Which conspiracy theories are real and which are not?

The Late Late Show · 10-07-2019 3:58pm #1

We all have come across a lot of wacky and way out conspiracy theories. With the time that's in it, you hear so many 'man was never on the moon' and 'the moon landings were faked in Nevada' stuff doing the rounds. As well as this, there are so many other ones we hear: Elvis is alive, former moderate US president was not born in America, Obama is a Muslim, Putin controls the chaos of the Trump presidency to make America look bad, the holocaust never happened, 9/11 was an inside job, the freemasons and Illuminati control the world (one version says in conjunction with the Catholics and another says they are the enemies of the Catholics), various JFK theories, Iran is a British colony, Iraq had WMD they could deploy to attack London in minutes (a war happened because politicians actually believed this one), Iran has WMD they could deploy to attack various places in minutes (a war could happen because politicians actually believe this one), all countries are secretly working to form a NEW WORLD ORDER, etc.

Personally, I take all these with a grain of salt. Of course, there was a plot behind JFK and of course, 9/11 was something that suited the agendas of many hardliners across the world. The other theories are IMO ludicrous. Just interested in what others think of these and other conspiracy theories doing the rounds.

Dohnjoe · 11-07-2019 8:51pm

Inside jobs and conspiracies happen all the time, you only have to open a newspaper or turn on the news

As for the more "fantastic ones", just depends on the evidence. If there's no evidence, often it can be wishful thinking. Certain people have a passion for mysteries, conspiracies or have strong world views - and as such can be drawn to believe in certain conspiracies with little sound evidence

M5 · 16-07-2019 9:53pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Inside jobs and conspiracies happen all the time, you only have to open a newspaper or turn on the news

This is the justification for pretty much every conspiracy theory. Its flawed logic however as billions of transactions/deals etc happen every day without nefarious motivation, yet conspiracies latch on to the outliers as evidence.

Dohnjoe · 16-07-2019 11:34pm

M5 wrote: »

This is the justification for pretty much every conspiracy theory. Its flawed logic however as billions of transactions/deals etc happen every day without nefarious motivation, yet conspiracies latch on to the outliers as evidence.

I've found that most of the more far-fetched conspiracies draw on the same few incidents from the past

1. Operation Northwoods
2. USS Liberty attack
3. Gulf of Tonkin
4. MK Ultra
5. Iraq WMDs

They form the backbone of the "appeal to history" fallacies, which in turn form the basis for the "appeal to motive" fallacies which are the common denominator in most modern popular conspiracy theories

The Late Late Show · 16-07-2019 11:54pm

Conspiracy theories that work best tend to be based partly on fact. Four of the most popular ones of recent times are these:

Kennedy: It is clear that Kennedy was shot dead. It is clear someone wanted him dead. It is not so clear who. Perfect scenario for as many conspiracy theories as you like here. Dead JFK made a lot of people very wealthy and this topic shows few signs of being forgotten any time soon despite over 50 years.

Elvis is alive: Elvis Presley was a very talented singer who shot to fame and between 1954 and 1977, achieved things few if any others did. But despite his success, he was often not happy with how his career was controlled by management and he was depressed sometimes. Some claim he wanted to get away from it all and faked his own death in conspiracy theories. Books were written by a 'doctor' who was supposed to be treating the Elvis in hiding and others said a wax work was in the coffin not Elvis himself.

The moon landings and Area 51: 50 years ago, man landed on the moon according to most. But to some, it was a hoax filmed (possibly by Stanley Kubrick) in Nevada. Area 51 is linked into it to: to some, this holds secret alien remains but others claim it has the set used for the moon landings. Some also point to the flag fluttering in wind, the by today's standard primitive technology or deadly radiation belts as reasons why man could not get to the moon.

9/11: Sure, aren't conspiracy theories just harmless issues to create pub discussions or amateur debating society topics? Yes but not all are so 'harmless'. 9/11 conspiracies have been causing trouble for years. Some claim it was an inside job done by America to justify war. Some claim it was a Mossad job. In turn, some Americans tried to link 9/11 to Iraq to justify war and also tried to link it to Iran as well. 9/11 conspiracy theories have caused REAL problems that is for sure.

The point is conspiracy theories can be used to justify any point. Some believe in them and use them to form their world view. For example, Neo-Nazis tend to be holocaust deniers because it makes Nazism look a lot better (when you remove its most evil act). Denying an event happened (or didn't happen in the way it was reported) often is standard defense. Holocaust denial has been copied by others who want to divert attention away from issues that make them look worse: fake news and all that. Conspiracy theories are more plentiful now than ever and when they get believed can cause trouble.

Dohnjoe · 17-07-2019 12:38pm

bfa1509 wrote: »

I have an engineering background, and quite frankly, I can't believe any human ever got to space (or at least got to space and returned alive), let alone the moon landings. It breaks too many physical and thermodynamic laws, especially with the near perfect vacuum that is supposedly up there. (I can go at it with any opposers who are willing to spend the energy!!)

I very subtly and carefully hinted my doubts to some, close, considerate people I know and the one argument they always come up with is that too many people would have to keep it secret, thousands of people. This simply isn't true, the whole space program contracts all the projects out to 3rd party contractors who fulfil a specific project. All of these then converge together to form the program. Very few people need to be "in on it". And even if they blew the whistle, nobody would believe them.

I'd say create a new thread for this, I've been a part of the few threads over the years for this, but there are some with a lot of knowledge of the subject who may be able to address your doubts

Overheal · 17-07-2019 11:08pm

I've split the conversation.

liatroimabu · 18-07-2019 12:27am

The mattress shops in America being a front for money laundering has to be real, think it was Shane Dawson on youtube I seen talking about them but its madness.

Overheal · 18-07-2019 12:40am

I ****ing hate mattress shops.

liatroimabu · 18-07-2019 12:42am

Overheal wrote: »

I ****ing hate mattress shops.

Stuff he had was madness in the video, think its mattress firm is the name of the chain of stores. Main street of a relatively small town somewhere in the state, 3 of them on 3 of the 4 corners at a main junction, and as he says, you buy a mattress once every 10 years or so , noones ever in these shops yet you have 3 within 100 yards of each other? Something not adding up

Insect Overlord · 18-07-2019 12:42am

Overheal wrote: »

I ****ing hate mattress shops.

I saw a funny tweet today. It went along the lines of "I wish I could live the life podcast ads believe I have - a successful businessman who needs to efficiently communicate with a large staff, but who doesn't own a mattress or underwear". :pac:

Overheal · 18-07-2019 12:43am

liatroimabu wrote: »

Stuff he had was madness in the video, think its mattress firm is the name of the chain of stores. Main street of a relatively small town somewhere in the state, 3 of them on 3 of the 4 corners at a main junction, and as he says, you buy a mattress once every 10 years or so , noones ever in these shops yet you have 3 within 100 yards of each other? Something not adding up

I haven't done that math.

I am still paying down a mattress firm mattress though, so think about that.

Never owned a mattress for 10 years though. ew.

odyssey06 · 18-07-2019 9:28am

Why didn't the CIA just plant some WMDs in Iraq? If they were making the whole thing up... they would have had ample opportunity in the chaos of the invasion. That's what I'd have done if I had also created fake evidence about them.

I think there was a conspiracy about WMDs in Iraq but it was by the Iraqis, they wanted the US to think they still had WMDs as a deterrent.

odyssey06 · 18-07-2019 9:32am

The Late Late Show wrote: »

Kennedy: It is clear that Kennedy was shot dead. It is clear someone wanted him dead. It is not so clear who. Perfect scenario for as many conspiracy theories as you like here. Dead JFK made a lot of people very wealthy and this topic shows few signs of being forgotten any time soon despite over 50 years.

I think there was a conspiracy of sorts by the authorities - not to kill JFK but not to delve too far into Oswald's links because of where it might lead to i.e. the mafia or the Soviets.

The Late Late Show · 18-07-2019 1:31pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Why didn't the CIA just plant some WMDs in Iraq? If they were making the whole thing up... they would have had ample opportunity in the chaos of the invasion. That's what I'd have done if I had also created fake evidence about them.

I think there was a conspiracy about WMDs in Iraq but it was by the Iraqis, they wanted the US to think they still had WMDs as a deterrent.

I think an Iraqi opposition leader (Chalabi IIRC) peddled this and passed it onto the notorious John Bolton and Donald Rumsfeld who just needed any excuse for war. Fresh from 9/11, it was an easy sell after that. I feel a lot of people at that time GENUINELY believed Saddam had WMD and was involved in 9/11. Now we know different.

Dohnjoe · 18-07-2019 2:37pm

The Late Late Show wrote: »

I think an Iraqi opposition leader (Chalabi IIRC) peddled this and passed it onto the notorious John Bolton and Donald Rumsfeld who just needed any excuse for war. Fresh from 9/11, it was an easy sell after that. I feel a lot of people at that time GENUINELY believed Saddam had WMD and was involved in 9/11. Now we know different.

Around 30% to 50% of the US public in polls at the time (before the war), lower pretty much everywhere else

It was a very hard sell, most of the public was skeptical, there were the largest anti-war protests ever on a global scale, also the UN rejected and it was mainly the US/UK on their own (plus a hasty cobbled together "coalition of the willing"), most EU nations were firmly against, notably France, Germany and Spain

Effectively it was the Bush admin and the Blair admin relying entirely on remaining public trust in the flawed intelligence and rushing in unilaterally without international consensus/support

Cheerful Spring2 · 18-07-2019 3:27pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Why didn't the CIA just plant some WMDs in Iraq? If they were making the whole thing up... they would have had ample opportunity in the chaos of the invasion. That's what I'd have done if I had also created fake evidence about them.

I think there was a conspiracy about WMDs in Iraq but it was by the Iraqis, they wanted the US to think they still had WMDs as a deterrent.

Infrastructure and facilities would have to be present to fake it. Too big of job to fake. The Pentagon before the war released satellite mages and they claimed these Iraqi warehouses and factories were developing chemical and Biological weapons. They even claimed the trucks seen coming and going from the facilities were not ordinary trucks, but purpose build chemical mobile road units. When people went to check they discovered they were baby milk and food factories.

Cheerful Spring2 · 18-07-2019 3:45pm

The Late Late Show wrote: »

I think an Iraqi opposition leader (Chalabi IIRC) peddled this and passed it onto the notorious John Bolton and Donald Rumsfeld who just needed any excuse for war. Fresh from 9/11, it was an easy sell after that. I feel a lot of people at that time GENUINELY believed Saddam had WMD and was involved in 9/11. Now we know different.

General Richard Clarke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wesley_Clark a former Supreme Allied Commander Europe of NATO revealed the war plans in a public talk. Just weeks after 9/11 he saw a memo at Rumsfield office at the Pentagon, that detailed they had planned to invade seven countries in the middle east. Even just weeks after 9/11 Iraq was considered a legitimate target. This memo is proof they had planned this event out in advance and were just implementing it after 9/11.

Dick Cheney even appeared on news across America, NBC, Fox News, claiming ATTA was meeting Iraqi agents in Europe before 9/11. They were pushing false narratives to justify the war and manipulate and confuse the American public back then.

Cheerful Spring2 · 18-07-2019 4:05pm

The Late Late Show wrote: »

Conspiracy theories that work best tend to be based partly on fact. Four of the most popular ones of recent times are these:

Kennedy: It is clear that Kennedy was shot dead. It is clear someone wanted him dead. It is not so clear who. Perfect scenario for as many conspiracy theories as you like here. Dead JFK made a lot of people very wealthy and this topic shows few signs of being forgotten any time soon despite over 50 years.

Elvis is alive: Elvis Presley was a very talented singer who shot to fame and between 1954 and 1977, achieved things few if any others did. But despite his success, he was often not happy with how his career was controlled by management and he was depressed sometimes. Some claim he wanted to get away from it all and faked his own death in conspiracy theories. Books were written by a 'doctor' who was supposed to be treating the Elvis in hiding and others said a wax work was in the coffin not Elvis himself.

The moon landings and Area 51: 50 years ago, man landed on the moon according to most. But to some, it was a hoax filmed (possibly by Stanley Kubrick) in Nevada. Area 51 is linked into it to: to some, this holds secret alien remains but others claim it has the set used for the moon landings. Some also point to the flag fluttering in wind, the by today's standard primitive technology or deadly radiation belts as reasons why man could not get to the moon.

9/11: Sure, aren't conspiracy theories just harmless issues to create pub discussions or amateur debating society topics? Yes but not all are so 'harmless'. 9/11 conspiracies have been causing trouble for years. Some claim it was an inside job done by America to justify war. Some claim it was a Mossad job. In turn, some Americans tried to link 9/11 to Iraq to justify war and also tried to link it to Iran as well. 9/11 conspiracy theories have caused REAL problems that is for sure.

The point is conspiracy theories can be used to justify any point. Some believe in them and use them to form their world view. For example, Neo-Nazis tend to be holocaust deniers because it makes Nazism look a lot better (when you remove its most evil act). Denying an event happened (or didn't happen in the way it was reported) often is standard defense. Holocaust denial has been copied by others who want to divert attention away from issues that make them look worse: fake news and all that. Conspiracy theories are more plentiful now than ever and when they get believed can cause trouble.

9/11 is a real conspiracy. Forget about who and why buildings were blown up on 9/11.

There is a history were you can trace and link US intelligence to Al Qeada.

Pakistan ISI, Saudi Intelligence and the CIA ran a secret private army network for decades going back to the 70s called operation cyclone.

The biggest clue Pakistan ISI was involved in 9/11 -General Hamza a general in the Pakistan army wiring Mohammed Atta ( a 9/11 pilot) 100,000 dollars in cash just before 9/11. Shortly after 9/11 he was forced into retirement. The United States never persuaded General Hamza for information and requested he be arrested and brought to court on charges of funding terrorism on 9/11. The United States is not interested in exposing its secret private army networks to the public. American journalists are useless too because they are not seeing the big picture or they be told to back off.

Everyone talks about Bin Laden the master ring leader, but Ayman al-Zawahiri was second in command and is still at large for 18 years and probably a very good reason why US intelligence has never caught him, he would expose the secret dealings between them all.

The United States helped secret networks like aL Qaeda using Pakistan ISI to pass on money to them before 9/11.

George Tenet who was CIA director in 2001 was well aware these secret networks existed and 9/11 was allowed to happen. Some folks in deepest corners of US intelligence facilitated the Al Qaeda network to attack America on 9/11.

CIA never wanted to destroy Al Qaeda prior to 2001, they 10 chances to kill Bin laden, but something always stopped them from doing it and obvious why, he was too important to kill. CIA has cleverly manipulated the public, the official media, and the world and changed the substance of what really happened behind the scenes.

Nawaf Al-Hazmi and Khalid Al-Mihdhar were two well-known Al Qaeda operatives known to the CIA in 1999, and yet they still managed to escape US intelligence and capture inside the United States for 2 years. They boarded flight 77 on 9/11. You don't need to be a conspiracy theorist to realise the CIA been lying to the American public, aboput what they knew and when.

Tenet is one of the bad guys who is walking around free with a big pension and he is one of the chief people responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Tenet was well aware there were 9/11 bad guys inside the United States, but actively sabotaged attempts to capture them. It's sickening how the CIA got away with this and politicians in 2001 have facilitated this cover-up since..

Dohnjoe · 18-07-2019 4:17pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

9/11 is a real conspiracy.

Correction, it's your opinion it's a conspiracy. Which is not to be confused with stating something as consensus based historical fact. Further, the theory you maintain on 911 is completely unique to you.

Cheerful Spring2 · 18-07-2019 4:26pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Correction, it's your opinion it's a conspiracy. Which is not to be confused with stating something as consensus based historical fact. Further, the theory you maintain on 911 is completely unique to you.

It's not an opinion Nawaf Al-Hazmi and Khalid Al-Mihdhar were known to the CIA in 1999 and the CIA withheld their whereabouts from the FBI.

You don't have to be conspiracy theorist to notice the official narrative is nonsense. They used their real names and just a quick search you would have located the men in hours or days. CIA kept this information secret and its very important to know why?

FBI and CIA intelligence failure, is the cover up, for something else.

liatroimabu · 18-07-2019 4:26pm

The guinness two pour pint thing is all a marketing gimmick and its become so ingrained in society and our heads that if we don't see it being done we automatically determine it to be a bad pint. The pint isn't actually any different, Diageo are just inside our heads man...

walshb · 18-07-2019 4:31pm

Aren't there some how actually want to believe that jets did not fly into the trade centers?

And that the U.S. themselves destroyed the buildings?

Dohnjoe · 18-07-2019 4:33pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

It's not an opinion Nawaf Al-Hazmi and Khalid Al-Mihdhar were known to the CIA in 1999 and the CIA withheld their whereabouts from the FBI.

You don't have to be conspiracy theorist to notice the official narrative is nonsense. They used their real names and just a quick search you would have located the men in hours or days. CIA kept this information secret and its very important to know why?

FBI and CIA intelligence failure, is the cover up, for something else.

You are presenting your opinion as fact

To keep it simple

The world is round - fact
The world is flat - a personal opinion

The ISS exists - fact
The ISS doesnt exist - personal opinion

911 was a terrorist attack - fact
911 was some inside job - personal opinion

Cheerful Spring2 · 18-07-2019 4:43pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

You are presenting your opinion as fact

To keep it simple

The world is round - fact
The world is flat - a personal opinion

The ISS exists - fact
The ISS doesnt exist - personal opinion

911 was a terrorist attack - fact
911 was some inside job - personal opinion

Sorry but its public info factual actually. General Hamza wired 100,000 dollars to Mohammed Atta weeks before 9/11.

It factual info the Saudis had agents and officials meeting 9/11 hijackers and helping them during their stay in the United States.

None of these leads were followed up on, in fact Bush and his cronies gave an order for the FBI to stand down and leave it alone. Many FBI agents involved in Pentbom investigation of 9/11 attacks have testified to this that they were told by their superiors to not investigate further.

The real culprits of 9/11 are free and have never got charged. They decided to go after totally innocent countries like Iraq, Syria, Libya and Iran probably next.

Dohnjoe · 18-07-2019 5:02pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

Sorry but its public info factual actually

Someone may glue it together using certain facts (out of context), but a statement that: "911 was an inside job" is opinion, not fact.

Overheal · 18-07-2019 5:03pm

This isn’t a 9/11 thread. Welcome back. Thought you were done posting until I am demodded/Hulsey came out with his study. And neither of those things has happened.

Dr. Bre · 18-07-2019 5:05pm

walshb wrote: »

Aren't there some how actually want to believe that jets did not fly into the trade centers?

And that the U.S. themselves destroyed the buildings?

Some reckon the jets were holograms

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 18-07-2019 5:07pm

Dr. Bre wrote: »

Some reckon the jets were holograms

What a rubbish idea.

Cheerful Spring2 · 18-07-2019 5:08pm

Overheal wrote: »

This isn’t a 9/11 thread. Welcome back. Thought you were done posting until I am demodded/Hulsey came out with his study. And neither of those things has happened.

It is a thread about what conspiracies are real. And the op gave his opinion i gave mine about 9/11.

9/11 is a big topic, itnot just about hulsey study about WTC7. There a background to why it happened and who likely was behind the attacks. It certainly wasn't Iraq.

Cheerful Spring2 · 18-07-2019 5:12pm

Dr. Bre wrote: »

Some reckon the jets were holograms

First problem with that is- hundreds of people on New York streets saw the second plane. Secondly the plane was registererd with an airline and it went missing on 9/11.

Cheerful Spring2 · 18-07-2019 5:25pm

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Why would the US government take down two huge buildings in NY as an excuse the invade. Would they not just use a small device which would have the same affect anywhere in the US...makes no sense.

Three actually, but that a topic for threads titled 9/11.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 18-07-2019 5:26pm

Gulf of tonkin

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 18-07-2019 5:27pm

USS Maine.

Cheerful Spring2 · 18-07-2019 5:30pm

First gulf war also had false flag narratives. The US held a meeting and was claimed Iraqi soldiers killed babies in the incubators at hospitals. The first George Bush used this to gather American support for the first gulf war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 18-07-2019 7:13pm

WMD In Iraq.

Dohnjoe · 18-07-2019 7:45pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

First gulf war also had false flag narratives. The US held a meeting and was claimed Iraqi soldiers killed babies in the incubators at hospitals. The first George Bush used this to gather American support for the first gulf war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony

Indeed but not a false flag. The above was related to disinformation from Kuwaiti sources. The media picked up on it and reported it, it was later found to be false.

The US (and allies) conducted the war based on the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait

It's worth noting that you use Wiki here as a source, however you discard it when it contradicts your personal conspiracy theories. Interesting double standard.

The Late Late Show · 19-07-2019 12:24am

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

It is a thread about what conspiracies are real. And the op gave his opinion i gave mine about 9/11.

9/11 is a big topic, itnot just about hulsey study about WTC7. There a background to why it happened and who likely was behind the attacks. It certainly wasn't Iraq.

9/11 is one of the big game changer events in recent history and we are still feeling its negative influence today. Out of it came a lot of CTs among them who did it and why. I find it hard to believe that the Americans directly did it but I also find it hard to believe something this big could be planned without anyone knowing. When you think of individuals like John Bolton, Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney being in government, anything is possible: Handmaid's Tale style terrorist attack done by themselves and then used as excuse for war? Or a blind eye turned to the ISIS/Al Qaeda organisation of it? My guess is deeper Saudi involvement in it than the Americans cared to admit and perhaps eyes turned off the Saudis by all because Bolton, Rumsfeld, etc. idolise the Saudis. Whatever way, we know a lot of people who were involved in 9/11 who were never brought to justice.

Cheerful Spring2 · 19-07-2019 2:47pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Indeed but not a false flag. The above was related to disinformation from Kuwaiti sources. The media picked up on it and reported it, it was later found to be false.

The US (and allies) conducted the war based on the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait

It's worth noting that you use Wiki here as a source, however you discard it when it contradicts your personal conspiracy theories. Interesting double standard.

Disinformation used by George Bush Snr frequently to convince the American public the war had to happen. The American public was not convinced they should intervene. US started claiming the Iraqi soldiers were baby killers and support for the war increased.

Yes, i sometimes use wikileaks to locate official information about an incident or event in history, so what?

False again. You wrong in saying Iraq Invasion of Kuwait was enough.

Info taken from the link The testimony was widely publicized, and was cited numerous times by United States senators and President George H. W. Bush in their rationale to back Kuwait in the Gulf War.

Cheerful Spring2 · 19-07-2019 3:19pm

The Late Late Show wrote: »

9/11 is one of the big game changer events in recent history and we are still feeling its negative influence today. Out of it came a lot of CTs among them who did it and why. I find it hard to believe that the Americans directly did it but I also find it hard to believe something this big could be planned without anyone knowing. When you think of individuals like John Bolton, Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney being in government, anything is possible: Handmaid's Tale style terrorist attack done by themselves and then used as excuse for war? Or a blind eye turned to the ISIS/Al Qaeda organisation of it? My guess is deeper Saudi involvement in it than the Americans cared to admit and perhaps eyes turned off the Saudis by all because Bolton, Rumsfeld, etc. idolise the Saudis. Whatever way, we know a lot of people who were involved in 9/11 who were never brought to justice.

I don't believe the official narrative for many reasons. FBI agents involved in the Pentbom 9/11 investigation have claimed the 28 pages of the 9/11 commission report is fake news. During their limited short investigation they had found substantial evidence Saudi agents and government officials directly supported the 9/11 hijackers operation to target the US. One FBI agent Mark Rossini who was involved said he was given a directive from his superiors to stop the investigation. Statements from people who were involved in finding out who did this, convinces me there was a conspiracy and obstruction of justice ongioing after 9/11.

I don't blame America for 9/11. I do believe a rogue establishement outfit was involved in helping and faciliting the event. Not every general and politician was involved.

Tenet clearly involved and faciliting the attacks to happen. CIA kept information about top Al Qeada members to themselves. You not going to convince me they could not find them when then were using the real names to rent cars,stay at hotels, and rent apartments, and they used credit cards in stores to buy goods. CIA even had pictures of some of the hijackers in 1999. The were also known to have entered the country in 2000 and CIA had known this. The official narrative does make whole lot of sense when intelligence agencies in Western Europe were warning Al Qaeda members were planning on hitting US targets inside the United States. Are you telling me the CIA thought Nawaf Al-Hazmi and Khalid Al-Mihdhar are on holiday?

At very least they wanted the attacks to go ahead and CIA did everything to make sure it happened as scheduled.

Donald Rumsfield went missing on 9/11 for 40 minutes. He claimed he was in a meeting recieving a briefing. And this was after the second plane hit the second tower. For defence secretary of US to decide a briefing more important then saving American lives, is very revealing. He also denied knowing what building 7 was, on video by the way and yet his last job was chairperson for a company occupied multiple floors inside WTC7

Dohnjoe · 19-07-2019 3:19pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

False again. You wrong in saying Iraq Invasion of Kuwait was enough.

Nope.

The invasion of Kuwait is the reason the US and allies went to war with Iraq, to liberate Kuwait

Here's Wikipedia since you now seem to selectively trust sources

The Gulf War (2 August 1990 – 28 February 1991), codenamed Operation Desert Shield (2 August 1990 – 17 January 1991) for operations leading to the buildup of troops and defense of Saudi Arabia and Operation Desert Storm (17 January 1991 – 28 February 1991) in its combat phase, was a war waged by coalition forces from 35 nations led by the United States against Iraq in response to Iraq's invasion and annexation of Kuwait arising from oil pricing and production disputes.

It wasn't like that wasn't happening and all of a sudden this incubator story came out and they changed their minds

Also it was Kuwaiti propaganda to encourage public opinion, not a US "false flag"

Dohnjoe · 19-07-2019 3:25pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

I don't blame America for 9/11. I do believe a rogue establishement outfit was involved in helping and faciliting the event. Not every general and politician was involved.

You believe that:

Larry Silverstein (the leaseholder on the WTC buildings), his insurers, Saudi princes, CIA Mujahideen, Bush, Rove, Cheney, military, businessmen, NIST investigators, NORAD, Pakistani ISI, Joe Biden and 8 "men" all conspired together pull off 911 as an inside job

Or has that changed again?

Cheerful Spring2 · 19-07-2019 3:32pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Nope.

The invasion of Kuwait is the reason the US and allies went to war with Iraq, to liberate Kuwait

Here's Wikipedia since you now seem to selectively trust sources

It wasn't like that wasn't happening and all of a sudden this incubator story came out and they changed their minds

Also it was Kuwaiti propaganda to encourage public opinion, not a US "false flag"

They used Kuwaiti US ambassador daughter to convince the the American public Iraqi soldiers were killing babies during the occupation way before any war started. She did not reveal who she was, she was coached to lie and US politicians used her testimony to gain support for this war. Are you telling me nobody in the US establishment knew who she was?

This was a clear false flag narrative. You prefer disinformation.

Cheerful Spring2 · 19-07-2019 3:46pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

You believe that:

Larry Silverstein (the leaseholder on the WTC buildings), his insurers, Saudi princes, CIA Mujahideen, Bush, Rove, Cheney, military, businessmen, NIST investigators, NORAD, Pakistani ISI, Joe Biden and 8 "men" all conspired together pull off 911 as an inside job

Or has that changed again?

You can ignore that General Hamza wired 100,000 dollars to Atta weeks before 9/11. This is a clear and direct link to a general who had ties with the Pakistan army and ISI. Days before 9/11 General Hamza met Dick Cheney, officials at the Pentagon and National Security Council" as well as meetings with CIA Director Tenet. This man was never asked about this and he has escaped justice.

I believe the FBI agents involved in the 9/11 investigation, know more about this then i and you do. They have come out and said their Saudi 9/11 terrorist investigation was shut down on the orders of their superiors. If there nothing to hide why would their superiors order them to stop looking into this? Bush and cronies focused on Iraq and other countries instead is telling.

CIA funding Sunni lead Islamic groups is established history. The CIA just likes to pretend they stopped helping them when the Soviets left Afganistan

Dohnjoe · 19-07-2019 3:53pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

They used Kuwaiti US ambassador daughter to convince the the American public Iraqi soldiers were killing babies during the occupation way before any war started. She did not reveal who she was, she was coached to lie and US politicians used her testimony to gain support for this war. Are you telling me nobody in the US establishment knew who she was?

This was a clear false flag narrative. You prefer disinformation.

A false flag is generally an incident designed to trigger a war - the war was already triggered. It was propaganda/disinformation from the Kuwaitis

Cheerful Spring2 · 19-07-2019 3:56pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

A false flag is generally an incident designed to trigger a war - the war was already triggered. It was propaganda/disinformation from the Kuwaitis

Defintion of false flag
A false flag is a covert operation designed to deceive; the deception creates the appearance of a particular party, group, or nation being responsible for some activity, disguising the actual source of responsibility.

Kuwait US ambassdor daughter pretended she witnessed a event that never occurred.

Dohnjoe · 19-07-2019 3:59pm

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

You can ignore that General Hamza wired 100,000 dollars to Atta weeks before 9/11. This is a clear and direct link to a general who had ties with the Pakistan army and ISI. Days before 9/11 General Hamza met Dick Cheney, officials at the Pentagon and National Security Council" as well as meetings with CIA Director Tenet. This man was never asked about this and he has escaped justice.

I believe the FBI agents involved in the 9/11 investigation, know more about this then i and you do. They have come out and said their Saudi 9/11 terrorist investigation was shut down on the orders of their superiors. If there nothing to hide why would their superiors order them to stop looking into this? Bush and cronies focused on Iraq and other countries instead is telling.

CIA funding Sunni lead Islamic groups is established history. The CIA just likes to pretend they stopped helping them when the Soviets left Afganistan

There is the 911 debate forum for the above stuff

I'm just putting forward the list of people you believe were involved in a conspiracy theory that is completely unique to you and invented by you

To stay on topic, to decide whether a conspiracy is true or not - there is no debate when the conspiracy theory itself is entirely unique to one person. You are the only person who believes in your custom-made sequence of events

And that in itself is related more to psychology than any grounding in reality

Cheerful Spring2 · 19-07-2019 4:06pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

There is the 911 debate forum for the above stuff

I'm just putting forward the list of people you believe were involved in a conspiracy theory that is completely unique to you and invented by you

To stay on topic, to decide whether a conspiracy is true or not - there is no debate when the conspiracy theory itself is entirely unique to one person. You are the only person who believes in your custom-made sequence of events

And that in itself is related more to psychology than any grounding in reality

Rubbish. I listen to what said by those people involved in the 9/11 investigation and public information now undisputable fact- General Hamza wired 100,000 dollars to Mohammed Atta weeks before 9/11. If all just an Al Qeada operation why did this general wire money to the alleged ringleader of the 9/11 attacks? You don't seem to be all that interested in knowing and finding out. You prefer to believe it was 19 random muslims guys and Bin Laden behind it, even though the evidence is overwhelming there were many others involved including state actors and official and government agents belonging to intelligence agencies in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Bin laden living in a wall compound in Pakistan near a military acedemy of ISI does not ring alarm bells for you too.

Overheal · 19-07-2019 4:07pm

No more 9/11 posts in this thread. Cards to follow.

Dohnjoe · 19-07-2019 4:11pm

Edit: staying on topic

Many conspiracy theories are more related to human psychology than reality. A good few psychology articles on this.

The Nal · 19-07-2019 4:17pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Edit: staying on topic

Many conspiracy theories are more related to human psychology than reality. A good few psychology articles on this.

Narcissists, paranoid people etc much much more like to believe in them.

Which conspiracy theories are real and which are not?

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