Sinn Fein and its supporters are attempting some kind of Orwellian historical revisionism along the lines of "We have never been at war with Eastasia," pretending that SF have been pro-EU all along.

This is despite the historical record showing that SF opposed accession in 1972, refused to participate in European elections until 1984, were calling for Ireland to leave the EC as late as 1989, and have opposed every single European treaty to date, happily sharing a platform with Farage to campaign for a "No" vote in 2012.

If it were up to Sinn Fein, Ireland would never have joined the EU, would never have ratified a single European treaty, and would still be an isolated, economically stagnant backwater on the fringes of Europe, probably with the Troubles still going on.

Gerry was never in the IRA.
Sinn Fein were never anti-EU.

It's amazing that there are people who actually believe the cult-like brainwashing that SF try to engage in.

If you can show me where I said at any point that SF were never 'anti EU', knock yourself out too.

Otherwise try and deal with the actual points I am making?

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 06-11-2019 11:04am

facehugger99 wrote: »

It's also amazing the amount of non-SF voters willing to spend hours of their spare time defending every SF policy position on social media.

The party even recruits people to become Sinn Féin Online Supporters (aka Shinnerbots) and devote their time to promoting/defending Sinn Féin online.

It's an organized operation across social media.

FTA69 · 06-11-2019 11:12am

I was a member of SF for years. SF used to be wholly anti-EU, then would have been what’s called ‘Eurosceptic’ in the sense they thought that the EU eroded sovereignty and was integral to neo-liberal capitalism and now they seem to have become a lot more pro-EU.

It has been a gradual shift in their politics as the party has gravitated more and more toward the centre ground, which is natural enough. They also used to think that “it would be the cutting edge of the IRA that would remove British imperialism from Ireland” and now they support the GFA and a six-county border poll.

The situation politically has changed and so has their politics.

(The EU is a big pile of sh*te though)

FrancieBrady · 06-11-2019 11:14am

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

The party even recruits people to become Sinn Féin Online Supporters (aka Shinnerbots) and devote their time to promoting/defending Sinn Féin online.

It's an organized operation across social media.

BINGO! We have the card full now.

Do we HAVE to do this again?

Perma...again as shown by your link they are open and transparent about that, what is the big conspiracy around it?

maccored is a member and is open about it as are a few others here.

I am not and never have been or will be a member of any political party. My politics would not suit a political party as they are not easily defined. SF's stance on the EU, past and present would find no support in the Francie Party.

FTA69 · 06-11-2019 11:17am

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

The party even recruits people to become Sinn Féin Online Supporters (aka Shinnerbots) and devote their time to promoting/defending Sinn Féin online.

It's an organized operation across social media.

Every political party does this or is beginning to do this. You should see the social media operations in Britain if you think this is bad. As traditional oligarch-owned media declines in importance, online stuff will become even more prevalent.

Personally I hate clicktivist bollocks but there you are.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 06-11-2019 11:25am

FTA69 wrote: »

I was a member of SF for years. SF used to be wholly anti-EU, then would have been what’s called ‘Eurosceptic’ in the sense they thought that the EU eroded sovereignty and was integral to neo-liberal capitalism and now they seem to have become a lot more pro-EU.

That makes a lot more sense than the "SF have always been pro-EU" revisionist BS that maccored is parroting.

That said, just 7 years ago, Mary Lou and Nigel Farage were appearing together to oppose an EU treaty. So I don't buy that they have become "pro-EU."

Currently, they are masquerading as "pro-EU" to differentiate themselves from Tory Eurosceptics — but they'll be back to form again as soon as Brexit is done and another EU treaty appears for ratification.

BoJack Horseman · 06-11-2019 11:28am

The Shinners are pretending to be pro-EU now for the reason they pretended to be anti-EU for the last four decades......

.... because it's politically expedient at the given moment.

Sinn Fein are the ultimate pragmatists.

If a policy isn't useful... It's binned.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 06-11-2019 11:28am

FTA69 wrote: »

Every political party does this or is beginning to do this. You should see the social media operations in Britain if you think this is bad.

The issue is not so much with recruiting supporters as using them in the service of Orwellian revisionism — of the "Gerry was never in the IRA" or "SF have always been pro-EU" variety.

SF seem to assume that if they can get enough people repeating the same lies on social media, the lies will gradually become accepted as the truth.

It's straight out of the "We have never been at war with Eastasia" playbook.

weldoninhio · 06-11-2019 11:29am

Todays SF are like the alphabet soup parties. They jump on anything populist. It's such a pity as they could have taken Labours place as the party for the normal working person after Labours demise, but they jumped on the woke bandwagon. I used to think they were an alternative to vote for instead of FF/G, but they are pointless now.

FTA69 · 06-11-2019 11:31am

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

The issue is not so much with recruiting supporters as using them in the service of Orwellian revisionism — of the "Gerry was never in the IRA" or "SF have always been pro-EU" variety.

SF seem to assume that if they can get enough people repeating the same lies on social media, the lies will gradually become accepted as the truth.

It's straight out of the "We have never been at war with Eastasia" playbook.

Of course they’re lying, all politicians are liars essentially.

piplip87 · 06-11-2019 11:31am

Money is at the heart of everything SF do. They claim to be socialists against the 1% but a dinner in the US with Mary Lou and Gerry not in the IRA will set you back thousands..... I guess against the 1% the does not donate to Friends of SF.

They don't take Thier seats in Westminster which is fair enough and I understand exactly why they don't. They still contest the elections and still claim salaries and expenses so I guess once again they don't want they get money from the British Taxpayer to do nothing..... Money over everything else it seems.

As for the EU all parties change positions on issues and evolve but the shift has been so quick and I suppose if your getting a good lump of MEP wages paid back to the party it's worthwhile.

Lost every EU referendum they opposed .... With the exception of the ones that where put to the people after the defeat, after the government of the day got changes and clarifications to the original ones.....

So in essence SF will always change Thier tune when money is involved or if it's a chance to beat to other side. .

FrancieBrady · 06-11-2019 11:32am

Zayden Most Rating wrote: »

That makes a lot more sense than the "SF have always been pro-EU" revisionist BS that maccored is parroting.

That said, just 7 years ago, Mary Lou and Nigel Farage were appearing together to oppose an EU treaty. So I don't buy that they have become "pro-EU."

Currently, they are masquerading as "pro-EU" to differentiate themselves from Tory Eurosceptics — but they'll be back to form again as soon as Brexit is done and another EU treaty appears for ratification.

And if is a treaty that increases integration then opposing it would be entirely in keeping with their stated position.

Why not stop the conspiracy theorising and research what they are openly saying.
They are not 'hiding' it. This from a few months ago.

Speaking at the Sligo Citizens Dialogue on the Future of Europe, Matt Carthy said that constructive criticism was needed to make the EU work better, and that this should not be seen, as a question of being in or out of the EU or out of the EU:

“What Sinn Féin wants is a European Union that works for the people of Europe, not for EU insiders, corporate interests or established political parties from the larger states.”

Saying that the euro crisis was a severe blow to the idea of solidarity between member states, he said:

“People across Europe are rejecting the EU model that has created winners and losers, precarious employment, wealth inequality, debt dependent growth and privatised public services. A failure to recognise this will pose a threat to the future of the European Union itself.”

https://www.mattcarthy.ie/the-european-union-must-be-radically-reformed-carthy/

You are like someone who keeps walking into walls because you just steadfastly refuse to see the wall.

Danzy · 06-11-2019 11:35am

weldoninhio wrote: »

Todays SF are like the alphabet soup parties. They jump on anything populist. It's such a pity as they could have taken Labours place as the party for the normal working person after Labours demise, but they jumped on the woke bandwagon. I used to think they were an alternative to vote for instead of FF/G, but they are pointless now.

It's become a very right on movement, dominated by young middle class activists. Especially in Dublin.

Which is affecting its vote.

Pity.

When/why did SF become so pro EU ?

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