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Land Sold Subject to Planning Permission

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  • 16-07-2019 7:21pm
    #1
    Deiseen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭


    So I am currently looking at some land that is sold subject to planning permission.

    I understand that if I fail to get PP for the land then I do not have to pay for the land.

    Just wondering if there is a general procedure for this or whether it varies widely from seller/agent.

    Is there usually a time-frame that I have to seek planning permission for? Is the land usually initially paid for and then refunded or is it usually in the form of a refundable deposit?

    If the land is just outside the urban area of Waterford City then is it likely to get PP? Obviously I have a connection to the area as I am from there and given the current housing shortage then I imagine this would be relatively straightforward assuming the plans are reasonable?

    Finally does anyone have suggestion of respectable architects that have ready to go plans that I can liaise with?

    Any help on any of the questions would be much appreciated.


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    #2
    JoeA3
    Registered Users Posts: 7,414 ✭✭✭JoeA3


    Went through this in the last year myself, albeit in a different county.

    - Site was for sale "Subject to planning permission"
    - the site had a local needs clause attached - i.e. in order to have any hope of getting planning granted I had to prove a local need
    - I paid the estate agent a small (about 3K I think) booking deposit in August
    - signed a contract of sale in October and paid a further ~5k.
    - contract stipulated that my total deposit would be refundable if I failed to get planning. A deadline of ~9 months from that date was given to me to get planning
    - I got planning granted in April and closed the sale of the site a couple of weeks later.


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    #3
    Deiseen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    JoeA3 wrote: »
    Went through this in the last year myself, albeit in a different county.

    - Site was for sale "Subject to planning permission"
    - the site had a local needs clause attached - i.e. in order to have any hope of getting planning granted I had to prove a local need
    - I paid the estate agent a small (about 3K I think) booking deposit in August
    - signed a contract of sale in October and paid a further ~5k.
    - contract stipulated that my total deposit would be refundable if I failed to get planning. A deadline of ~9 months from that date was given to me to get planning
    - I got planning granted in April and closed the sale of the site a couple of weeks later.

    Wow. Thanks for the response!

    Did you find the 9 months time-frame tight to get plans together and then also gain planning permission?


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    #4
    JoeA3
    Registered Users Posts: 7,414 ✭✭✭JoeA3


    Deiseen wrote: »
    Wow. Thanks for the response!

    Did you find the 9 months time-frame tight to get plans together and then also gain planning permission?

    It was just about enough time to be honest!

    We hit a snag where we were unhappy with the first architect we had, so a few weeks after we signed that site contract, we had to switch engineers/architects and we were back to square one in terms of design and the application process.

    We submitted the application around mid December. We got a "Further Information" request in mid February and fortunately it was straightforward and our arch had a reply ready to go back within a day. We got the initial grant 4 weeks later and then the final "good to go" grant (C3) in mid April.

    So we were OK (just about) with the 9 months. I was concerned but both my architect and solicitor reassured me that a few weeks (or even a month or two) wouldn't be a huge problem, the site seller was unlikely to be too harsh on the deadline so long as I could show I was doing my best to get it over the line.


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    #5
    Deiseen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    JoeA3 wrote: »
    It was just about enough time to be honest!

    We hit a snag where we were unhappy with the first architect we had, so a few weeks after we signed that site contract, we had to switch engineers/architects and we were back to square one in terms of design and the application process.

    We submitted the application around mid December. We got a "Further Information" request in mid February and fortunately it was straightforward and our arch had a reply ready to go back within a day. We got the initial grant 4 weeks later and then the final "good to go" grant (C3) in mid April.

    So we were OK (just about) with the 9 months. I was concerned but both my architect and solicitor reassured me that a few weeks (or even a month or two) wouldn't be a huge problem, the site seller was unlikely to be too harsh on the deadline so long as I could show I was doing my best to get it over the line.

    Could you give me an idea of how much it cost to get you to the point of approval? Realistically that would be the only financial risk, provided we got a decision on the planning permission in time!

    Also, did you have a stonewall housing need in the area? This piece of land is just outside Waterford City kind of located between the city, a village, a town and another large town so it's not exactly the middle of nowhere. I also have family in the city but not necessarily in this area. This is one potential snag but I've emailed the council to see if it fits within the development plan and the next stage would be to arrange a pre-planning meeting.


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    #6
    JoeA3
    Registered Users Posts: 7,414 ✭✭✭JoeA3


    Deiseen wrote: »
    Could you give me an idea of how much it cost to get you to the point of approval? Realistically that would be the only financial risk, provided we got a decision on the planning permission in time!

    Also, did you have a stonewall housing need in the area? This piece of land is just outside Waterford City kind of located between the city, a village, a town and another large town so it's not exactly the middle of nowhere. I also have family in the city but not necessarily in this area. This is one potential snag but I've emailed the council to see if it fits within the development plan and the next stage would be to arrange a pre-planning meeting.


    Your cost to get to planning approved is your architect / engineer and some legal costs. For me that was approx €4k for arch/eng plus around €1k for solicitor. Obviously these costs (particularly architect) can vary wildly depending on who you go with.

    If you get to the point where you close the sale, you'll have to pay 6% stamp duty on the site cost too... I wasn't expecting that, but 4% is refundable when you start construction.

    Housing "need" is a very misleading term. Technically I didn't have a need, I could live / buy someplace else. In my county, the 3 most important documents I had to provide were:
    - Land folio of my parents home (the house in which I grew up and where they still live)
    - the site map, showing the proximity of the site to my parents home
    - my birth cert.

    Those 3 docs showed I had a long established intrinsic link to the area. Other supporting docs such as letters from schools attended, local clubs, etc will help also.

    If you get planning and you close the site purchase, great - but that's just the beginning. Costs really start to escalate then :(


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    #7
    Deiseen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    JoeA3 wrote: »
    Your cost to get to planning approved is your architect / engineer and some legal costs. For me that was approx €4k for arch/eng plus around €1k for solicitor. Obviously these costs (particularly architect) can vary wildly depending on who you go with.

    If you get to the point where you close the sale, you'll have to pay 6% stamp duty on the site cost too... I wasn't expecting that, but 4% is refundable when you start construction.

    Housing "need" is a very misleading term. Technically I didn't have a need, I could live / buy someplace else. In my county, the 3 most important documents I had to provide were:
    - Land folio of my parents home (the house in which I grew up and where they still live)
    - the site map, showing the proximity of the site to my parents home
    - my birth cert.

    Those 3 docs showed I had a long established intrinsic link to the area. Other supporting docs such as letters from schools attended, local clubs, etc will help also.

    If you get planning and you close the site purchase, great - but that's just the beginning. Costs really start to escalate then :(

    This is all great information. Thanks so much!

    One last thing. Could you tell me how close you are to your parents so I have an idea of what was acceptable in your case. Would location of siblings also help?


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    #8
    JoeA3
    Registered Users Posts: 7,414 ✭✭✭JoeA3


    In my case - very close. Less than 100 metres away.

    But I believe that a distance of around 5 miles (7-8k) is acceptable, at least in my neck of the woods.

    I would strongly advise engaging with a local engineer/architect who knows the lay of the land in your area very well and is familiar with the quirks that might be unique to your local planning authority. This will save you a lot of time/money/hassle in the long run. And be careful about architects who run away with themselves in terms of the design. It might look wonderful on paper, but will it get by the planners? And you'll have to pay handsomely to build it!


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    #9
    Deiseen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    JoeA3 wrote: »
    In my case - very close. Less than 100 metres away.

    But I believe that a distance of around 5 miles (7-8k) is acceptable, at least in my neck of the woods.

    I would strongly advise engaging with a local engineer/architect who knows the lay of the land in your area very well and is familiar with the quirks that might be unique to your local planning authority. This will save you a lot of time/money/hassle in the long run.

    Yeah thats the next stage, I would have been going in fairly blind if it wasn't for you, so thank you very much.

    If youe house is all done then I hope it worked out nicely for you and if its not finished yet then I wish you all the best!!


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    #10
    JoeA3
    Registered Users Posts: 7,414 ✭✭✭JoeA3


    Deiseen wrote: »
    If youe house is all done then I hope it worked out nicely for you and if its not finished yet then I wish you all the best!!

    We broke ground last week - foundations should be poured in the coming days!

    So that might give you an idea of timelines... we were in the same position as you exactly a year ago. So it's taken one year to go from thinking about buying this site to seeing a digger move in. And probably the guts of another year before we will move in...

    Be warned - it is an exceptionally costly process.


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    #11
    Deiseen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    JoeA3 wrote: »
    We broke ground last week - foundations should be poured in the coming days!

    So that might give you an idea of timelines... we were in the same position as you exactly a year ago. So it's taken one year to go from thinking about buying this site to seeing a digger move in. And probably the guts of another year before we will move in...

    Be warned - it is an exceptionally costly process.

    Have you had any major issues along the way?

    What's the final cost expected to be (without price of land) and what kind of house have you gone for?

    All of this will give us a good idea of what we might be in for.


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    #12
    JoeA3
    Registered Users Posts: 7,414 ✭✭✭JoeA3


    No major issues yet as such, touch wood. Probably our most stressful period were the weeks around October where I'd signed the contract for the site but simultaneously fell out with our first architect. Fortunately we found a replacement who has been great both in terms of the design and is generally very efficient at the whole planning logistics side of it (hence my strong recommendation to get a local guy who knows this side of it very well).

    Build costs have escalated massively in the last 2 years. When I started out, I was being told (by "the man in the pub") that 100-120 euro a square foot will finish the house. Beware anyone who tells you this, because its miles away from the reality!

    I'm seeing a cost (for a contractor) at around 150-160 per sq/foot. And this doesn't include lots of extra items that cost $$$ (boundary walls, driveways, landscaping, garage...).

    The house is approx 2200 sq/ft, a contemporary "L" shape, half bungalow, half double-height living space. I can PM you on a few images if you like.


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    #13
    Deiseen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    JoeA3 wrote: »
    No major issues yet as such, touch wood. Probably our most stressful period were the weeks around October where I'd signed the contract for the site but simultaneously fell out with our first architect. Fortunately we found a replacement who has been great both in terms of the design and is generally very efficient at the whole planning logistics side of it (hence my strong recommendation to get a local guy who knows this side of it very well).

    Build costs have escalated massively in the last 2 years. When I started out, I was being told (by "the man in the pub") that 100-120 euro a square foot will finish the house. Beware anyone who tells you this, because its miles away from the reality!

    I'm seeing a cost (for a contractor) at around 150-160 per sq/foot. And this doesn't include lots of extra items that cost $$$ (boundary walls, driveways, landscaping, garage...).

    The house is approx 2200 sq/ft, a contemporary "L" shape, half bungalow, half double-height living space. I can PM you on a few images if you like.

    Thanks again, yeah some images would be great if you can!

    Really good to know about the costs, reduces the chance of a bad shock!


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    #14
    JoeA3
    Registered Users Posts: 7,414 ✭✭✭JoeA3


    Don't forget all the fees too....

    ESB, county council contributions, Irish water...

    (I'm not selling this to you very well, am I :pac:)


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    #15
    db
    Registered Users Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭db


    Before you start down this road be aware that you are entering into a contract to buy the site so if you succeed in getting planning permission you cannot back out. If you have problems financing the build or for any other reason you are unable to proceed you will be down a lot of money.


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