HAP

Gjp650 · 29-05-2020 5:01pm #1

Hi,
At what stage does a prospective tenant need to tell you that they want to use HAP?
Once you agree to take them on, can they then tell you that they want to use HAP?
Can HAP pay the landlord and then the tenant top up the rest of the monthly rent amount due?
Is Rent Supplement still a thing?
thanks

handlemaster · 29-05-2020 8:31pm

Gjp650 wrote: »

Hi,
At what stage does a prospective tenant need to tell you that they want to use HAP?
Once you agree to take them on, can they then tell you that they want to use HAP?
Can HAP pay the landlord and then the tenant top up the rest of the monthly rent amount due?
Is Rent Supplement still a thing?
thanks

Straight up all the way. Be honest what is wrong with people! What would your story be up until you tell the landlord ?

sk8board · 29-05-2020 8:46pm

Gjp650 wrote: »

Hi,
At what stage does a prospective tenant need to tell you that they want to use HAP?
Once you agree to take them on, can they then tell you that they want to use HAP?
Can HAP pay the landlord and then the tenant top up the rest of the monthly rent amount due?
Is Rent Supplement still a thing?
thanks

LL here. I have two places on Gov support - one on HAP and one on permanent disability (which is effectively the same).

regarding your questions, remember you can't refuse HAP anyway, so in theory it doesn't matter what stage the tenant tells you they need to apply for it.

Telling you they need to apply for HAP the week after they move in is poor form obviously and the trust is immediately broken. In practice not many tenants have the money to pay the first month and the deposit anyway.

regarding payment, the tenant pays the Dept and they pay you (in arrears) on the final Wednesday of the month.

My main gripe with HAP was the application process took about 3.5 months here in Dublin, after compiling all the requirements (and there are a lot! you need a very clean nose, re LPT, tax clearance etc). took 8 weeks to review and approve the application, with no rent being paid, and then they missed the cutoff for that months transfers, so it took another 5 weeks. I received all the back rent in that first payment and its been smooth since then.

Gjp650 · 29-05-2020 9:47pm

are you charging market rates for rent? Does HAP pay you the full amount or a portion from HAP and the balance from tenant?
thanks

Fkall · 29-05-2020 9:54pm

While a Landlord may not discriminate against a HAP tenant he is not forced to accept HAP terms and conditions.

Gjp650 · 29-05-2020 10:17pm

so if you won't accept HAP terms, then tenant has to leave?

Dav010 · 29-05-2020 11:33pm

Gjp650 wrote: »

so if you won't accept HAP terms, then tenant has to leave?

No, if you do that you leave yourself open to a discrimination case in from of the WRC and a hefty fine, I think it’s up to €20k.

You can’t refuse to rent, nor remove a tenant based on them being eligible for HAP.

There are a few problems with HAP, the two main ones being that it is paid in arrears and that if the tenant stops paying their part to the LA, the LA stops paying the LL.

Tread carefully, remember, ignorance is not a defence when it comes to discrimination and illegal eviction.

Del2005 · 29-05-2020 11:41pm

Dav010 wrote: »

No, if you do that you leave yourself open to a discrimination case in from of the WRC and a hefty fine, I think it’s up to €20k.

You can’t refuse to rent, nor remove a tenant based on them being eligible for HAP.

There are a few problems with HAP, the two main ones being that it is paid in arrears and that if the tenant stops paying their part to the LA, the LA stops paying the LL.

Tread carefully, remember, ignorance is not a defence when it comes to discrimination and illegal eviction.

I think they were asking if the landlord doesn't provide the documents that HAP requires from the landlord can the landlord evict the tenant. To which the answer is yes as they won't be paying any rent.

Dav010 · 30-05-2020 12:07am

Del2005 wrote: »

I think they were asking if the landlord doesn't provide the documents that HAP requires from the landlord can the landlord evict the tenant. To which the answer is yes as they won't be paying any rent.

Ah I see, thanks. Would refusal of the terms of HAP not be risking an accusation of discrimination?

Del2005 · 30-05-2020 3:43am

Dav010 wrote: »

Ah I see, thanks. Would refusal of the terms of HAP not be risking an accusation of discrimination?

I doubt it. You have followed the law by not refusing HAP, they can't force someone to send in a tax clearance certificate or carry out work to meet their specs for a property.

DubCount · 30-05-2020 7:36pm

Del2005 wrote: »

I doubt it. You have followed the law by not refusing HAP, they can't force someone to send in a tax clearance certificate or carry out work to meet their specs for a property.

I disagree. Not agreeing to T&Cs of HAP would be constructive discrimination IMHO. Saying you will not send in a tax clearance certificate is effectively discriminating, as this stance only impacts on HAP recipients, and you could get the tax clearance if you went to the trouble to do so.

the_syco · 30-05-2020 9:04pm

DubCount wrote: »

I disagree. Not agreeing to T&Cs of HAP would be constructive discrimination IMHO. Saying you will not send in a tax clearance certificate is effectively discriminating, as this stance only impacts on HAP recipients, and you could get the tax clearance if you went to the trouble to do so.

So far the only person who got in trouble for doing this, got in trouble as they had previously said that they wouldn't agree to letting to the tenant with HAP.

Bikerman2019 · 30-05-2020 9:07pm

Just curious. What if the LL COULDNT meet the conditions of HAP. Maybe they genuinely could not satisfy the tax clearance requirement?

the_syco · 31-05-2020 2:13am

Bikerman2019 wrote: »

Just curious. What if the LL COULDNT meet the conditions of HAP. Maybe they genuinely could not satisfy the tax clearance requirement?

If they honestly can't, and have never said that they don't want HAP (and thus not assumed that they're not co-operating with the HAP process), I assume HAP won't be given. They'll then have to go through the eviction process to evict the tenant.

sk8board · 31-05-2020 8:53pm

It’s pretty simple folks - you can’t refuse HAP if it’s offered.

Therefore your outcomes are:
tenant continues to pay the rent as before
Tenant reports you for not accepting HaP
HAP report you to revenue for not being tax compliant
Tenant stops paying rent and you initiate eviction proceedings - and still end up getting reported for not accepting HAP, unless you can show you were planning to sell the house

Too many LLs were avoiding tax on a mass scale and HAP is forcing people to go legit or leave the market. The RTB and Revenue write to over 20,000 non-compliant landlords every single year. Almost all will sell up or go legit.

To answer the OPs other question, I get the >full amount< from the social welfare Dept, on the last Wednesday of the month, in arrears. The tenant pays them their portion each month separately

godtabh · 31-05-2020 11:08pm

Fkall wrote: »

While a Landlord may not discriminate against a HAP tenant he is not forced to accept HAP terms and conditions.

What does that mean? E.g could you say yes but I don’t accept months in arrears

sandyxxx · 01-06-2020 1:20am

godtabh wrote: »

What does that mean? E.g could you say yes but I don’t accept months in arrears

My interpretation is that:
.... “I accept HAP,but need this months rent & a months rent & deposit in advance.....and I’m not prepared to wait 6,8,12 weeks for my first instalment to be paid and rent backdated”......
Makes sense, The admin delay is a pain but the monthly email indicating payment is a Godsend!

sk8board · 01-06-2020 11:25am

sandyxxx wrote: »

My interpretation is that:
.... “I accept HAP,but need this months rent & a months rent & deposit in advance.....and I’m not prepared to wait 6,8,12 weeks for my first instalment to be paid and rent backdated”......
Makes sense, The admin delay is a pain but the monthly email indicating payment is a Godsend!

You don’t have a choice to negotiate any of the terms.
The gov view HAP payments as a more secure form of income for the LL, and the gov is a tier 1 debtor, so payments in arrears are a result of that.

Having been through this arduous process twice, the admin is a killer and delays are far too long, but equally at the moment as a full time LL in a covid world, having the certainty of the monthly rental payment is a good thing.

Dav010 · 01-06-2020 12:14pm

sk8board wrote: »

You don’t have a choice to negotiate any of the terms.
The gov view HAP payments as a more secure form of income for the LL, and the gov is a tier 1 debtor, so payments in arrears are a result of that.

Having been through this arduous process twice, the admin is a killer and delays are far too long, but equally at the moment as a full time LL in a covid world, having the certainty of the monthly rental payment is a good thing.

HAP is an arrangement between the tenant and local authority for the payment of rent, the LA has no contract with the LL and therefore has no grounds on which to negotiate when the tenant pays their rent. Payment of rent in advance is the recognised way for rent to be paid, it is up to the tenant to ensure they abide by the terms of the lease and pay rent in advance and on time. If they don't, then they are in arrears and like every other tenant (current emergency period excluded) can be evicted for non payment of rent, even if they are in receipt, or are going to be in receipt of HAP. This means that tenants pay rent themselves up to the point where HAP kicks in, and the first HAP payment is used as payment for the next month.

davindub · 01-06-2020 6:33pm

Dav010 wrote: »

HAP is an arrangement between the tenant and local authority for the payment of rent, the LA has no contract with the LL and therefore has no grounds on which to negotiate when the tenant pays their rent. Payment of rent in advance is the recognised way for rent to be paid, it is up to the tenant to ensure they abide by the terms of the lease and pay rent in advance and on time. If they don't, then they are in arrears and like every other tenant (current emergency period excluded) can be evicted for non payment of rent, even if they are in receipt, or are going to be in receipt of HAP. This means that tenants pay rent themselves up to the point where HAP kicks in, and the first HAP payment is used as payment for the next month.

You should be aware of s.13 of the equal status acts if you wish to post anything that could lead to another person breaching the equal status act. If you research enough you will find commentary on the possible liability for the publishers of such information as well.

sk8board · 01-06-2020 7:04pm

Dav010 wrote: »

HAP is an arrangement between the tenant and local authority for the payment of rent, the LA has no contract with the LL and therefore has no grounds on which to negotiate when the tenant pays their rent. Payment of rent in advance is the recognised way for rent to be paid, it is up to the tenant to ensure they abide by the terms of the lease and pay rent in advance and on time. If they don't, then they are in arrears and like every other tenant (current emergency period excluded) can be evicted for non payment of rent, even if they are in receipt, or are going to be in receipt of HAP. This means that tenants pay rent themselves up to the point where HAP kicks in, and the first HAP payment is used as payment for the next month.

Technically correct - in my case I knew the tenant and the LA accepted early on that they would cover the rental arrears while the admin process took its course.
Otherwise I’d have had the tenant cover all rent as usual during the admin process and the LA would reimburse them instead.

Dav010 · 01-06-2020 7:06pm

davindub wrote: »

You should be aware of s.13 of the equal status acts if you wish to post anything that could lead to another person breaching the equal status act. If you research enough you will find commentary on the possible liability for the publishers of such information as well.

My post has nothing to do with discrimination. Put simply for you, if the lease says rent is to be paid monthly, and in advance, it is the tenants responsibility to pay it. HAP is a contract with the tenant, not the LL. If a HAP tenant does not pay their rent on time, like any other tenant they are in arrears and subject to the same rules as a non HAP tenant.

If you read the link below, it states 3(2) that the tenant is responsible for payment of rent until the HAP payment commences, and further down 3(8) it confirms that no contract exists between LA and LL, the LA pays on behalf of the tenant.

http://hap.ie/uploads/files/pdf/landlord-booklet-english.pdf

How are you interpreting the post you quoted as breaching the equal status act?

davindub · 01-06-2020 7:55pm

Dav010 wrote: »

My post has nothing to do with discrimination. Put simply for you, if the lease says rent is to be paid monthly, and in advance, it is the tenants responsibility to pay it. HAP is a contract with the tenant, not the LL. If a HAP tenant does not pay their rent on time, like any other tenant they are in arrears and subject to the same rules as a non HAP tenant.

If you read the link below, it states 3(2) that the tenant is responsible for payment of rent until the HAP payment commences, and further down 3(8) it confirms that no contract exists between LA and LL, the LA pays on behalf of the tenant.

http://hap.ie/uploads/files/pdf/landlord-booklet-english.pdf

How are you interpreting the post you quoted as breaching the equal status act?

3.2 does not say that. Nor does it say what you posted anywhere in that document.

As I said....section 13...

Dav010 · 01-06-2020 8:11pm

davindub wrote: »

3.2 does not say that. Nor does it say what you posted anywhere in that document.

As I said....section 13...

Ya, it really does, the tenant has to pay the rent until the HAP comes through in accordance with the tenancy agreement.

3(2)

“When the application is approved, the local authority will start making
HAP payments on the last Wednesday of each month directly into your bank account subject to the scheme’s conditions. You should note that the earliest date from which a local authority will make HAP payments to you is the date they receive a complete and valid HAP application form from the applicant and you as landlord. If an applicant moves into a property before this date, they will be liable for any rent due.”

How did my post breach the equal status act? Second time asking.

davindub · 01-06-2020 9:32pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Ya, it really does, the tenant has to pay the rent until the HAP comes through in accordance with the tenancy agreement.

3(2)

“When the application is approved, the local authority will start making
HAP payments on the last Wednesday of each month directly into your bank account subject to the scheme’s conditions. You should note that the earliest date from which a local authority will make HAP payments to you is the date they receive a complete and valid HAP application form from the applicant and you as landlord. If an applicant moves into a property before this date, they will be liable for any rent due.”

How did my post breach the equal status act? Second time asking.

Well there you go....

Dav010 · 01-06-2020 9:41pm

davindub wrote: »

Well there you go....

This is the tenants booklet in relation to HAP.

http://hap.ie/uploads/files/pdf/tenants-booklet-english.pdf

Quote:

“ Your tenancy will be covered under the terms of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 (RTA) (as amended). This means that the tenancy agreement is, or will be, between you and your landlord. The local authority is not your landlord. Your landlord is the person you made the rental agreement with and who the local authority pays the HAP payment to. You can find further information about this on the RTB website www.rtb.ie“

Quote:

“ Your relationship as a tenant with your landlord, as provided for under the under the Residential Tenancies Act, is unaffected by this arrangement.”

If your lease agreement states rent is paid in advance, this continues until the HAP payment comes through. This can then be used for the next months rent. If rent is not paid as per the agreed terms of the lease, the tenant may go into are arrears and is subject to the terms of the terms of the RTA, the LL can issue notice of arrears, same as any tenant.

https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/beginning-a-tenancy/payi/

https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/during-a-tenancy/rent-arrears/

Chapter 2, section 16 of the RTA

Provisions regarding tenant's obligations

Obligations of tenants.

16.—In addition to the obligations arising by or under any other enactment, a tenant of a dwelling shall—

(a) pay to the landlord or his or her authorised agent (or any other person where required to do so by any enactment)—

(i) the rent provided for under the tenancy concerned on the date it falls due for payment

Third time of asking, how is what I posted in breach of the equal status act?

Fkall · 01-06-2020 10:29pm

sk8board wrote: »

You don’t have a choice to negotiate any of the terms.
The gov view HAP payments as a more secure form of income for the LL, and the gov is a tier 1 debtor, so payments in arrears are a result of that.

Having been through this arduous process twice, the admin is a killer and delays are far too long, but equally at the moment as a full time LL in a covid world, having the certainty of the monthly rental payment is a good thing.

As a rule, I delete all clauses in the HAP agreement that put an additional burden on me as a Landlord. In particular I insist on the rent being paid monthly in advance as stated in the rental contract.

HAP have yet to challenge any of the changes to their standard contract.

And my rents continue to be paid monthly in advance.

davindub · 01-06-2020 10:47pm

Dav010 wrote: »

This is the tenants booklet in relation to HAP.

http://hap.ie/uploads/files/pdf/tenants-booklet-english.pdf

Quote:

“ Your tenancy will be covered under the terms of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 (RTA) (as amended). This means that the tenancy agreement is, or will be, between you and your landlord. The local authority is not your landlord. Your landlord is the person you made the rental agreement with and who the local authority pays the HAP payment to. You can find further information about this on the RTB website www.rtb.ie“

Quote:

“ Your relationship as a tenant with your landlord, as provided for under the under the Residential Tenancies Act, is unaffected by this arrangement.”

If your lease agreement states rent is paid in advance, this continues until the HAP payment comes through. This can then be used for the next months rent. If rent is not paid as per the agreed terms of the lease, the tenant may go into are arrears and is subject to the terms of the terms of the RTA, the LL can issue notice of arrears, same as any tenant.

https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/beginning-a-tenancy/payi/

https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/during-a-tenancy/rent-arrears/

Chapter 2, section 16 of the RTA

Provisions regarding tenant's obligations

Obligations of tenants.

16.—In addition to the obligations arising by or under any other enactment, a tenant of a dwelling shall—

(a) pay to the landlord or his or her authorised agent (or any other person where required to do so by any enactment)—

(i) the rent provided for under the tenancy concerned on the date it falls due for payment

Third time of asking, how is what I posted in breach of the equal status act?

What was the point of the above quotes if your HAP booklet quote was relevant?

Equal status act....IHREC. The RTA could explicitly say what you allege it means (it doesn't) and it still would not matter.....

Bazz1234 · 19-06-2020 1:07pm

Potential Hap Landlord here & New to all this lads. What does it mean ‘in arrears’? Do HAP tenants not pay in advance like others? Btw, is anyone finding it’s almost impossible to rent to people paying out of there own pocket? HAP seems to be 90% of the enquiries I get. Nothing against it, just new to it and have never done my own tax before etc. Tbh that part is a little bit off putting

the_syco · 19-06-2020 1:41pm

Bazz1234 wrote: »

What does it mean ‘in arrears’?

Month starts on the 1st. Non-HAP people pay before the 1st. HAP pays at the end of the month.

Bazz1234 wrote: »

Do HAP tenants not pay in advance like others?

HAP tenants pay the council, and the council pay you at the end of the month.

Bazz1234 wrote: »

Btw, is anyone finding it’s almost impossible to rent to people paying out of there own pocket?

Unfortunately, a lot of people got laid off due to COVID, so less people in the pool.

Bazz1234 wrote: »

HAP seems to be 90% of the enquiries I get.

If the rent is below a certain point, it will draw in HAP enquiries. How decent is the place that you're trying to rent? Is it in an RPZ?

Bazz1234 wrote: »

Nothing against it, just new to it and have never done my own tax before etc. Tbh that part is a little bit off putting

If paying a mortgage, try to get it paused due to COVID. If not paying a mortgage for the property, perhaps wait until everyone starts working again, and rent it out then.

Bazz1234 · 19-06-2020 4:30pm

Thanks very much for the reply mate. Very informative. Yes it’s Avery good house I’m renting out, it’s my home. I’m not a landlord with a few properties etc. I’m heading off myself. This is why I have no idea of the tax side etc.

HAP

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