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Biomass imports

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    #2
    Odelay
    Registered Users Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭Odelay


    _Brian wrote: »
    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0713/1061843-bord-na-mona-jobs/

    Imagine the carbon footprint of 10weeks shipping.

    Would there not be a product locally that would do this?

    They need 3000 tons per day. Massive volumes. They are trying to buy every bit of fibre in the country but not enough.


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    #3
    roosterman71
    Registered Users Posts: 5,360 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    _Brian wrote: »
    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0713/1061843-bord-na-mona-jobs/

    Imagine the carbon footprint of 10weeks shipping.

    Would there not be a product locally that would do this?

    Yer looking at it all wrong. They are saving carbon because wood is renewable as opposed to peat. Sure they are single handily saving the country :rolleyes:


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    #4
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,191 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    Hard to understand how it makes sense to ship it from Australia.
    There is land here in Cavan planted in willow thats been basically abandoned because its not economically viable to transport it to a power station 40 miles away.....


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    #5
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    Nekarsulm wrote: »
    Hard to understand how it makes sense to ship it from Australia.
    There is land here in Cavan planted in willow thats been basically abandoned because its not economically viable to transport it to a power station 40 miles away.....

    Exactly. That's how crazy the whole climate change debate has become. It's a bit like asking all those young protestors to give up their laptop and mobile phone to save the planet. Fat chance of that.

    'The Bishops blessed the Blueshirts in Galway, As they sailed beneath the Swastika to Spain'



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    #6
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,475 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Nekarsulm wrote: »
    Hard to understand how it makes sense to ship it from Australia.
    There is land here in Cavan planted in willow thats been basically abandoned because its not economically viable to transport it to a power station 40 miles away.....

    I’ve said before.
    This is happening because emissions from transport were omitted from the pros accord. If there were a carbon tax in shipping of goods then things would change very quickly.


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    #7
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,191 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    _Brian wrote: »
    I’ve said before.
    This is happening because emissions from transport were omitted from the pros accord. If there were a carbon tax in shipping of goods then things would change very quickly.

    Only read somewhere on Friday, that aircraft fuel is NOT included in emmissions calculations.
    If you included Ryan Air and Aer Lingus fuel burn, I'd say you'd nearly have to euthanize half the population .....


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    #8
    148multi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,412 ✭✭✭148multi


    Odelay wrote: »
    They need 3000 tons per day. Massive volumes. They are trying to buy every bit of fibre in the country but not enough.

    There's one small company that's 7 miles from the lough ree Station, its sending 3200 tonnes of wood chip to Derry each week.


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    #9
    foxy farmer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,194 ✭✭✭foxy farmer


    Is there any miscanthus growing now? I draw silage bales off 3 fields that were growing miscanthus for last 10 yrs. No one here can remember it ever being cut once.


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    #10
    Odelay
    Registered Users Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭Odelay


    Still growing in a few places. Nuns near here have it. Usually harvested in spring. Apparently makes great animal bedding.


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    #11
    whelan2
    Registered Users Posts: 29,079 ✭✭✭✭whelan2


    Odelay wrote: »
    Still growing in a few places. Nuns near here have it. Usually harvested in spring. Apparently makes great animal bedding.

    Speaking of bedding the furniture place across the road have about 20 half tonne bags of sawdust. They kept asking me to take them. I don't want them. They have been stored outside and I'd assume there's lumps and everything in it. Wouldn't be any use for bedding cubicles.


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    #12
    Reggie.
    Registered Users Posts: 24,363 ✭✭✭✭Reggie.


    foxy farmer wrote: »
    Is there any miscanthus growing now? I draw silage bales off 3 fields that were growing miscanthus for last 10 yrs. No one here can remember it ever being cut once.

    Still grown in mullingar. Goes for animal bedding


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    #13
    ganmo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    foxy farmer wrote: »
    Is there any miscanthus growing now? I draw silage bales off 3 fields that were growing miscanthus for last 10 yrs. No one here can remember it ever being cut once.

    I read something last year about quinns of baltinglass buying it


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    #14
    Albert Johnson
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 1,870 Mod ✭✭✭✭Albert Johnson


    whelan2 wrote: »
    Odelay wrote: »
    Still growing in a few places. Nuns near here have it. Usually harvested in spring. Apparently makes great animal bedding.

    Speaking of bedding the furniture place across the road have about 20 half tonne bags of sawdust. They kept asking me to take them. I don't want them. They have been stored outside and I'd assume there's lumps and everything in it. Wouldn't be any use for bedding cubicles.

    I've never used sawdust for bedding and assume you'd want a fair quantity of it to make a decent dry lie?. My biggest concern with what you've been offered would be nails, screws and other nasty surprises, I doubt that any of that material is passed through a metal detector or other screening process.


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    #15
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,114 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    And we import biomass from Australia to burn in our power plants. Miscanthus,willow growers, rapeseed oil and ethanol were treated disgracefully by Govn'ts. Now with Climate Action Plan we'll have a new, love in.


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    #16
    Odelay
    Registered Users Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭Odelay


    Reggie. wrote: »
    Still grown in mullingar. Goes for animal bedding


    Gigginstown? They’ll know the value of what goes in and out of a stable.


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    #17
    Reggie.
    Registered Users Posts: 24,363 ✭✭✭✭Reggie.


    Odelay wrote: »
    Gigginstown? They’ll know the value of what goes in and out of a stable.

    No a separate man. The gigginstown stud is closing up shop now


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    #18
    ganmo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    Reggie. wrote: »
    No a separate man. The gigginstown stud is closing up shop now

    Is he keeping the cattle?


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    #19
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,048 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Water John wrote: »
    And we import biomass from Australia to burn in our power plants. Miscanthus,willow growers, rapeseed oil and ethanol were treated disgracefully by Govn'ts. Now with Climate Action Plan we'll have a new, love in.

    Sure we couldn't possibly trust farmers to grow biomass for a semi state company in this country? Those pesky farmers would have us over a barrel in jig time.

    No it's better to import it in a large quantity at an unknown cost to the public and keep it quiet like. Sure we'll have jobs for the port workers, lorry drivers and power station operators and have our green image assured.

    Wait a few years and we won't be dealing with the farmers anyways it'll be intermediaries who'll put the screw down on them when those cattle are gone and we'll deal with the intermediaries.


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    #20
    Reggie.
    Registered Users Posts: 24,363 ✭✭✭✭Reggie.


    ganmo wrote: »
    Is he keeping the cattle?

    Yeah only the cattle and tillage


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    #21
    148multi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,412 ✭✭✭148multi


    foxy farmer wrote: »
    Is there any miscanthus growing now? I draw silage bales off 3 fields that were growing miscanthus for last 10 yrs. No one here can remember it ever being cut once.

    All of it has been replaced with grass or forestry here, as I understand it has a high content of chlorine, apparently the old lough ree power station could have burnt it as the heat burned off all gases, but the new station doesn't burn as hot, as there are particle filters in the chimney. The chlorine would damage the system, I wonder how it would affect grassland when spread as FYM.


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    #22
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    Mod note, I pulled these from chit chat as I thought the topic deserved it's own thread.

    Miscanthus is supposed to sequester carbon in soil too. The roots grow down fairly deep in the soil.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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    #23
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,198 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    If farmers could get €35/bale for biomass grass unwrapped and keep the SFP, would many bother with sucklers?

    Energy crops may prove to be the best way out of a saturated beef market.


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    #24
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,475 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    I think it really shows that allot of people banging a drum against farming because of emissions and climate were actually really just extremist vegan groups taking advantage of a few soundbite reports against Ag.

    True environmentalists would be horrified at wood coming from Australia while beef/chicken is shipped from Brazil. The environmental impact of this mass transit of goods must be massive. Supporting Irish farmers to produce these products is on a much sounder environmental footing.

    This mass transit of goods we already have ye ability to produce should be bringing allot of pressure from true environmentalists on the government to support Irish farming. We need a common sense approach, taking into account emissions from transport, otherwise the whole thing is a total joke.


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    #25
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,198 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    _Brian wrote: »
    I think it really shows that allot of people banging a drum against farming because of emissions and climate were actually really just extremist vegan groups taking advantage of a few soundbite reports against Ag.

    True environmentalists would be horrified at wood coming from Australia while beef/chicken is shipped from Brazil. The environmental impact of this mass transit of goods must be massive. Supporting Irish farmers to produce these products is on a much sounder environmental footing.

    This mass transit of goods we already have ye ability to produce should be bringing allot of pressure from true environmentalists on the government to support Irish farming. We need a common sense approach, taking into account emissions from transport, otherwise the whole thing is a total joke.

    The emission cost of the slow boat from Australia is relatively small though. I'm guessing the most energy intensive party of the trip is the truck transfer from foynes


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    #26
    my3cents
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,764 ✭✭✭my3cents


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    The emission cost of the slow boat from Australia is relatively small though. I'm guessing the most energy intensive party of the trip is the truck transfer from foynes

    But iirc the fuel used by many slow boats is the lowest cheapest grade and as a consequence the most polluting.


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    #27
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    _Brian wrote: »
    I think it really shows that allot of people banging a drum against farming because of emissions and climate were actually really just extremist vegan groups taking advantage of a few soundbite reports against Ag.

    True environmentalists would be horrified at wood coming from Australia while beef/chicken is shipped from Brazil. The environmental impact of this mass transit of goods must be massive. Supporting Irish farmers to produce these products is on a much sounder environmental footing.

    This mass transit of goods we already have ye ability to produce should be bringing allot of pressure from true environmentalists on the government to support Irish farming. We need a common sense approach, taking into account emissions from transport, otherwise the whole thing is a total joke.

    The sad thing is it's probably cheaper and more energy efficient to bring a ton of wood from Australia by ship than it would be for a farmer to transport a load of bales by tractor and trailer 40km to a power plant. AFAIK ships can transport 1 ton/mile for as little as 1c.

    Obviously the closer you get to the power plant the more efficient it is, because of no backload. But 40km seems to be the cutoff point for transporting biomass by road.

    http://www.dartmouth.edu/~cushman/books/Numbers/Chap5-Transportation.pdf

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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    #28
    Odelay
    Registered Users Posts: 3,784 ✭✭✭Odelay


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    The emission cost of the slow boat from Australia is relatively small though. I'm guessing the most energy intensive party of the trip is the truck transfer from foynes

    A cruise ship emits the same emissions as 1 million cars per day. If a cargo ship was half that it’s still a lot. Plus at a travel time of 30-40 days they’d need to have 3 or 4 of them traveling constantly to keep the boiler fed. That’s a lot of emissions to have forgotten about.


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    #29
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,198 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    my3cents wrote: »
    But iirc the fuel used by many slow boats is the lowest cheapest grade and as a consequence the most polluting.

    Most polluting in terms of sulphur (although I think that is being phased out), but not CO2.

    While it might burn what seems to be a phenomenal amount of fuel per journey even if it's very efficient, when the fuel burn in terms of payload delivered is considered, it's very small.

    I agree it would be much better for it to be produced domestically and I think that it could prove to be the desperately required, financially viable, out for a lot of unsustainable suckler farmers.

    At €80/t (based on a 5c/kwh wholesale price of electricity and accounting for power plant being 35% efficient) and 15t dm/ha, 50acre farm could return €24k per year before expenses. If a farmer could keep his SFP on top of this, energy crops would be very competitive vs suckler farming


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    #30
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    Most polluting in terms of sulphur (although I think that is being phased out), but not CO2.

    While it might burn what seems to be a phenomenal amount of fuel per journey even if it's very efficient, when the fuel burn in terms of payload delivered is considered, it's very small.

    I agree it would be much better for it to be produced domestically and I think that it could prove to be the desperately required, financially viable, out for a lot of unsustainable suckler farmers.

    At €80/t (based on a 5c/kwh wholesale price of electricity and accounting for power plant being 35% efficient) and 15t dm/ha, 50acre farm could return €24k per year before expenses. If a farmer could keep his SFP on top of this, energy crops would be very competitive vs suckler farming

    Last time I looked into it forestry is paying better, is tax free, 100% grant aided for planting, and the thinnings can go for biomass.

    Only con is that it is permanent. Farmers that planted miscanthus even had to pay vat on establishment costs.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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    #31
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,927 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    At present the prices being paid for biomass timber will just barely cover harvesting and haulage AFAIK. Europe has loads of timber that can't be brought here due to diseases issues.
    The majority of future forestry plantings here are likely to be burned at break even costs at best.


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