22,000 homeowners avoid property tax for yet another year

L1011 · 24-05-2020 9:44pm

Graham wrote: »

A higher property tax might help lessen some of the development levies imposed by local authorities.

Not only would that reduce build costs and hopefully property prices, it should also even out local authority revenue rather than mirroring the peaks & troughs of the construction industry.

Absolutely has to be considered - councils need sustained income not lumpy levy income. Its as if we learnt nothing from the crash in that regard.

People who bought new and paid high levies will not be happy - but its impossible not to piss someone off when changing the rules. Plenty paid huge stamp duty %s and that's basically gone for good, we can make other changes.

ted1 · 24-05-2020 9:50pm

Hubertj wrote: »

I agree on property tax. I don’t understand why it hasn’t been reviewed. I think I should be paying more and am happy to pay more property tax provided it is then used appropriately.

It’s a tax on speculation. Tax should be on price paid , or make it a council tax payable by the occupant as is the case in many other countries

Fritzbox · 24-05-2020 9:51pm

ted1 wrote: »

It’s a tax on speculation. Tax should be on price paid , or make it a council tax payable by the occupant as is the case in many other countries

Many other countries also have property tax.

Besides, property tax in Ireland is not a whole lot is it?

ted1 · 24-05-2020 9:56pm

Fritzbox wrote: »

Many other countries also have property tax.

Besides, property tax in Ireland is not a whole lot is it?

But it’s not a fair tax, someone buys a house and settles in an area, then a tech company appear, and property prices increase. Meanwhile the original house buyer experiences no benefit, can’t afford to replace single glaze windows. Struggles to pay for heating. But is left paying a higher tax because speculative prices has increased.

Fritzbox · 24-05-2020 10:17pm

ted1 wrote: »

But it’s not a fair tax, someone buys a house and settles in an area, then a tech company appear, and property prices increase. Meanwhile the original house buyer experiences no benefit, can’t afford to replace single glaze windows. Struggles to pay for heating. But is left paying a higher tax because speculative prices has increased.

Ultimately a property tax is just another wealth tax - a tax on wealth - which is what all taxes are surely, including income tax and VAT? but like I said the Irish property tax is so small I don't know why anyone would worry about it - after all, your water supply is most likely coming for free.

L1011 · 24-05-2020 10:21pm

ted1 wrote: »

But it’s not a fair tax, someone buys a house and settles in an area, then a tech company appear, and property prices increase. Meanwhile the original house buyer experiences no benefit, can’t afford to replace single glaze windows. Struggles to pay for heating. But is left paying a higher tax because speculative prices has increased.

Deferral - will be paid on death. If there's anyone expecting a big payout they can help the person when they're alive and not be vultures.

Graham · 24-05-2020 10:21pm

ted1 wrote: »

But it’s not a fair tax, someone buys a house and settles in an area, then a tech company appear, and property prices increase. Meanwhile the original house buyer experiences no benefit, can’t afford to replace single glaze windows. Struggles to pay for heating. But is left paying a higher tax because speculative prices has increased.

I've seen that phrase another way ted1.

Those people have seen significant increases in the value of their assets and increased wealth through no effort on their part.

PCeeeee · 24-05-2020 10:22pm

Graham wrote: »

Presumably so you can continue to enjoy the provision of local services.

Would probably make a good topic for another thread

At the moment, a large part of LA revenue is derived from charges levied at construction stage which is pushing up property prices.

Local services ðŸ€£

ted1 · 24-05-2020 10:24pm

Fritzbox wrote: »

Ultimately a property tax is just another wealth tax - a tax on wealth - which is what all taxes are surely, including income tax and VAT? but like I said the Irish property tax is so small I don't know why anyone would worry about it - after all, your water supply is most likely coming for free.

It’s not a tax on wealth. It’s a tax on someone’s home that is based on speculation, which vast amounts have no intention of realising.

Is it was a wealth tax it would consider loans against it , having an 2 million loan in a property valued at 1.8 million doesn’t mean you have wealth.

Graham · 24-05-2020 10:26pm

ted1 wrote: »

It’s not a tax on wealth. It’s a tax on someone’s home that is based on speculation, which vast amounts have no intention of realising.

Is it was a wealth tax it would consider loans against it , having an 2 million loan in a property valued at 1.8 million doesn’t mean you have wealth.

How would that happen in the event of the purely circumstantial price increases you described?

Geuze · 24-05-2020 10:29pm

Mic 1972 wrote: »

The main issue I see with taht is that property tax is paid by people who already bought and own their houses, they have already paid or are paying to be owners. Why do I have to pay tax on something that is mine and that cost me a fortune?

It is well established that property taxes are among the best taxes.

The best version is a SVT.

Many, many countries have property taxes - could all these countries be wrong?

ted1 · 24-05-2020 10:47pm

Graham wrote: »

How would that happen in the event of the purely circumstantial price increases you described?

In was In response to the poster that said it was a wealth tax. Some fool could have over paid in 2006. For the same house( next door) that another paid 2,000 for in 1980. And will be in it till they die.

Graham · 24-05-2020 10:50pm

Would their valuation be reduced for LPT purposes as things stand?

24-05-2020 11:05pm

One of the biggest issues I have with LPT is that size of the jumps from one band to the next. Approximately €100 per band, with the exception of those who bought at the cheapest end of the scale, who go from 90 to 225 euro in one jump. It's a huge leap in the amount paid.

Although I also agree that it's not a fair tax. It provides nothing of worth and the government harp on about the cost of building, when all they build are social housing, that the majority of taxpayers will never see the inside of. I wouldn't mind seeing my LPT be charged if it was going to something of worth. We still have a useless Garda service. My county council (Louth) are so inept that you'd think they were a standalone sitcom, and although I will acknowledge when good work is done by either group (The Gardai or Council) it's so rare that I am genuinely surprised when I hear of either achieving anything of note.

I'd rather not support that system. Be great if you stuck your money in an envelope, and got to tick a box that said what dept. would benefit from it. Be interesting to see where your money would go.

Hubertj · 25-05-2020 11:07am

ted1 wrote: »

It’s a tax on speculation. Tax should be on price paid , or make it a council tax payable by the occupant as is the case in many other countries

interesting concept. I never thought of it like that.

Geuze · 25-05-2020 11:43am

Deleted User wrote: »

One of the biggest issues I have with LPT is that size of the jumps from one band to the next. Approximately €100 per band, with the exception of those who bought at the cheapest end of the scale, who go from 90 to 225 euro in one jump. It's a huge leap in the amount paid.

Although I also agree that it's not a fair tax. It provides nothing of worth and the government harp on about the cost of building, when all they build are social housing, that the majority of taxpayers will never see the inside of. I wouldn't mind seeing my LPT be charged if it was going to something of worth. We still have a useless Garda service. My county council (Louth) are so inept that you'd think they were a standalone sitcom, and although I will acknowledge when good work is done by either group (The Gardai or Council) it's so rare that I am genuinely surprised when I hear of either achieving anything of note.

I'd rather not support that system. Be great if you stuck your money in an envelope, and got to tick a box that said what dept. would benefit from it. Be interesting to see where your money would go.

LPT goes to councils, nothing to do with police.

All councils income and expenditure are published.

Here is Louth:

https://www.louthcoco.ie/en/publications/finance_reports/afs/2018-lcc-annual-financial-statement-unaudited.pdf

awec · 25-05-2020 11:46am

As someone who moved here from NI, I was actually very surprised that there is no such thing as council tax / rates.

25-05-2020 1:45pm

Geuze wrote: »

LPT goes to councils, nothing to do with police

I know. That's exactly the point I was making.

Xterminator · 25-05-2020 2:07pm

Joel Wrong Planet wrote: »

Property tax should never have come in, ridiculous tax.

Of course it should have. your narrow self interest has you blinkered.
Property tax has a place in fair fiscal policy.

All the think tanks, right and left leaning have repeatedly said Ireland needs to broaden its tax base and thats before we consider the social justice aspect. Any fair society needs to tax assets as well as income. Otherwise the rich get richer and the poor get corona'ed.

https://oecdobserver.org/news/fullstory.php/aid/3782/How_tax_can_reduce_inequality.html

https://www.tasc.ie/assets/files/pdf/tasc_towards_an_equality_budget.pdf

You come off across likea trump supporter denying science and fact and dismissing any evidence that doesn't support your conclusions.

Damn those poor people why cant they drag themselves up by their bootlaces eh?

Geuze · 25-05-2020 3:19pm

Joel Wrong Planet wrote: »

Property tax should never have come in, ridiculous tax.

Over and over, decade after decade, country after country, it is well established that property taxes are superior than other taxes.

I would love to have your confidence, that all these countries/analysts/civil servants/tax officials are all wrong, and you are right.

Claw Hammer · 25-05-2020 4:56pm

The reason the tax was brought in was because the tax base was
1. quite narrow with no CGT on PPR, quite high thresholds in CAT and tax yields were cyclical rising and falling over time depending on movement in the economy.
Property tax was seen as a tax which should yield a consistent level of tax from year to year and would ot be vulnerable to economic swings. It was cack-handed the way it was brought in and using market value is ridiculous. the old rateable valuation was far better where every house had its own assessed rateable valuation and thus a person wasn't paying tax based on what their neighbours paid for their houses years later

ted1 · 25-05-2020 8:57pm

Xterminator wrote: »

Of course it should have. your narrow self interest has you blinkered.
Property tax has a place in fair fiscal policy.

All the think tanks, right and left leaning have repeatedly said Ireland needs to broaden its tax base and thats before we consider the social justice aspect. Any fair society needs to tax assets as well as income. Otherwise the rich get richer and the poor get corona'ed.

A house isn’t an assets , it’s a family home and in many cases it’s a liability as there’s outstanding loans on it.

ted1 · 25-05-2020 9:00pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The reason the tax was brought in was because the tax base was
1. quite narrow with no CGT on PPR, quite high thresholds in CAT and tax yields were cyclical rising and falling over time depending on movement in the economy.
Property tax was seen as a tax which should yield a consistent level of tax from year to year and would ot be vulnerable to economic swings. It was cack-handed the way it was brought in and using market value is ridiculous. the old rateable valuation was far better where every house had its own assessed rateable valuation and thus a person wasn't paying tax based on what their neighbours paid for their houses years later

A council tax based on the number of registered occupants and also paid for by occupants shouid have been introduced

fungie · 25-05-2020 9:01pm

ted1 wrote: »

A house isn’t an assets , it’s a family home and in many cases it’s a liability as there’s outstanding loans on it.

A house is most definitively considered an asset.

padser · 25-05-2020 9:12pm

ted1 wrote: »

But it’s not a fair tax, someone buys a house and settles in an area, then a tech company appear, and property prices increase. Meanwhile the original house buyer experiences no benefit, can’t afford to replace single glaze windows. Struggles to pay for heating. But is left paying a higher tax because speculative prices has increased.

Hmmm, I'm not sure you quite understand what "speculative prices" mean

Assuming that you mean "prices that have been driven higher by speculation", then rising prices because a tech company moves into the area (presumably bringing wealthy people who want to live near work) is an example of a price rise most definitely NOT fueled by speculation.

What's happened here is the homeowner just got a pretty big windfall. Their underlying asset just went way up value - few people regard that as a negative.

It's true that if they wouldnt sell, they may have a cashflow issue with something like LPT, but I think most people would jump at a few hundred a year to own something that went up in value by tens of thousands.........

ted1 · 25-05-2020 9:15pm

fungie wrote: »

A house is most definitively considered an asset.

So you have a house , you all if for 400,000 but you need to repay a mortgage if possibly more 400k you are down money or after ten years the price stays the sane but you’ve paid over 50 k , so you now have 50k left.

Tell me what happened the other 350k from my @ Asset”

Are assets not normally accounted for at the lower of cost Or Net Realisable value ,

Geuze · 25-05-2020 9:41pm

ted1 wrote: »

A house isn’t an assets , it’s a family home and in many cases it’s a liability as there’s outstanding loans on it.

All houses are assets, and as such are part of wealth.

Their values are included in the national wealth data.

Mortgages are financial liabilities.

Net wealth is calculated by deducting liabilities from gross wealth.

Geuze · 25-05-2020 9:47pm

ted1 wrote: »

So you have a house , you all if for 400,000 but you need to repay a mortgage if possibly more 400k you are down money or after ten years the price stays the sane but you’ve paid over 50 k , so you now have 50k left.

Tell me what happened the other 350k from my @ Asset”

Are assets not normally accounted for at the lower of cost Or Net Realisable value ,

The language in the first sentence is confused.

If you buy a house for 400k, and borrow 350k, then:

gross wealth = 400k
net wealth = 50k

ted1 · 25-05-2020 10:14pm

Geuze wrote: »

The language in the first sentence is confused.

If you buy a house for 400k, and borrow 350k, then:

gross wealth = 400k
net wealth = 50k

Why the f@@€; would you pay a tax on gross wealth. What other taxes are based on gross wealth.

Who uses the term Gross wealth. Doesn’t show up in google searches

And are Assets not generally the lower of purchase price or realisable value. ?

Social responsibility, buy a house within your means , ok I will

Some other fools pay Inflated prices , drives house up. You are now left paying taxes on a property that is outside your means, farcical

Geuze · 25-05-2020 11:12pm

The term gross wealth is used by the CSO and the Central Bank.

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22,000 homeowners avoid property tax for yet another year

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