Can someone explain the Irish peerage system to me?

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "AT ARM'S LENGTH - Aristocrats in the Republic of Ireland"[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Anne Chambers chose fourteen Irish Chiefs and Peers representative of the Gaelic, Anglo-Norman, Elizabethan, Jacobite, Cromwellian, Williamite, Victorian and Edwardian-created aristocracy/ ruling class in Ireland and elicited their opinions on a range of issues of historical and present-day interest. She recorded the fate and fortunes of families descended from the Gaelic Chiefs she interviewed and of those who superseded them.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Chiefs/ Peers interviewed:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]O Brian (Conor), Lord Inchiquin, 32nd great-grandson in descent from Brian Boru.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]O Donovan (Daniel), lord of Clan Cathal.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Mac Sweeney Doe (Thomas Sweeney), 21st Chief of Doe.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Mac Donnell (Count Randal), 25th Chief of the Mac Donnells of the Glens[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Edward Plunket, 19th Baron of Dunsany[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Desmond Fitzgerald, 29th Knight of Glin[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Brigadier Denis Fitzgerald (deceased)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Jeremy Browne, 11th Marquess of Sligo[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Brendan Parsons, 7th Earl of Rosse[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The Earl of Mount Charles[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Thomas Packenham, 9th Earl of Longford[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Redmond Morris, 4th Baron Killanin[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]John Kilbracken, 3rd Baron Kilbracken[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The Honourable Garech Browne, son of the late Lord Oranmore and Browne.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"At Arm's Length: Aristocrats in the Republic of Ireland" was launched by Dr. T. K. Whitaker in the Heraldic Museum, Kildare Street, Dublin, September 14, 2004.[/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]From left: Madam Mac Sweeney Doe, Mac Sweeney Doe, Anne Chambers, O Brian/ Lord Inchiquin - President of the Standing Council of Irish Clan Chiefs & Chieftains, The Hon. Garech Browne, Count Randal Mac Donnell of the Glens, Mac Sweeney Doe.

http://www.sweeneydoeclan.com/id34.htm
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Irish Chiefs and the Modern Clans Irish Chiefship is a sticky business by any account. The vast majority of Irishmen and women, whether in Ireland or around the world, are not represented by a Chief. It is a sad fact, and one that does not have to be continued. There are three methods for an Irish family to have its Chief recognized. At present, only 19 Irish families have representation by a fully recognized Chief. There are another 150 families that have organized themselves into clans. This is to clarify the differences.
There are two aspects of recognition with regard to Irish Chiefship. It is important to remember and differentiate between the two, for that is how much of the confusion surrounding the issue starts. The main difference is between "Chief of the Name" and "Chief of the Clan". As stated, there are three organizations that recognize and work with Irish clans. They are:

• The Genealogical Office and the Chief Herald of Ireland
• The Standing Council of Irish Chiefs and Chieftains
• The Clans of Ireland

The Genealogical office and the Chief Herald are the official entity of the government in Dublin. It is concerned with recognizing those who are "Chiefs of the Name" and thus, the title of "The", not with the conduct of the clans themselves.
The Chief Herald, due to the republican nature of Ireland, can only give courtesy recognition to a Chief, but does maintain its power of recognition. The Chief Herald recognizes only those families who can prove direct descent from the last know inaugurated Chief. Further, descent must be derived via primogeniture descent, not with tanistry, or via female lines.
The proof is difficult and in many cases impossible. With the destruction of the Irish Order by 1609, most families lost their inauguration ceremonies within a generation or two, or saw the line of Chief sail away to France, Spain or the New World. Thus only 19 families have ever been given courtesy recognition as being Chiefs of the Name. Recognition comes with no privileges within Ireland, except some heraldlry privileges. But on the Continent some are recognized as Princes and the rest as Counts.
The Standing Council of Irish Chiefs and Chieftains is the next body. This organization has a direct relationship to the Chief Herald, as membership to this council is only given after courtesy recognition by the Chief Herald.
Where this body differs from the Chief Heralds office is that they are not concerned with any recognition nor with genealogical proofs. Instead the Council is focused on Irish culture. The Council puts its efforts into saving aspects of ancient Irish life, language and history. Many of these Chiefs are very active in their clan organizations as well as other Irish preservation organizations.
The Clans of Ireland. This organization, which was at one point an official branch of the Genealogical Office, is focused on the clans themselves. The Clans of Ireland are not in the business of recognizing pedigrees or lines of descent. They do not give the title "The" to the head of a clan. Instead the Clans of Ireland recognize what the clan organizations themselves do. If a clan does not have one of the nineteen "Chiefs of the Name", then that organization can select one of their own to become "Chief of the Clan".
Herein lies the major difference. Courtesy recognition from the Chief Herald entitles a person to be known as "The X, Chief of the Name" and use a noble coronet on their arms. Recognition from Clans of Ireland is recognition purely as "Chief of the Clan X". There is no coronet or nobility associated with this office in Ireland.
Some of the most famous families of Ireland are not represented on the Standing Council of Ireland. And many people would like to change the system of recognition. There are a number of possible solutions to give the families without recognized Chiefs of the Name, representation on the Standing Council. Each proposal is based on either traditional methods used in the same situation in ancient Ireland or the methods used in Scotland, the Gaelic cousin to Ireland.

1. The election of a Ciann Cath, or war leader. This would allow a family to select one of its members who does descend from the general line of the ancient Chief. That line would become the recognized, leaders of the family for a prescribed period of time, years or even generations. After the period of time, that line would be given full recognition of "Chief of the Name". This is the method used in Scotland.
2. An election using a derbhfine, or basically a council of those members of the family that represent the entire leadership of the clan. The ancient definition of the deibhfine was the family of the Chief down four generations. More recent organizations have included all those with noble titles, knighthood, or who were armigerous in their own right. Land ownership, nobility of office or leadership within the clan could also account for the makeup of these derbhfines. The derbfine would meet and select the new "Chief of the Name".
3. A very ancient and legal, under Brehon law, method is the Iarfine selection of family leadership worldwide. After every four generations, a family Chieftain could be selected. Eight Chieftains could then select a next level chieftain and on up until there is one Chieftain elevated to "Chief of the Name".

NOTES
[1] The ancient form of Irish kingship/leadership selection based on family lines as opposed to father-son descent.
[2] In Scotland, the same type position would probably give the “Chief” a chapeaux of office above his arms, and in Italy and Spain the coronet of a Patrician or Patron could be used.
[3] Having a coat of arms of their own.
www.doyle.com.au/chiefs.html



http://www.clanmcshane.org/chiefs.html

History of the Office of the Chief Herald


Irish Heraldic Authority

The Chief Herald of Ireland is the State’s authority on all heraldic matters relating to Ireland.
The earliest reference to a herald of arms for Ireland is to Chandos Herald, the herald of John Chandos. Chandos Herald was appointed “Ireland King of Arms” in 1382. Chandos had a number of successors, who appear to have been regarded as members of the English College of Arms, up to the time of Edward IV of England (1442 – 1483). The last recorded incumbent was Thomas Ashwell. It is not known whether the post continued after him.
In 1552 the Office of Ulster King of Arms was created by Edward VI, who recorded the event in his journal as follows:
Feb. 2nd. There was a King of Arms made for Ireland, whose name was Ulster, and his province was all Ireland; and he was Fourth Herald of Arms, and first Herald of Ireland
It is not certain why the name of the Irish province of Ulster was attached to the post. However, the Anglo-Norman earldom of Ulster had been vested in the English Crown since the reign of Edward IV, and it seems probable that the title was chosen to reflect this connection.
The first Ulster King of Arms was Bartholomew Butler, who by Letters Patent of 1 June 1552, was granted 'all rights, profits, commodities and emoluments in that office … with power … of inspecting, overseeing and correcting, and embodying the arms and ensigns of illustrious persons and of imposing and ordaining differences therein, according to the Laws of Arms: of granting Letters Patent of Arms to men of rank and fit persons; and of doing … all things which by right of custom were known to be incumbent of the office of a King of Arms'. The post continued until the death of its last incumbent, Sir Nevile Wilkinson, in 1941. Thomas Sadlier, Deputy Ulster, continued to operate the office until 1943.
In 1943 heraldic responsibility passed to the Irish State. Dr Edward MacLysaght, styled Chief Genealogical Officer to which was later added Chief Herald of Ireland, succeeded to the functions and powers of Ulster King of Arms. The old title of 'Ulster' was attached to the existing post of 'Norroy King of Arms', a member of the English College of Arms.
Further information on Heraldry in Ireland is available for download here:
The History of Heraldry in Ireland Heraldry_in_Ireland.pdf (0.15 MB, Adobe PDF)

Manuscript title page of 1607 Visitation of Dublin.

Quick Links

• Contact the Office of the Chief Herald
• Genealogy Advisory Service
• Organisation Chart, Office of the Chief Herald

http://www.nli.ie/en/history-of-the-office-of-the-chief-herald.aspx

goose2005 wrote: »

There were many slaves and serfs in old Ireland. Part of the reason that Gaelic chieftains get such a good press is that the poets and scribes who wrote history depended on the taoisigh for patronage - once English lords arrived, that support vanished.

MarchDub wrote: »

I know you keep going back to this question - but really this is more of a sociological question than one for historians.

History gives us 'some' insight into life at the time through the various written records but what you are asking is other than that. History is more concerned with the record of events and the pattern of cause and effect - not the everyday life of people.

MarchDub wrote: »

What?

CDfm wrote: »

I am teasing MD.

Though I am trying to get a handle on what it meant to be an Irish Lord in terms of land, property & people.

Johnmb wrote: »

Picture A. We were never a feudal country. By the time we were fully controlled, feudalism had changed considerably from what it was at the start of the invasion, and even then, we weren't conforming, hence all the trouble, rebellions, act of union, etc over the few centuries that we were conquered for.

MarchDub wrote: »

Thanks Johnmb - that's the very point I was trying to make but CDfm didn't seem to get my drift.

In 1166 the high-king Muirchertach MacLochlainn died. Dermot MacMurrough, losing his greatest ally and protector in MacLochlainn, saw his kingdom in Leinster invaded by O'Connor and O'Rourke. On this occasion the Ostmen (Norsemen) of Dublin also participated in ousting Dermot from his kingship in Leinster.


1051 -Godwin, Earl of Essex, and his sons, formidable rivals of King Edward the Confessor, were banished from England and sought the aid of Diarmait mac Máel na mBó, king of Uí Chennselaig and of Leinster (1042-1072), who was grandfather of Diarmat Mac Murchada (above). The next year they raised a fleet to launch attacks on the Devonshire, Somersetshire and Kentish coasts.
1055 - Aelfgar, earl of Anglia, son of Leofric, earl of Mercia, was banished for treason from England by Edward the Confessor. He went to Ireland where he raised a fleet, formed an alliance with Gruffydd ap Llewelyn, king of Gwynedd, and led their combined forces in an attack on the city of Hereford. As a result King Edward was obliged to restore him to the earldom of East Anglia.
1066 - After the battle of Hastings in 1066, the sons of the slain King Harold, son of Earl Godwin, sought aid from Diarmait mac Máel na mBó, and launched attacks on Britain over the next several years.

On the death of Diarmait Mac Murchada, Strongbow recognized his nephew Murtough as King of Uí Chennselaig, and the descendants of this sept (MacMurchadha, or MacMorrough) claimed the kingship of Leinster from the 13th century onward. Their most successful Chief, Art Caomhánach Mac Murchadha, or "Art Kavanagh MacMurrough" (+1416/7), succeeded in resisting Richard II of England, and in creating a relatively secure territory in Wexford and Carlow, from which he and his successors were able to menace the English Pale and extract regular "black rents," until late in the 16th century. The later descendants of the Chiefly line adopted the name Caomhánach (Kavanagh), after Art Caomhánach Mac Murchadha, who symbolized the Gaelic recovery of the late 14th century by reviving the title "King of Leinster."

Until the mid-20th century, the Chiefship was held by the MacMorrough Kavanagh family of Borris, Co. Carlow. The male line of descent from this family ended in 1953 with the death of Art MacMorrough Kavanagh of Borris, Chief of the Name, at which time the Chiefship devolved upon the Ballyhale line of the family. The present Chief is William Butler Kavanagh, The MacMorrough Kavanagh, Prince of Leinster, who succeeded his father (also William Butler Kavanagh) in 1962. He resides in Wales, as does his duly appointed Tánaiste, Simon MacMorrough Kavanagh.
http://www.hbci.com/~tiraha/leinster/history.html