Snooker Shoot Out

FR01 · 22-02-2020 3:46pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

No, the ref doesnt see it, but is obviously hearing it from the marker and tries to intercede before ronnie takes the shot. Question is should she still have called the foul anyway? There's no precedent for it so i cant see its her fault. Whether ronnie knew he'd fouled is another thing, with the rest incident i have little doubt, but this one is nowhere near as blatant so i dont know.

Last night you could write off as a mistake on both parties involved, even McManus should have said something. I’m still off the opinion that last years foul wasn’t intentional, but you know what they say about opinions !

And how about Carter recently ? Says he hit the ball but tv replays clearly say he didn’t !

Final word should rest with the ref, as in case with Jan Verhass in the World final 2 years ago.

Chalk McHugh · 22-02-2020 3:50pm

FR01 wrote: »

Not sure what the actually ruling is there?

Not sure myself but its bang out of order ignoring the referee calling out his name in a quite loud manner. Even if he was mid shot he should have acknowledged her after that shot but continued to ignore her. I think its a disgrace. I was always a big fan of Romnie's talent and playing style but i have lost a bit of respect for him for his bulllying of referees and cheating and basic lack of manners and courtesy over the years. Really hope he doesn't win this now.

BQQ · 22-02-2020 4:00pm

FR01 wrote: »

To be fair to him when that shot was replayed to him after the match he was genuinely embarrassed and even offered to play the game again. Across the game 99 % of the players will call a foul, look at Barry Pinches yesterday , he calls a foul and loses the frame over it. Without naming names there are however two players who have previous and are well know for it.

Regarding the yellow last night, I’d ask anyone out there who plays or has played the game , has it ever happened to you ? I’ve seen it happen quite a few times, not for one minute saying she’s not a top ref but it’s happened the top guys too.

Why not call a spade a spade?
Ronnie O’Sullivan and Ali Carter are cheats!

Joe_ Public · 22-02-2020 4:03pm

The issue last night is more about technology than what players do or dont do and to whom and why we should give benefit of doubt. I dont see why there cant be a decree arrived at setting out what this technology can do and how it is going to be used. Explain it to everybody, refs, players, fans. Not a learn as we go along thing. Last night is just the shootout so nobodys too bothered, but wait for it to happen in a deciding frame at the crucible and then what?

Chalk McHugh · 22-02-2020 4:11pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

The issue last night is more about technology than what players do or dont do and to whom and why we should give benefit of doubt. I dont see why there cant be a decree arrived at setting out what this technology can do and how it is going to be used. Explain it to everybody, refs, players, fans. Not a learn as we go along thing. Last night is just the shootout so nobodys too bothered, but wait for it to happen in a deciding frame at the crucible and then what?

Shoot Out or not i think its deplorable that the games greatest player cheated and then made it worse by blatantly ignoring a referee calling his name in quite an audible manner. What kind of an example is that setting for respecting referees'? Everyone is afraid of Ronnie and you lads said nothing was even said about it on Eurosport post match. Don't question or upset Ronnie seems to be the mantra as he will make your life difficult.

Mervyn Skidmore · 22-02-2020 4:13pm

If the have announcements for time, and noises for seconds remaining, surely they can have a time off sound that either referee can signal. O'Sullivan should be disqualified, but then again the ref should've been more assertive. She made a few mistakes, also put the yellow on the green spot at one point.

Chalk McHugh · 22-02-2020 4:17pm

Mervyn Skidmore wrote: »

If the have announcements for time, and noises for seconds remaining, surely they can have a time off sound that either referee can signal. O'Sullivan should be disqualified, but then again the ref should've been more assertive. She made a few mistakes, also put the yellow on the green spot at one point.

She made that mistake on the yellow because understandably she was a bit rattled due to Ronnie blatantly ignoring her calling his attention. No way is it her fault. If Ronnie had any decency he would have acknowledged her and she would have told him about the foul and that would be the end of it. What was she to do, scream.a little louder for him to stop?

Mervyn Skidmore · 22-02-2020 4:20pm

Chalk McHugh wrote: »

She made that mistake on the yellow because understandably she was a bit rattled due to Ronnie blatantly ignoring her calling his attention. No way is it her fault. If Ronnie had any decency he would have acknowledged her and she would have told him about the foul and that would be the end of it. What was she to do, scream.a little louder for him to stop?

I agree with you. What I'm saying is if there was a noise that either the referee or the scorer could initiate to signal time off, it woukd be beneficial for all. The ref obviously didn't notice the foul but the scorer did. He should have been able to stop the clock and clear up the issue.

FR01 · 22-02-2020 4:22pm

Chalk McHugh wrote: »

She made that mistake on the yellow because understandably she was a bit rattled due to Ronnie blatantly ignoring her calling his attention. No way is it her fault. If Ronnie had any decency he would have acknowledged her and she would have told him about the foul and that would be the end of it. What was she to do, scream.a little louder for him to stop?

No excuse really, she’s the ref, if she’s easily rattled then choose a different sport to officiate in.

My question still remains as to why didn’t McManus pipe up ? He’s not one to sit on the fence, he certainly calls a spade a spade.

Chalk McHugh · 22-02-2020 4:27pm

FR01 wrote: »

No excuse really, she’s the ref, if she’s easily rattled then choose a different sport to officiate in.

My question still remains as to why didn’t McManus pipe up ? He’s not one to sit on the fence, he certainly calls a spade a spade.

She asked Ronnie to stop? What more can she do if he ignores her and carries on? Disgraceful lack of sportsmanship.

FR01 · 22-02-2020 4:52pm

Bull man joins Hill in the last 32, hopefully Ken can win this evening and join them in the final day tomorrow. A few bob coming towards the two young Cork players, badly needed to fund their snooker careers.

Well done lads !

Joe_ Public · 22-02-2020 4:54pm

As an amatuer do you get to keep the cash? Not sure on that one. Experience is invaluable anyway.

FR01 · 22-02-2020 4:56pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

As an amatuer do you get to keep the cash? Not sure on that one. Experience is invaluable anyway.

Good question , I think you do, but as money is basically ranking points now it’s as good as cash for the lads.

Joe_ Public · 22-02-2020 5:05pm

FR01 wrote: »

Good question , I think you do, but as money is basically ranking points now it’s as good as cash for the lads.

Would seem to be against rules, technically anyway, but not sure how enforced they are. Cash a lot more useful than the ranking points anyway as neither player has a tour card.

Actually iirc james cahill got to keep prize money at the world's last year so same will apply here you'd think.

FR01 · 22-02-2020 5:25pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Would seem to be against rules, technically anyway, but not sure how enforced they are. Cash a lot more useful than the ranking points anyway as neither player has a tour card.

Actually iirc james cahill got to keep prize money at the world's last year so same will apply here you'd think.

True enough, prize money is decent, they are both guaranteed £1K so far which doubles each match they win. Will go a long way towards paying their expenses for the tournament. 3 nights in a hotel, flights, travel ie taxis, food, it eats into the prize money.

Winner: £50,000
Runner-up: £20,000
Semi-final: £8,000
Quarter-final: £4,000
Last 16: £2,000
Last 32: £1,000
Last 64: £500
Last 128: £250 (prize money at this stage will not count towards prize money rankings)
Highest break: £5,000

Chalk McHugh · 22-02-2020 5:40pm

FR01 wrote: »

True enough, prize money is decent, they are both guaranteed £1K so far which doubles each match they win. Will go a long way towards paying their expenses for the tournament. 3 nights in a hotel, flights, travel ie taxis, food, it eats into the prize money.

Winner: £50,000
Runner-up: £20,000
Semi-final: £8,000
Quarter-final: £4,000
Last 16: £2,000
Last 32: £1,000
Last 64: £500
Last 128: £250 (prize money at this stage will not count towards prize money rankings)
Highest break: £5,000

At least Fergal walked away with 250 squid last night. Not much left after flights and a hotel though. Or do the players get travel allowance? Doubt it.

FR01 · 22-02-2020 5:41pm

Chalk McHugh wrote: »

At least Fergal walked away with 250 squid last night. Not much left after flights and a hotel though. Or do the players get travel allowance? Doubt it.

No unfortunately it’s every man for himself re the travel expenses!

Chalk McHugh · 22-02-2020 5:45pm

This Carty lad holds the cue nowhere near his chin. Never saw a cue action as far to one side as that.

FR01 · 22-02-2020 5:47pm

Chalk McHugh wrote: »

This Carty lad holds the cue nowhere near his chin. Never saw a cue action as far to one side as that.

Google Graham Miles

H.20v3 · 22-02-2020 5:50pm

AllForIt wrote: »

I can't watch stuff like this. On principle. I don't see other sports changing their format for what I think is to reach to a wider audience - as if there was a push to find a format for snooker that's a bit more 'populist'.

Golf does totally fine the way it is. They do have variations like the Ryder cup but that's not done to change the game. Snooker should stay the way it is, and having said that I'm not even happy with the way matches have been shortened, especially in the UK Championships. I'd like to see this reversed. 'Come backs' are not something you see much of anymore and that's because there's no scope for it, although they still do happen. But it's more fun in long drawn out matches.

If snooker stays exactly the way it is, i.e. largely UK based, then I'm happy with that. If it should go global I think it should do so on it's own merit's and not be changed to force it to do so. GAA isn't global and why should it. Is it any less worthy because it isn't. Why does everything have to be global anyway. If snooker becomes more popular worldwide - fine, if it doesn't, fine too. I don't ever see Snooker loosing it's popularity here or in the UK. I don't think Snooker is under serious threat for lack of global recognition. There are no pool events on TV here and I think a lot of western European pool players enjoy watching snooker and learn a lot from it. It's just the same thing basically. I think sometimes we forget what we have and try to fix things that aren't broken.

Too late now with the way the pockets are gone

Century means nothing now

Chalk McHugh · 22-02-2020 5:51pm

FR01 wrote: »

Google Graham Miles

Bloody heck thats bad. Opposite side to Carty but just as horrible to look at.

FR01 · 22-02-2020 5:53pm

Chalk McHugh wrote: »

Bloody heck thats bad. Opposite side to Carty but just as horrible to look at.

:-)

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 22-02-2020 6:25pm

Chalk McHugh wrote: »

Thanks for that. Watched it. Again that is quite blatant cheating in my book. Black moved quite a bit. Was very obvious. Referee obviously saw it and quite rightly asked Ronnie to stop but he ignored her and played on. I feel bit sorry for her there. Ronnie had to here her but played on and that is very poor form. Hard to believe that actually. He should have forfeited the frame for ignoring the referee.

Just watched this myself. She called "Ronnie, stop!" just as he was delivering the cue to pot the red — and then, after the red went down, she just let him play on?

That's terrible refereeing. She should have called "Foul — Alan McManus seven" and given McManus cue ball in hand in addition to his foul points.

Chalk McHugh · 22-02-2020 6:39pm

Ryker Pitiful Filet wrote: »

Just watched this myself. She called "Ronnie, stop!" just as he was delivering the cue to pot the red — and then, after the red went down, she just let him play on?

That's terrible refereeing. She should have called "Foul — Alan McManus seven" and given McManus cue ball in hand in addition to his foul points.

Yes without a doubt she should not have let him play on when he ignored her. She should have stepped in after his shot and stopped it. But that doesn't excuse Ronnie ignoring her. Ronnie by far the biggest culprit here. But the ref should have been tougher qnd stood up to him.

Joe_ Public · 22-02-2020 6:57pm

Its a very fast moving situation, she didnt see the foul and we dont know what precisely was being indicated to her by the marker. In over 100 years, or however long snooker has been on the go, no ref has ever been in that situation she found herself in so I'd tend to cut her a bit of slack.

FR01 · 22-02-2020 7:15pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Its a very fast moving situation, she didnt see the foul and we dont know what precisely was being indicated to her by the marker. In over 100 years, or however long snooker has been on the go, no ref has ever been in that situation she found herself in so I'd tend to cut her a bit of slack.

She will still get a bollicking from the TD

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 22-02-2020 7:15pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Its a very fast moving situation, she didnt see the foul and we dont know what precisely was being indicated to her by the marker. In over 100 years, or however long snooker has been on the go, no ref has ever been in that situation she found herself in so I'd tend to cut her a bit of slack.

I appreciate it was a fast-moving situation, but this is the same referee who recently let Ali Carter off with claiming to hit the yellow (replay showed he didn't). She is far too soft with players and lets them away with far too much. If players get the sense she's a pushover, this will only get worse, to the detriment of the sport.

Alan McManus should have had ball in hand yesterday and could easily have won from that position, so it has fairly serious consequences.

FR01 · 22-02-2020 7:21pm

Ryker Pitiful Filet wrote: »

I appreciate it was a fast-moving situation, but this is the same referee who recently let Ali Carter off with claiming to hit the yellow (replay showed he didn't). She is far too soft with players and lets them away with far too much. If players get the sense she's a pushover, this will only get worse, to the detriment of the sport.

Alan McManus should have had ball in hand yesterday and could easily have won from that position, so it has fairly serious consequences.

100 % agree

Muppet Man · 22-02-2020 7:31pm

Well... I'm not a big ronnie fan, but no denying the black moves.

Wrt to this foul, the black clearly moves when the camera is zoomed in, but really hard for the ref to see it... So I wouldn't say she should have caught it per se. For the record, I actually don't think his cue hits the black at all. I think because he is cueing down hard on the pink, the vibration on the table / cloth caused the black to move slightly. He's cueing down really hard and that will causing a vibration in the slate. I honestly think if he felt it hitting his cue, he would have called it himself.

Wrt to not stopping when the ref asked him, that was bang out of order... And she should have insisted he stop.

Joe_ Public · 22-02-2020 7:33pm

Ryker Pitiful Filet wrote: »

I appreciate it was a fast-moving situation, but this is the same referee who recently let Ali Carter off with claiming to hit the yellow (replay showed he didn't). She is far too soft with players and lets them away with far too much. If players get the sense she's a pushover, this will only get worse, to the detriment of the sport.

Alan McManus should have had ball in hand yesterday and could easily have won from that position, so it has fairly serious consequences.

As far as I'm aware she technically did nothing wrong. Once ronnie had played the next shot, what else could she do? It was too late at that point so, as chalk suggests, the spotlight should fall on ronnie. Short of actually wresting the cue from ronnies grip, i dont know what dereliction of duty there was. She may well be a substandard ref, as a few of them are, but i personally dont believe she is the main issue in that situation.

Chalk McHugh · 22-02-2020 7:42pm

Some posters said earlier that Eurosport didnt even raise the issue back at the studio afterwards? Is this true? If it is it is a disgrace and stinks of Goldstein and White not wanting to get involved and ruffle Ronnie's feathers. This was a serious issue and Ronnie should have been at least questioned about it. Really poor form all round and its hard to look at Ronnie having a laugh with Jimmy White earlier while getting well paid to comment on all other matches and not a word on his own match which is the only controversial match of the week.

Joe_ Public · 22-02-2020 7:56pm

Goldstein didnt mention it but could be he didnt hear about it till after. It wasnt something immediately apparent at the time. But not sure really. Ronnie says he couldnt hear the ref shouting stop because of the noise. Plausible explanation or convenient excuse? Take your pick.

Muppet Man · 22-02-2020 7:57pm

They just talked about it on Eurosport just now live.

Chalk McHugh · 22-02-2020 7:59pm

Muppet Man wrote: »

They just talked about it on Eurosport just now live.

Yea just caught the end of it with Jimmy White saying Ronnie wouldn't cheat. Thats that then. I guess Ronnie wouldn't cheat.

hetuzozaho · 22-02-2020 8:00pm

Chalk McHugh wrote: »

Some posters said earlier that Eurosport didnt even raise the issue back at the studio afterwards? Is this true? If it is it is a disgrace and stinks of Goldstein and White not wanting to get involved and ruffle Ronnie's feathers. This was a serious issue and Ronnie should have been at least questioned about it. Really poor form all round and its hard to look at Ronnie having a laugh with Jimmy White earlier while getting well paid to comment on all other matches and not a word on his own match which is the only controversial match of the week.

They've questioned him about fouling in the past though?

Muppet Man · 22-02-2020 8:07pm

Chalk McHugh wrote: »

Yea just caught the end of it with Jimmy White saying Ronnie wouldn't cheat. Thats that then. I guess Ronnie wouldn't cheat.

Neal/Jimmy saying no one saw the foul until the marker saw it and flagged it, and then no one heard the ref because of all the background noise.

I'm still giving ronnie the benefit of the doubt - that if he knew it was a foul he would have called it.

Muppet Man · 22-02-2020 8:31pm

That Ali Carter / Seargent match was one of best frames of snooker I've ever seen. Epic.

Youtube summary reel of Carter match
https://youtu.be/XAKIoWC9dUU

Cosmo Kramer · 22-02-2020 9:08pm

I'm probably in the minority here but I actually quite like the shootout for what it is and watch quite a lot of it most years - a lot of the time with the sound down because of the morons in the crowd, but the snooker itself is very watchable.

I could actually see some kind of non-ranking shootout series in the off season working quite well - a bit like the Premier league darts, get the top 12 or 16 players as well as a few legends and some of the newer talent involved and it could be something for Sky to show in the summer when they're a bit low on sports rights.

The shootout format has no real bearing on 'proper' snooker but there's potential there as a marketing tool to increase interest in the game. Other long form sports like golf and cricket are having to use shorter formats to grow their sports and it is no harm for snooker to do the same.

zuutroy · 22-02-2020 9:25pm

Must say I've been converted a bit to the format and have enjoyed it this weekend but the crowd drives me nuts still. Regular crowd rules would really improve it.
Think the Ronnie situation was just an unfortunate mess up with no badness in it.

Joe_ Public · 22-02-2020 9:34pm

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

I'm probably in the minority here but I actually quite like the shootout for what it is and watch quite a lot of it most years - a lot of the time with the sound down because of the morons in the crowd, but the snooker itself is very watchable.

I could actually see some kind of non-ranking shootout series in the off season working quite well - a bit like the Premier league darts, get the top 12 or 16 players as well as a few legends and some of the newer talent involved and it could be something for Sky to show in the summer when they're a bit low on sports rights.

The shootout format has no real bearing on 'proper' snooker but there's potential there as a marketing tool to increase interest in the game. Other long form sports like golf and cricket are having to use shorter formats to grow their sports and it is no harm for snooker to do the same.

Not sure you're in the minority. I see the logic of your post, some good points there.

That said, i see a danger in it. With cricket it seems to me that the short form isnt just an addition anymore, but is actually taking over and test cricket is very gradually being squeezed. It'll be a 4 day game before long.

Snookers going same way too. Best of 7s are the usual now, long form uk champs was scrapped and you hear more and more people advocating reducing frames at the worlds. Tv companies would especially love it! I just worry its a slippery slope, once short form gets its feet in the door, it basically takes over the whole house!

Like i said here before, that may just be me being old school and out of touch. But that's how i see it.

Muppet Man · 22-02-2020 9:36pm

Ken going home

Joe_ Public · 22-02-2020 9:43pm

Ken and Fergal gone home, Ross and Aaron marching onwards. Could it be a sign of the changing of the guard!

FR01 · 22-02-2020 9:45pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Not sure you're in the minority. I see the logic of your post, some good points there.

That said, i see a danger in it. With cricket it seems to me that the short form isnt just an addition anymore, but is actually taking over and test cricket is very gradually being squeezed. It'll be a 4 day game before long.

Snookers going same way too. Best of 7s are the usual now, long form uk champs was scrapped and you hear more and more people advocating reducing frames at the worlds. Tv companies would especially love it! I just worry its a slippery slope, once short form gets its feet in the door, it basically takes over the whole house!

Like i said here before, that may just be me being old school and out of touch. But that's how i see it.

Snooker won’t change much more, and the format of the worlds will certainly not change.

FR01 · 22-02-2020 9:46pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Ken and Fergal gone home, Ross and Aaron marching onwards. Could it be a sign of the changing of the guard!

Don’t think so, Ken & Fergal May lose their pro cards but no changing of the guard just yet

FR01 · 22-02-2020 9:48pm

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

I'm probably in the minority here but I actually quite like the shootout for what it is and watch quite a lot of it most years - a lot of the time with the sound down because of the morons in the crowd, but the snooker itself is very watchable.

I could actually see some kind of non-ranking shootout series in the off season working quite well - a bit like the Premier league darts, get the top 12 or 16 players as well as a few legends and some of the newer talent involved and it could be something for Sky to show in the summer when they're a bit low on sports rights.

The shootout format has no real bearing on 'proper' snooker but there's potential there as a marketing tool to increase interest in the game. Other long form sports like golf and cricket are having to use shorter formats to grow their sports and it is no harm for snooker to do the same.

They did have the snooker premier league a few years back which offered a decent pot to the winner but the calendar is so full now it’s hard to find the time to fit in the matches.

Joe_ Public · 22-02-2020 10:00pm

No problem fitting in the greatly loved championship league anyway.

Chalk McHugh · 22-02-2020 10:10pm

Great win for Billy Castle there. Delighted for him.

Muppet Man · 22-02-2020 10:13pm

Chalk McHugh wrote: »

Great win for Billy Castle there. Delighted for him.

Are you delighted because he won, or delighted cos he beat Ronnie

It was a great win though to be fair. Snooker on green won it for him. Sloppy start from Ronnie.

FR01 · 22-02-2020 10:13pm

Joe_ Public wrote: »

No problem fitting in the greatly loved championship league anyway.

Greatly loved !!! :-)

Joe_ Public · 22-02-2020 10:15pm

Same as last time he faced a bit of rules controversy, he goes and loses next match! Some really bad misses there but castle took his chance well enough, good on him.

Snooker Shoot Out

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