Bus Éireann PSO Competition question

Whilst it is the generally the case that a PSO route becomes a monopoly is there actually anything preventing a private operator from applying and gaining a licence to operate a similar route as a PSO route.

Yes there are considerations to be made such as service requirement etc which could potentially stop any competition, but, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't believe there is any rule specifically to say a PSO route can not have commercial competion.

danm14 wrote: »

I was under the impression that a commercial bus operator could not be licenced to run along the same or very similar route as a PSO route (which is allegedly why the 109 cannot have any commercial competition). I'd be interested to know how the following situation in Dundalk came about.

Dundalk has three Bus Eireann PSO town services, the 174 to Muirhevnamor, the 174A to Fatima, and the 174B to Bay Estate.

The 174 to Muirhevnamor and the 174B to Bay Estate have competition from Halpenny Travel's licenced commercial routes 917 and 916 respectively. Both companies services run along an identical route apart from having different termini (approx 500 yards apart), with the commercially run service having fares 20c lower than the PSO service.

It has been suggested numerous times by posters on boards.ie that no other company can operate a service to and from Dublin, that covers locations served to and from Dublin on the 109.

Others have stated that no other bus company can operate new services that are identical to services currently operated by any other bus company.

My understanding is that the NTA would not be receptive to a bus company applying to operate a service that is identical to a service already in operation by another bus company.

As I understand it, no other company can operate an identical service to those currently in operation by another bus company.

My understanding is that another company can apply to operate services, that would operate at the same times as other services by other companies, and that other companies can apply to operate services at different times of the day, as long as they are not identical to services that are already in operation by another bus company.

In the case of the 109, or indeed the 109X, the 109A and the new NX service, another company does run a service that covers locations that are also served to and from Dublin on the 109, 109A, 109X and NX and 109B.

Sillan Tours operates a daily service to and from Cootehill and Shercock that covers Navan and Dunshaughlin and Dublin.

The fact that the Sillan Tours service connects Cootehill, Shercock to and from Navan, and also connects Cootehill and Shercock to and from Dunshaughlin and Dublin, indicates to me that it is not a service that is in competition with the 109, considering that you cannot get to and from Shercock or Cootehill and Navan Dunshaughlin or Dublin on the 109, NX, 109B, 109A, 109X services.

With Sillan Tours you can get to and from Cootehill and Shercock to Navan, or Dunshaughlin, or Dublin.

Recently, over the last two years, Sillan Tours has increased its services, including an increase in its services to and from Navan and Dublin.

There are now services operated by Sillan Tours, that start and end in Navan going to and from Dublin. Previously, its daily services would have all started in either Shercock or Cootehill.

www.sillan.ie
http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/1473263565-109A.pdf
http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/1504435671-109X.pdf
http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/1504435589-109.pdf
http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/1504435631-NX.pdf

devnull wrote: »

As stated previously, the Sillian Tours license was granted on 17th August 2004.

Like the Halpenny Travel service the Sillian license was granted under the Road Passenger Act of 1932, and pre-dates the current licensing regulations which are underpinned by the Public Transport Regulation Act of 2009.

It is extremely unlikely that a commercial operator will be given a new license that competes with a PSO service since the passing of the Public Transport Regulation Act of 2009 because as I quoted above, there are specific sections in the licensing guidelines which came into effect with the passing of the Act that would make it difficult for an operator to obtain a license in such situation.

But in the case of Sillan Tours, it has connections between locations, as well as to and from Dublin, that are not served on the 109. As I see it, because it offers connections to and from intermediate locations, as well as to and from locations and Dublin that are not served by Bus Éireann, that it is not in competition with the 109, NX, 109A, 109X and NX services.

You can't get from Dunshaughlin to Shercock or Cootehill with any Bus Éireann service.

Could another company not apply - and possibly receive a positive response to an application - to operate a service to and from Dublin, which covers locations currently served by other bus companies to and from Dublin, as long as the service being applied for, would offer connections to and from intermediate locations, locations that are not covered by any service that is already in operation?

Is that not how McGeehan's Coaches, received the go ahead to operate a service, in October 2013, between Fermanagh, Cavan, Virginia and Dublin?

In that case, at that time, the 109 served Cavan and Virginia to and from Dublin.

Also, the number 30 Bus Éireann service between Dublin and Donegal also serves Cavan, Virginia and Dublin, but the number 30 differed from the McGeehan's service because the 30 serves the airport.

As I understand it, McGeehan's was able to operate that route, that covered Cavan and Virginia and Dublin, because it was not identical to the Bus Éireann number 30 service between Dublin and Donegal.

http://www.donegaldaily.com/2013/10/19/dd-deal-of-the-day-buy-a-return-ticket-for-the-price-of-a-single-on-mcgeehan-coaches/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/cityswift/11000535775

devnull wrote: »

Questioning why the Sillian Tours license was granted in the context of current licensing guidelines is not even a logical discussion to have because as has been stated before the current licensing guidelines were not in place when said license was granted so it's completely irrelevant to a debate about how services are licensed in 2017.



The current licensing guidelines, that are underpinned by the Transport Regulation Act of 2009 make it clear that the National Transport Authority should take into account the impact that any commercial service would have on any public transport services that are contracted by the state by the way of a Public Service Obligation contract.

The NTA are required to ensure that PSO services are operated in an efficient manner because they are vital services as part of a reliable and effective public transport system. Since the presence of a new commercial operator may result in some loss of revenue it would certainly make them less efficient at their existing service and therefore if NTA allowed this to happen they could be in breach of their own guidelines.

Whilst there are exceptions for services that could enhance the overall public transport offering, that would be on the basis that it enhanced the public transport network and did not have any significant effect on existing PSO services.

Taking that into consideration, it seems to me, for example, that there would be nothing preventing any other company from operating a service to Cavan from Dublin throughout the night, at a time that is not served by any other company. An example could be, a service that starts and ends in Dublin and Cavan, operating to and from Cavan throughout the night, that does not serve the airport.

It would not be competing with existing services covering the same locations, because it would be operating at a time that the other services, that start and end in Cavan, do not operate.

Or that there would be nothing preventing any other company from operating a service connecting Dublin, Dunshaughlin, Navan and places like Cootehill and Shercock, at times that are not already served by companies that already operate services to and from those locations?

Or that there would be nothing preventing a company from operating a service to and from Carrickmacross and Ardee and Dublin at times that are not currently served by any other company, for example Bus Éireann or Collins Coaches, neither of which operate to and from Dublin throughout the night.

If a bus operator applied to operate to and from Ardee and Carrickmacross and Dublin late at night to or from Dublin, or even throughout the night to and from Dublin, that started and ended in Carrickmacross, and did not serve the airport, it would not be in competition with any existing bus service.

devnull wrote: »

Questioning why the Sillian Tours license was granted in the context of current licensing guidelines is not even a logical discussion to have because as has been stated before the current licensing guidelines were not in place when said license was granted so it's completely irrelevant to a debate about how services are licensed in 2017.



The current licensing guidelines, that are underpinned by the Transport Regulation Act of 2009 make it clear that the National Transport Authority should take into account the impact that any commercial service would have on any public transport services that are contracted by the state by the way of a Public Service Obligation contract.

The NTA are required to ensure that PSO services are operated in an efficient manner because they are vital services as part of a reliable and effective public transport system. Since the presence of a new commercial operator may result in some loss of revenue it would certainly make them less efficient at their existing service and therefore if NTA allowed this to happen they could be in breach of their own guidelines.

Whilst there are exceptions for services that could enhance the overall public transport offering, that would be on the basis that it enhanced the public transport network and did not have any significant effect on existing PSO services.



That route was a cross border route and cross border routes are operated under European Union mandated rules and not rules that can be set by a member state and are the NTA has very limited say over what happens with these.



The number 30 route is a commercial Route therefore commercial rules apply so any guidelines in relation to PSO services do not apply when it comes to considerations in relation to this route.

I did not question why Sillan Tours was granted a license.

The point I was making was the considering they operate a service that covers locations that are also served on the Bus Éireann Navan, Dunshaughlin Dublin routes, I was saying that there is no basis to state that Bus Éireann has a monopoly on routes, if the rule is that other companies cannot operate routes that are identical to routes already in operation.

I was making that point, that it would seem that there is nothing to stop any bus company from operating a service that covers locations served by other companies, as long as the proposed service is not identical to routes already operating.

I used as an example the McGeehan's service that operated in October 2013, which covered three locations also served on the number 30 Donegal Dublin route.

It would appear to me, that if one of the considerations is to ensure that one company's service doesn't undermine another company's service, that if a company operated a service at a time that another company doesn't operate its service, that they wouldn't really be competing.

That is why I asked what would prohibit a company from operating a new service throughout the night covering somewhere like to and from Carrickmacross Ardee and Dublin, that would not serve Dublin Airport, if the existing services operated by Collins Coaches and Bus Éireann do not operate at that time.

devnull wrote: »

Yes and you are then using it to make a point of what is happening here and now which is completely irrelevant because Silian Tours service license was issued when there were a different set of rules so it has no relevance to the matter at hand whatsoever since the service exists as it has been inherited from a legacy system.



I have not mentioned the word identical and this word is not contained anywhere in the licensing regulations. The licensing regulations talk about impact on PSO services and efficiency of them when assessing new commercial route applications. To me that would indicate assessing if the commercial service would effect the passenger numbers carried by and revenue obtained by the PSO service.

You are speaking in very vague terms here, a Bus Eireann Commercial service is considered differently from a Bus Eireann contracted (PSO) service as far as the Public Transport Regulation Act is concerned so when you are referring to a Bus Eireann service I would suggest you clarify if you are talking about a contracted service or a commercial service because that is important in this discussion.



And as I've indicated to you cross border routes are not subject to licensing by the NTA so this is a complete red herring here as the NTA cannot apply licensing guidelines to routes that cross borders because to do so would be in breach of EU regulations which as a member state of the EU, Ireland is required to comply with. In addition the Bus Eireann route 30 is a commercial service not PSO.



But there are two distinct types of services as considered by the PTR Act 2009, those which are contracted and those which are commercial and you cannot just lump them all in together and talk about 'services' because the licensing system simply doesn't work like that because whether existing services are a PSO services or a commercial service is integral to how a new application is going to be judged.

The NTA clearly state that they have to consider the effect on the efficiency of the PSO service when there is overlap between an existing PSO contracted service and a prospective new commercial service. I would suggest that this would not be on the basis of time but on the basis of the possible loss of revenue on the PSO service to the new commercial service.

I am asking if there is a possibility, that once a proposed route by a bus company is not identical to a service already in operation by another bus company, of the proposed route getting approval.

If that is the case, then the idea of one company having a monopoly on its service in a particular area does not apply, for example to and from Dublin and places like Navan, Ashbourne, Swords or Balbriggan, or Drogheda or Dundalk, where there are services in operation by companies other than Bus Éireann, including services that commenced in recent years, after the 2009 Public Transport Regulation Act.

You spoke of proposed routes not being permitted for operation on the basis of being "identical" "or very similar" to routes already in operation, in another thread.

You said the following:
"As part of the Public Transport Regulation Act of 2009 routes that were identical to an existing PSO service or very similar were not approved on the basis that on PSO routes ithe incumbent who gets PSO has an exclusive contract for that route".

It seems to me that the idea of Bus Éireann having a monopoly on routes - for example between Navan and Dublin - is not the case, if another company can propose, and possibly get the go ahead, to operate a route, for example between Dublin and locations that are served by other bus companies, once it can be shown that the proposed route offers connections to and from locations, that are not offered on routes that are already in operation by any other company.

In this scenario, a proposed service would not be the same as existing services, and if a proposed new route includes connections to and from locations not included in routes already in operation, then it might be the case that the proposed route would include regular passengers, who would not have used the other services anyway. In that situation, the proposed route would not be taking regular business away from the other bus services, with regard to passengers who lived in areas that are not served on routes operated by other bus companies.

Is this how the Ashbourne Connect services got approval to operate its daily service, in that it is a different route to the 103 and 109A Bus Éireann services, or the service to Ashbourne operated by Dublin Bus?

On what basis did the companies that operate routes to and from Dublin and Balbriggan, to and from Fingal and Dublin, and to and from Dublin and Swords get approval to operate services?

Did they get approval on the basis of offering connections between intermediate stops, between locations on those routes, or by offering other intermediate stops, that are not served by Dublin Bus?

I mentioned the example of Sillan Tours, because in recent times it has increased its Shercock - Cootehill - Navan Dublin services, including a service that starts in Navan, that also serves Nassau St and UCD, and a service that starts in UCD, picks up at Nassau St and ends in Navan. Is it under the Public Transport Regulation Act of 2009 that its increase in services - including the service that starts and ends in Navan and Dublin and UCD - received approval?

https://www.yougo.ie/
https://www.balbriggan.info/balbriggan-express-191-bus-timetable/
http://www.swordsexpress.com/Timetable/
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103169052&postcount=2187
https://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/33/
http://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/33a3/
http://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/33x-/
http://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/33n-Revised-Times/
https://dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/88n-Revised-Times/
http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/1470225086-103.pdf
www.sillan.ie

schemingbohemia wrote: »

What Devnull is forgetting, and thankfully the NTA haven't, is the customer in all this.

If the Contracted services provide 1 service an hour and a commercial operator wants to operate on the half hour then a licence may be granted, if the commercial service provides a quicker journey time to the passenger, usually at a premium price, then it may well get a licence.

It's not quite as black and white as set out above as some of the commercial services mentioned attest, such as Ashbourne Connect, I'm sure there are others I can't think of at the moment.

That sounds to me that the idea of one company having a monopoly on a route - as has been stated by a number of people on boards.ie about Bus Éireann - is not the case, and that if another operator applied to operate a route that has is different to a service that is already in operation, there is a possibility that the operator's proposal would be approved.

Is that how the Swords Express and Fingal Express services got approval, that they have different intermediate stops to the Dublin Bus routes?

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Yes - there is no monopoly and intermediary stops are a huge part in differentiating the services thus allowing them a licence.

Thanks, when I have asked this before, some people that responded, seemed to have a difficulty conceding that there was no monopoly, instead arguing during the bus strike earlier this year that the grass would be greener if every Bus Éireann route was given over to other companies!:)

The concern I have is that I am not sure that other companies would be inclined to operate many of the local and rural services that are currently operated by Bus Éireann. I understand that Bus Éireann operate these services because they get financial support, a subsidy and are provided with buses, but I am not sure, that even if other companies received this support to operate these services, that they would be inclined to do so.

From what you say, it seems that in areas where Bus Éireann, and even other companies operate, that if another company applied to operate later, or more frequent services, or services with different intermediate stops, it is possible that their applications would be approved, as long as they showed that they served locations not already covered on other services.

I guess that may be how JJ Kavanagh's and Dublin Coach operate services from Arthurs Quay in Limerick, to Dublin during the night - that the Dublin Coach services starts in Tralee or Ennis, while the JJ Kavanagh's service starts in Limerick, with both companies offering different intermediate connections.

For example JJ Kavanagh's serves Nenagh, Moneygall, Roscrea and Portlaoise on its Limerick Dublin service, while Dublin Coach serves locations before Limerick - offering connections to Limerick on its services to Dublin, from Tralee, Killarney, Abbeyfeale and Newcastlewest, locations which are not covered on the JJ Kavanagh's Limerick Dublin service.

Another difference is that passengers from Limerick for Dublin Airport on Dublin Coach would connect with the Dublin Coach Portlaoise Dublin Airport service at the Red Cow, but with JJ Kavanagh's its Limerick Dublin service stops at Dublin Airport.

http://www.dublincoach.ie/timetables-fares/M7-bus-ennis-tralee-killarney-limerick-dublin-city.php
http://www.dublincoach.ie/timetables-fares/N7-bus-dublin-airport-to-portlaoise.php
http://jjkavanagh.ie/timetable-detail-page?RouteNo=735&IsWeb=1&IsCollegeRoute=0&Direction=0&RGrp=Main Routes ^ Airport Routes

Night Falls wrote: »

Why do you think they would be unwilling to operate them?

I'm not sure they'd be interested in operating the the more local and rural services that connect rural areas to larger towns.

There are numerous excellent services operated by companies other than Bus Éireann, but many of them are services to and from Dublin, that do not operate that late in the evening in either direction, or only operate to Dublin in the morning and home again in the early evening.

I'm not sure that they'd be much interested in operating local rural services.

devnull wrote: »

In my book that indicates any service that would deprive the PSO route's overall takings of anything other than minor revenue loss because that would lead to additional subsidy being required from the taxpayer. Also you have to bear in mind that Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus are currently running their businesses based on farebox revenue.

Well obviously those working in the NTA's bus licensing section have a different view to you.


You will note that I have never used the word monopoly, I know that has been attributed to me but I have not stated that anywhere in this thread because there is no monopoly. What I am saying is contracted operators have a lot more protection under the licensing guidelines from commercial competition than commercial operators have from each other which makes it more difficult for a commercial operator to gain a license in this situation.

For example if I wanted to run a commercial service as frequent as an existing PSO service, I wouldn't get a license because it would significantly effect the efficiency of the PSO. If I offered a peak time service and could show that there was demand for it and it offered something different from the PSO service and it was not resulting in head to head time running I might get one though.

Both your points above seem to contradict each other.

Anyway we are actually in agreement that whilst it is more difficult for a commercial operator to get a licence on a route with a PSO service it is possible, as has been shown on numerous routes mentioned in this thread.

Night Falls wrote: »

The BÉ routes you mentioned that are getting a subsidy would be PSO routes. If a PSO route was being taken off them, the new operators (after being tendered similar to how Go Ahead won their routes) would be paid to operate the service, and all revenue would be kept by the NTA. There's no real risk to the operators as they essentially get paid regardless of the number of passengers on board. What operator wouldn't want to tender on that basis?

I'd also imagine that there's a good chance that some private operators could run the services cheaper and more reliably than BÉ can.

What ways would services be run cheaper and more reliably than Bus Éireann.

I don't really get why people think Bus Éireann are unreliable, or less reliable than any other service. I find that any bus service I have used, no matter what the company, are good services.

You could be waiting 5-10 minutes later than scheduled, at an intermediate stop for a private coach operator, just the same as you could be waiting 5 -10 minutes later than scheduled for a Bus Éireann service.

Neither bus company can hop and jump their bus through traffic!:)

Every bus service can get delayed, especially on longer distance routes, be it through traffic, or a bus breaking down or whatever, but on the whole I find that the services operated throughout the country are reliable, no matter if it is Bus Éireann, Aircoach, Citylink, JJ Kavanagh's etc.

As I understand it, the delays and cancellations that were occurring on Bus Éireann services recently in the Eastern part of the country were related to the implementation on the very frequent new NX service, but there hasn't been as many problems with that in recent weeks, as there had been in late September.

Night Falls wrote: »

To be honest the BÉ v private operator issue is a discussion that I'm not really interested in getting involved in, I was merely pointing out that your assertion that operators wouldn't be interested in operating such PSO services doesn't appear to be particularly realistic.

I wasn't pitting Bus Éireann against private operators or saying one is better than the other. I was just saying that my concern is that private operators would not be interested in operating the more local rural routes because in many instances Bus Éireann is the only company operating such routes, and it would appear that at the moment, there is nothing really prohibiting other companies from proposing to operate these types of routes as long as they are not the same as services already in operation, in different areas.

But in general, apart from a few exceptions, they seem to have shown no inclination towards doing so.

Night Falls wrote: »

I’m not a bus operator so wouldn’t know the ins and outs of how they run their business, but I’d imagine working practices in a smaller operator could be a more efficient, and overheads would likely be lower than those of BÉ. I think most would agree that in general the private sector is more adaptable to change than the public sector (which BÉ essentially is). BÉ, due to its size as much as anything, is a victim of inefficiencies.

As for your second query, I’m not sure the relevance of whether a PSO route is currently operating or not on whether other operators would be interested, but the BMO process is exactly that, and the likes of Go Ahead tendered for the services. Also, the process wouldn't be an operator just going "c'mere, you see that route? We'd like to run that please", it would need the NTA to actually go out to tender for them, and the BMO has shown that there has been sufficient interest in operating PSO services. There are other "rural" PSO routes that are operated by private operators.

The reason I asked whether or not they'd be interested, is that that was the assumption made earlier this year, by people who were moaning about Bus Éireann, saying that the company should fold and its routes operated by other companies.

I mentioned in my post that there are cases of local services operated by private operators, but I was making the point that, far more of the services operated by private operators are to and from Dublin and Dublin Airport.

Other coach companies operate services in the morning to Dublin and then back in the early evening from Dublin, on routes where they are sure to get enough people at peak times.

Would they be inclined to operate services at less busy times? If not, then in such a situation, if Bus Éireann ceased to exist, the result would be less services throughout the country, to and from local and rural areas.

Indeed, some of these services to and from Dublin and Dublin Airport cover intermediate towns, for example services operated by Dublin Coach, JJ Kavanaghs, to and from Limerick, and certain City Link services to and from Dublin and Galway, but would a service to and from these intermediate towns be of interest to the companies, if such a service didn't also serve Dublin and Dublin Airport.

That is a concern I have regarding the tendering of routes to different companies.

Night Falls wrote: »

I'm not sure if you're really not seeing the difference between commercial licensed services and pso routes, or being deliberately obtuse, but PSO routes that are operated by private contractors are paid on a flat fee and do not get any of the revenue money. In that instance it doesn't matter a jot whether 1 or 100 people use a particular route, the private operator will still get paid the same amount. Private operators cannot choose to operate PSO routes (the NTA chooses PSO routes to tender out and have full control of the timetable etc), they can only choose to apply for a license to operate commercial services which a completely different thing. It's really not that complicated.

The issue is, would they be interested in operating the type of routes I referenced that serve towns and villages within counties that do not alse serve locations like Dublin, or Cork.

Would they be interested in applying to operate such routes, if such routes get tendered out by the NTA. If private operators will only operate such routes on the basis of getting a subsidy, would it be any less expensive to operate?

Can the NTA insist that intermediate towns continue to be served on routes, if a private company starts operating a PSO route, previously operated by Bus Éireann?