Reddit/Gamestop vs.Wall Street

28-01-2021 4:02pm

Gatling wrote: »

Has anyone actually made real world money on this or is just a case of sticking it to the hedge funds

One guy invested 50k back in 2019. By the beginning of the month, he'd upped it to about 1.5 million. By Friday that became 3 million and on Monday it was up to $23,000,000.

A big part of this is those shorting the stock doubled down and shorted it again. As this is what they've been doing for decades. This attracted more attention, and meant that there was a promise of a bigger payday further down the line, so more people bought in and the price skyrocketed.

Elon Musk has a particular disdain for these cnuts. They pulled a similar stunt on Tesla a while ago, and nearly drove the company out of business. He caught wind of this madness last week and tweeted about it. That tweet alone caused a $50 jump in the price. I'd say he's delighted.

https://imgur.com/gallery/DCCpuZA a quick breakdown for anyone still not sure of the ins/outs of the whole thing.

It is absolutely farcical that these big guys, who've been playing this game for decades and using these tactics to line their pockets are normally the first to cry about intervention in the market. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, they are crying out for something to protect them from going bust.

I've seen people crowing about how this is damaging peoples' retirements etc. There are strict rules about how much of a 401k can be invested in any one fund at a given time. It will impact to a certain degree, but people aren't gonna end up with no pension because of this (or at least they shouldn't, if the fund was playing ball_

28-01-2021 4:03pm

joseywhales wrote: »

In a proper functioning market, driven by fundamentals, market participants using their research capabilities, produce an ever more efficient market. The result is that capital flows toward good stock, which is a good thing. It provides financing to help well run business expand and take on new opportunities. Making society more productive and providing industry and jobs. However in this market where fundamentals mean nothing anymore, I agree with you. This bubble will burst like all others before it.

The only way for a company to benefit from high stock levels is to issue more stock. Which reduces the stock price and angers shareholders. In fact companies are more likely to buy more stock, which just reduces their liquidity. And in fact stock buybacks used to be illegal.

28-01-2021 4:06pm

The people at the SEC are going to have a nightmare dealing with this. CNBC and Melvin Capital are going to be targetted in investigations for sure.

Andrew Ross Sorkin of CNBC yesterday claimed on air that he received a phone call from Gabriel Plotkin who runs Melvin Capital, the hedge fund with the biggest holding of shorts for Gamestop (GME), saying he has sold out of GME and taken a huge loss. It's been pointed out that this is impossible because the open short position is still too big to have had the biggest holder of that position sell. So either Melvin Capital handed the position over to another investment firm (which is extremely unlikely as no other hedge fund would touch it) or Plotkin called Sorkin at CNBC and lied about being out of GME to spook the retail investors into selling and taking their profits while they could get them so MC could recover some at a cheaper rate.

I don't know which is more likely. A hedge fund with close ties to a financial channel lying to benefit from misinformation or another hedge fund taking on a massive loss for no reason. All I know is that the first one is market manipulation and highly illegal and the second is basically impossible. Even Sorkin sounded nervous saying it live on air, noticeably shaky in his voice, because he knows questions are going to be asked by the SEC about this call he claims to have had with Plotkin. Either way Melvin Capital can't have closed out their position when Plotkin said they did because the shares were still being hoarded by the WSB crowd en masse. Definitely some shady stuff going on at MC and CNBC.

28-01-2021 4:11pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Populist nonsense. Hedge funds have an important role to play in price discovery. They were correctly shorting an overvalued stock here, and will be proved right in the end. This is just a price spike and many retail investors will get burned out of this.

The shorts were 139%. That's called naked shorting and is very much illegal. If you think they were "correctly shorting overvalued stock" then you are extremely naive. I'll leave this here for you.

- Naked shorting is the illegal practice of short selling shares that have not been affirmatively determined to exist. Ordinarily, traders must borrow a stock, or determine that it can be borrowed, before they sell it short.

They got caught with their pants down from greed and paid the price. No sympathy for them whatsoever. The SEC won't have any either once the smoke starts to clear. I guarantee some of those shorts on their books are not even accounted for.

timmyntc · 28-01-2021 4:13pm

Shorting stocks serves no purpose other than to enrich stock speculators, the world would be a lot better off if it were banned

argolis · 28-01-2021 4:14pm

How can there be more shares shorted than are available?

1. Michael borrows 1 share from Jim
2. Michael sells the 1 share to Pam
3. Toby borrows the 1 share from Pam
4. Toby sells the 1 share to Ryan

There's only 1 share held by Ryan, but Toby and Michael both now have a legal obligation to buy 1 share and give them back to Pam and Jim respectively. So the share is 200% shorted.

In reality only 1 share exists so more are owed than actually exist. If Ryan realises that fact, then he can jack up the price on Toby and Michael who are now screwed because they have no choice but to buy at whatever price Ryan demands. That's the "short squeeze".

In the Gamestop situation, Citron and Melvin can't wait it out very long. They'll have to keep posting more and more money as collateral against their potential losses AND they're paying daily interest on the loaned shares, based on the current share price. Now the share price has sky rocketed, so are their premiums. They're hemorrhaging money to keep the shorts going and trying to wait it out.

They put out a fake story that they had closed out their shorts hoping that would cause the share price to fall (so they could buy the shares back cheaper) but it was shown to be total BS because there are tools available that show exactly how many shorts are still active.

simongurnick · 28-01-2021 4:17pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The shorts were 139%. That's called naked shorting and is very much illegal. If you think they were "correctly shorting overvalued stock" then you are extremely naive. I'll leave this here for you.

- Naked shorting is the illegal practice of short selling shares that have not been affirmatively determined to exist. Ordinarily, traders must borrow a stock, or determine that it can be borrowed, before they sell it short.

They got caught with their pants down from greed and paid the price. No sympathy for them whatsoever. The SEC won't have any either once the smoke starts to clear. I guarantee some of those shorts on their books are not even accounted for.

Snakes.
For shares to be sold short, the actual shares are borrowed from other customers margin accounts. It's part of the margin agreement. So in reality the amount of short shares outstanding should never even be close to 100% because not all long shares are held in margin accounts.

conorhal · 28-01-2021 4:21pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I think people realise that they are going to lose money. This isn't normal investing. They are paying to get at the hedge funds.

Pretty much, pay attention 'Occupy Wallstreet' hippies! That's how you protest the system.

Clearly nothing was learned from the casino banking crash of '08, so the vox populi are now using the banks own rod to deliver a lesson on fairness, and it seems the banks think it's unfair, because massive redistributions of wealth are only supposed to flow one way apparently.

What this larp really tells me is that our financial systems are utterly borked if a bunch or Redditor's can crash it into the ground for a laugh.

James Brown · 28-01-2021 4:21pm

Saw this and thought it was great. No issues with the idea of investments funds but they have zero social conscience and make things like housing worse. Nice to see someone sticking it to them however it will be short lived.

joseywhales · 28-01-2021 4:24pm

It's no big deal, the big problem is the overvalued stock market.

Overheal · 28-01-2021 4:28pm

I feel like I will end up joining a class action against Robinhood for manipulating my stock position.

joseywhales · 28-01-2021 4:34pm

People getting one over on "boomer investing", they don't take these exposed positions, its all about risk aversion for them(pension funds)

ballyharpat · 28-01-2021 4:59pm

from what I can see, it's two sides of the same coin. There is someone behind this, and no, it's not the little guy, a few guys may make money-some a lot, but there is an already big guy that is gonna make a lot. Like a few others have said, the market is way overvalued. I see the likes of LAC Beyond Beef, Tesla etc along with the crypto bubble, it's all gonna collapse, the same way oil did last year, the ~Saudis eventually got the USA in the position that cost them hundreds of billions, and guys -me included-were not protected against negative oil prices, hedge funds shut down, guys like me lost a lot of money, saudis and a some small timers made massive money, but it was market manipulation, yes, just like hedge funds can and do, on a regular basis.
From what I can see, the last 4-5 years have been very hard to make sense of in most of the stck market, and covid was the 'Black swan' that brought it all to the fore.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/gamestop-reditt-fiasco-shows-social-115207456.html

ShaneU · 28-01-2021 5:15pm

Price finally seems to be dropping now.

growleaves · 28-01-2021 5:15pm

ballyharpat wrote: »

from what I can see, it's two sides of the same coin. There is someone behind this, and no, it's not the little guy, a few guys may make money-some a lot, but there is an already big guy that is gonna make a lot. Like a few others have said, the market is way overvalued. I see the likes of LAC Beyond Beef, Tesla etc along with the crypto bubble, it's all gonna collapse, the same way oil did last year, the ~Saudis eventually got the USA in the position that cost them hundreds of billions, and guys -me included-were not protected against negative oil prices, hedge funds shut down, guys like me lost a lot of money, saudis and a some small timers made massive money, but it was market manipulation, yes, just like hedge funds can and do, on a regular basis.
From what I can see, the last 4-5 years have been very hard to make sense of in most of the stck market, and covid was the 'Black swan' that brought it all to the fore.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/gamestop-reditt-fiasco-shows-social-115207456.html

It is not difficult to make sense of, asset bubbles are being inflated with QE. Stocks and bonds are hoovered up and placed on the Fed's balance sheet.

rossie1977 · 28-01-2021 5:26pm

ShaneU wrote: »

Price finally seems to be dropping now.

Stock down $214 today wow

Normal One · 28-01-2021 5:27pm

This is all desperately sad. Is there any way that hard- working taxpayers could bail out the hedge fund lads?

Kivaro · 28-01-2021 5:35pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The people at the SEC are going to have a nightmare dealing with this. CNBC and Melvin Capital are going to be targetted in investigations for sure.

Andrew Ross Sorkin of CNBC yesterday claimed on air that he received a phone call from Gabriel Plotkin who runs Melvin Capital, the hedge fund with the biggest holding of shorts for Gamestop (GME), saying he has sold out of GME and taken a huge loss. It's been pointed out that this is impossible because the open short position is still too big to have had the biggest holder of that position sell. So either Melvin Capital handed the position over to another investment firm (which is extremely unlikely as no other hedge fund would touch it) or Plotkin called Sorkin at CNBC and lied about being out of GME to spook the retail investors into selling and taking their profits while they could get them so MC could recover some at a cheaper rate.

I don't know which is more likely. A hedge fund with close ties to a financial channel lying to benefit from misinformation or another hedge fund taking on a massive loss for no reason. All I know is that the first one is market manipulation and highly illegal and the second is basically impossible. Even Sorkin sounded nervous saying it live on air, noticeably shaky in his voice, because he knows questions are going to be asked by the SEC about this call he claims to have had with Plotkin. Either way Melvin Capital can't have closed out their position when Plotkin said they did because the shares were still being hoarded by the WSB crowd en masse. Definitely some shady stuff going on at MC and CNBC.

The Winklevoss twins are ripping into CNBC live now on the "little guy" versus "the institution" ........... on CNBC.

TheValeyard · 28-01-2021 5:39pm

Why is the Robinhood app not available in Ireland?

Overheal · 28-01-2021 5:43pm

TheValeyard wrote: »

Why is the Robinhood app not available in Ireland?

You need to link a US banking account, its for US investment.

https://twitter.com/Slasher/status/1354803580713111553?s=20

Apple's App Store doesn't show any review bombing, I suppose they've frozen the option.

Kivaro · 28-01-2021 5:48pm

TheValeyard wrote: »

Why is the Robinhood app not available in Ireland?

Gamestop shares just plunged 60% after the ban of trading their stock on the Robinhood app.
Interesting times indeed.

thecretinhop · 28-01-2021 6:02pm

mad stuff. I'm loving it. there seems to be a common bond on all boards people here crazy to see.

Muahahaha · 28-01-2021 6:06pm

timmyntc wrote: »

Shorting stocks serves no purpose other than to enrich stock speculators, the world would be a lot better off if it were banned

It would definitely seem that way. The hedge funds ultimately want to see Gamestop fail so they can make colossal profits on their bets. They get mega wealthy off short selling but the flip side of that is genuine entrepreneurial activity is stifled, people lose their jobs, they default on loans, mortgages and ultimately society at large ends up picking up the pieces. All so the hedge fund manager can enjoy his house in Hamptons and pay his $100k a year golf club fees. They dont create anything of value, they only destroy.

Overheal · 28-01-2021 6:06pm

Overheal wrote: »

I feel like I will end up joining a class action against Robinhood for manipulating my stock position.

https://twitter.com/LegalEagleDJ/status/1354822601110036481?s=20

Will look forward to his video on this. He's an upright guy. Congress is taking an interest:

https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1354833285386543105?s=20

Infini · 28-01-2021 6:09pm

It's actually funny because it's showing up the double standards of the whole thing, not only could it end up with those hedge fund investors losing money but now they could potentially be getting sued for actual market manipulation after crying of market manipulation. The whole thing is fúcking genius and hilarious at the same time.

hatrickpatrick · 28-01-2021 6:12pm

The bedrock of the economy shouldn't be based on a f*cking casino, and if this exposes the lies and bullsh!t underpinning the entire current financial system, it'll have been worth it.

It always astounds me how few people understand how money works, where it comes from, or exactly what is controlling peoples' actual lives. This exposes just one small part of it, but it's a very big deal for how mainstream it's forced the whole issue to become.

thecretinhop · 28-01-2021 6:14pm

this is like de tv version of silicon Valley. I see guilfoyle behind it lol

c.p.w.g.w · 28-01-2021 6:17pm

How is shorting even legal

10000maniacs · 28-01-2021 6:19pm

That's a quick way to remove GameStop from the US high street one the debris has settled.

AbusesToilets · 28-01-2021 6:20pm

This is what the guillotine was invented for. I'm genuinely astonished that there hasn't been a revolution in the US, not the Trump nonsense, but a real Death to the parasites type.

Overheal · 28-01-2021 6:20pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

How is shorting even legal

28-01-2021 6:23pm

What will the fallout be for the gamestop business? It has to be in bad shape.

Selling games in an era of downloads, its like being in the horseshoe business when everybody is buying cars.

The very first business I noticed going bust during the lockdown a few months ago was a small independent game shop in the local shopping centre.

Scuid Mhór · 28-01-2021 6:24pm

So much for democratising finance. Anyone who was burned by the reckless behaviour of Wall Street hedge funds back in 2008 should be hoping WSB comes out on top here. This is outrageous.

c.p.w.g.w · 28-01-2021 6:24pm

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

What will the fallout be for the gamestop business? It has to be in bad shape.

Selling games in an era of downloads, its like being in the horseshoe business when everybody is buying cars.

The very first business I noticed going bust during the lockdown a few months ago was a small independent game shop in the local shopping centre.

Diversify into board games and collectables, but with Amazon it's near impossible to compete

hatrickpatrick · 28-01-2021 6:26pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

How is shorting even legal

Because the entire financial system is built on a pillar of sand, it relies upon too few people understanding it or taking a close look at how it works, in order to maintain its absurdly undue power and influence.

In short (pun intended) if you started actually regulating these things, vast amounts of supposed 'wealth' would disappear and people would start to realise that the whole thing is bullsh!t. Those in power are on the winning side of the equation so they have a vested interest in maintaining the illusion.

My dad once explained modern economics to me as "money is a game of musical chairs in which there are never enough chairs for everyone playing, and the system relies upon the music never stopping so that nobody ever notices the lack of chairs".

Everything connected to this issue should expose just how f*cked up it all is. For example, so many people suggesting that we shouldn't be celebrating the troubles of Melvin Capital because that's peoples' retirement money that's getting nuked. Which means that many peoples' retirement depends entirely on illusionary, exploitative market manipulation - and worse, depends on others going bust and losing their own wealth.

What began a couple of centuries ago as a simple way for companies to raise money to invest in their business before they became profitable has evolved into something which somehow controls so many aspects of our everyday lives - how much money we have, how much that money is worth, which businesses live or die, therefore what we can buy, what services we can access, even how much money is available for governments to spend on vital services, etc etc etc = and somehow until quite recently, nobody has ever truly stopped to question the absolute lunacy of this and whether we as a society should be attempting to change it.

Incidents like this, which along with bigger incidents such as the 2008 crash, help to pull back the curtain and give people a glance at the ordinary man behind it pretending to be the Great and Powerful Wizard. The more people realise this, the more unsustainable that system will become. With a bit of luck, at some point the entire thing will collapse in on itself and this time, it will be allowed to die just like it should have been last time.

It's a bit like when people start attacking the concept of affordable housing on the grounds that high rents are needed to fund peoples' retirement. What they actually saying without saying it is that it's fine for one generation to be bled dry in order to fund anothers' lifestyle. But as long as nobody looks too closely or understands all of the different moving parts at the same time, nobody ever talks about overhauling the entire basis of how the system functions, just swapping out decorative elements at the surface.

joe40 · 28-01-2021 6:30pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Because the entire financial system is built on a pillar of sand, it relies upon too few people understanding it or taking a close look at how it works, in order to maintain its absurdly undue power and influence.

In short (pun intended) if you started actually regulating these things, vast amounts of supposed 'wealth' would disappear and people would start to realise that the whole thing is bullsh!t. Those in power are on the winning side of the equation so they have a vested interest in maintaining the illusion.

My dad once explained modern economics to me as "money is a game of musical chairs in which there are never enough chairs for everyone playing, and the system relies upon the music never stopping so that nobody ever notices the lack of chairs".

Everything connected to this issue should expose just how f*cked up it all is. For example, so many people suggesting that we shouldn't be celebrating the troubles of Melvin Capital because that's peoples' retirement money that's getting nuked. Which means that many peoples' retirement depends entirely on illusionary, exploitative market manipulation - and worse, depends on others going bust and losing their own wealth.

What began a couple of centuries ago as a simple way for companies to raise money to invest in their business before they became profitable has evolved into something which somehow controls so many aspects of our everyday lives - how much money we have, how much that money is worth, which businesses live or die, therefore what we can buy, what services we can access, even how much money is available for governments to spend on vital services, etc etc etc = and somehow until quite recently, nobody has ever truly stopped to question the absolute lunacy of this and whether we as a society should be attempting to change it.

Incidents like this, which along with bigger incidents such as the 2008 crash, help to pull back the curtain and give people a glance at the ordinary man behind it pretending to be the Great and Powerful Wizard. The more people realise this, the more unsustainable that system will become. With a bit of luck, at some point the entire thing will collapse in on itself and this time, it will be allowed to die just like it should have been last time.

It's a bit like when people start attacking the concept of affordable housing on the grounds that high rents are needed to fund peoples' retirement. What they actually saying without saying it is that it's fine for one generation to be bled dry in order to fund anothers' lifestyle. But as long as nobody looks too closely or understands all of the different moving parts at the same time, nobody ever talks about overhauling the entire basis of how the system functions, just swapping out decorative elements at the surface.

What you have just described sounds like a giant global pyramid scheme.

Is that a true assessment of global financial markets.

Overheal · 28-01-2021 6:32pm

https://twitter.com/TheDailyShow/status/1354624259167936513?s=20

Speaker Pelosi has also indicated the restrictions in trading will be under Congressional review.

28-01-2021 6:33pm

joe40 wrote: »

What you have just described sounds like a giant global pyramid scheme.

Is that a true assessment of global financial markets.

It would seem so.....if people can sell/bet 140% of the amount of shares in a company,i wouldnt want my pension/future relying on it.....

this cant last forever....its as much lunacy as the 120% mortgages

(I could be completly off kilter,if im wrong,il be glad to be corrected!)

AbusesToilets · 28-01-2021 6:35pm

joe40 wrote: »

What you have just described sounds like a giant global pyramid scheme.

Is that a true assessment of global financial markets.

You also have the false economy, built on the undervaluing of labor. As reflected in lower prices for goods produced in China vs USA. When people say a higher minimum wage will negatively impact business, they're really saying they can't survive without exploiting their workers.

**** em all

hatrickpatrick · 28-01-2021 6:38pm

joe40 wrote: »

What you have just described sounds like a giant global pyramid scheme.

Is that a true assessment of global financial markets.

It's very simplified, but that's essentially it, yes.

I'd highly recommend watching the film, or reading the book, The Big Short. It describes how this mechanism led to the 2008 financial crisis and opens with a quote explaining how the crash was caused when some investors "decided to to something nobody else had thought of - they started looking". In other words, the entire investment economy at the time depended on nobody actually checking to see where the so called future revenue that current value was based on, would come from. When a group of investors did, and realised it was a bunch of mortgage holders with no chance of ever paying it back, they decided to get the hell out of their investments and collapsed two hedge funds owned by a large bank named Bear Stearns - and this started a chain reaction of panic which caused the whole system to come to the brink of total failure.

To give you an analogy, the current financial system is based on the cartoon concept that Koyote never falls after he runs off a cliff - as long as he doesn't look down. Once anyone with any influence looks down and points out that the whole thing is a house of cards - and people start treating it like one - that's when you have a major financial collapse.

hatrickpatrick · 28-01-2021 6:40pm

To simplify a little more, it could well be argued that the crash in 2008 would never have happened if the main players involved had just continued swapping IOUs indefinitely as opposed to anyone actually bothering to call theirs in. The whole system as it exists today is a ponzi scheme, and yet for some reason, we allow it to control everything from our day to day grocery shopping to government budgets. It's insane.

28-01-2021 6:42pm

It was funny, but a lot of people will probably lose a bit on it too..

Be interesting if it started a movement towards this sort of thing..

Colonel Claptrap · 28-01-2021 6:44pm

Posters creaming themselves over retribution for '08 and Anglo. "Major financial collapse".

The number of funds affected by this is minuscule. Wall Street is not on it's knees.
A couple of traders are.

What's the exit strategy for WSB?

hatrickpatrick · 28-01-2021 6:50pm

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Posters creaming themselves over retribution for '08 and Anglo. "Major financial collapse".

The number of funds affected by this is minuscule. Wall Street is not on it's knees.
A couple of traders are.

Melvin had to be bailed out. They were the target of this. Mission accomplished frm WSB's point of view as far as I can see.

What's the exit strategy for WSB?

That's the thing, there isn't one. If you read through the comments, most people are putting money in without expecting to get it back, for the privilege of hopefully watching some big Wall St players get burned. That's it. There's no objective beyond that for the majority of Redditors anyway.

raclle · 28-01-2021 6:52pm

I've no idea what's going on but was reading the thread on reddit. Some guy is down tens of thousands but is being told to buy and hold on whatever that means

hatrickpatrick · 28-01-2021 6:56pm

raclle wrote: »

I've no idea what's going on but was reading the thread on reddit. Some guy is down tens of thousands but is being told to buy and hold on whatever that means

Buy means buy the stock while it's experiencing a dip, in the hopes that it'll go up again subsequently. Hold means keep it and don't panic-sell it because the price is going down - in this case, the tech firms are essentially forcing the trade to be one-way by banning people from buying the shares but leaving everyone free to sell them. WSB is attempting to co-ordinate a rebellion against this tactic by trying to convince the people currently involved to "hold the line" - that is, don't give in to the pressure and keep refusing to sell until the shenanigans stop.

28-01-2021 7:02pm

Is that the 'We can stay retarded longer than they can stay solvent'..

It's absolutely classic comedy in fairness..

Kermit.de.frog · 28-01-2021 7:05pm

https://twitter.com/stoolpresidente/status/1354848771184750598

Overheal · 28-01-2021 7:05pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

That's the thing, there isn't one. If you read through the comments, most people are putting money in without expecting to get it back, for the privilege of hopefully watching some big Wall St players get burned. That's it. There's no objective beyond that for the majority of Redditors anyway.

hatrickpatrick · 28-01-2021 7:06pm

@Overheal Exactly! I've even seen this one posted all over Reddit today in response to laughing cries of "you're all going to lose whatever you put into this":

Reddit/Gamestop vs.Wall Street

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