Architect not listening to our needs

Teach30 · 10-07-2019 5:02pm #1

As per title is this a common occurrence, it is to be expected?
Initially we sent our architect a list of our requirements, he forwarded us plans which we then looked at and sent him some more requirements and he made some changes.

We were both so underwhelmed and disappointed by the revised drawings. They are no way suitable and totally don’t fit our needs. At no stage has he asked to meet with us to discuss options, it’s as if we are supposed to come up with the answers.

Is this how it’s meant to be? I feel
So confused and annoyed by his manner and the whole process so far.

Any advice appreciated.

pinktoe · 10-07-2019 5:12pm

Go somewhere else

They work of the brief you give them and give advise. If they can't do that, they are no use to you.

Our architect was great, he told use what was sustainable or not, gave ideas and alternatives and everything turned out great even some of the things that we needed convincing off. Everything we wanted was in place sometimes with improvements because of him

We were in regular contact

GreeBo · 10-07-2019 5:19pm

Some architects have a cookie cutter design in their head and give that to every client no matter what you actually ask for.

If you are not getting what you want go elsewhere.

Teach30 · 10-07-2019 5:31pm

pinktoe wrote: »

Go somewhere else

They work of the brief you give them and give advise. If they can't do that, they are no use to you.

Our architect was great, he told use what was sustainable or not, gave ideas and alternatives and everything turned out great even some of the things that we needed convincing off. Everything we wanted was in place sometimes with improvements because of him

We were in regular contact

Thanks for that, when we met him he gave us a drawing and sent us home. He didn’t spend any time going through it with us explaining it or listening to what I could clearly see immediately would not work - he included what we wanted but not in a very practical way. Initially I didn’t want to e-mail him as I didn’t want to come across as annoying but maybe I should be doing that?

I’m totally exasperated by him and he’s now looking for more money before he sends us the next set of drawings. I’m worried these won’t be suitable either and I’ll be out of pocket for something that still isn’t right.

DOCARCH · 10-07-2019 5:46pm

Teach30 wrote: »

I didn’t want to e-mail him as I didn’t want to come across as annoying but maybe I should be doing that?

You should be doing that.

sydthebeat · 10-07-2019 5:54pm

Teach30 wrote: »

Thanks for that, when we met him he gave us a drawing and sent us home. He didn’t spend any time going through it with us explaining it or listening to what I could clearly see immediately would not work - he included what we wanted but not in a very practical way. Initially I didn’t want to e-mail him as I didn’t want to come across as annoying but maybe I should be doing that?

I’m totally exasperated by him and he’s now looking for more money before he sends us the next set of drawings. I’m worried these won’t be suitable either and I’ll be out of pocket for something that still isn’t right.

did he give you a sketch drawing at the very first meeting??? that must have been a pretty rough effort.

its a very poor architect who wont try to explain their design to the client....

insist on a meeting and express very clearly that you are not happy with the changes, but suggest that maybe theres a communication issue so a face to face meeting as soon as possible is the best course of action....... express that you are not used to looking at 2D plans and elevations and you need them explained as to how they work in "real life"

(that wouldnt at all be an unusual request from a client)

Teach30 · 10-07-2019 6:08pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

did he give you a sketch drawing at the very first meeting??? that must have been a pretty rough effort.

its a very poor architect who wont try to explain their design to the client....

insist on a meeting and express very clearly that you are not happy with the changes, but suggest that maybe theres a communication issue so a face to face meeting as soon as possible is the best course of action....... express that you are not used to looking at 2D plans and elevations and you need them explained as to how they work in "real life"

(that wouldnt at all be an unusual request from a client)

Initial set of drawings were what I assume were a proper set - they weren’t rough I don’t think they had measurements etc. He gave them to us but didn’t go through them, he sent us home with them to go through them and then suggest changes.

We forwarded on what we thought would be good changes and he sent us back revised drawings which were not suitable at all, in fact the initial set were better in a way. It was so disappointing to not see anything positive happening.

Partner and I also don’t live together so a lot of what we are suggesting we are only assuming we need we still arnt too sure of certain things. Eg a walk in wardrobe would be useful but in the plans it didn’t look right, I said this to architect and I was hoping he would suggest alternatives in second plan he just stuck it in again.

Planning a house is hard enough but it’s nearly harder when he isn’t making suggestions/alternatives for us.

Teach30 · 10-07-2019 8:25pm

DOCARCH wrote: »

You should be doing that.

Ok good to know.
Just wondering apart from the obvious room uses etc what exactly should we be telling the architect. We gave him our initial wish list but what else should I be including.

I assumed he would suggest alternatives give design options etc but he hasn’t should we be asking him to do this?

We dont know enough about planning and how architects work so the whole process is very daunting and as we are paying a lot of money we assumed he would be a little friendly more helpful in his manner which he isn’t!

DOCARCH · 10-07-2019 8:30pm

Teach30 wrote: »

Ok good to know.
Just wondering apart from the obvious room uses etc what exactly should we be telling the architect. We gave him our initial wish list but what else should I be including.

I assumed he would suggest alternatives give design options etc but he hasn’t should we be asking him to do this?

We dont know enough about planning and how architects work so the whole process is very daunting and as we are paying a lot of money we assumed he would be a little friendly more helpful in his manner which he isn’t!

What I was getting at was simply suggesting that if you are not happy, tell him.

If there are valid reasons/justifications for his design, it sounds like he is not communicating these to you at all.

Teach30 · 10-07-2019 8:58pm

DOCARCH wrote: »

What I was getting at was simply suggesting that if you are not happy, tell him.

If there are valid reasons/justifications for his design, it sounds like he is not communicating these to you at all.

Right it’s prob a communication issue so.

His design probably makes sense to him and suits his needs but what he proposed definitely did not suit our needs and what makes it even more difficult for me to comprehend is that he took no time to even consider our needs. I assume a good architect would do this?

It would have saved him drawing a second plan that was off the wall altogether and is of no use and has set us back another 3 weeks now.

Anyways I’m currently looking up a new architect but can’t figure out how to know a good one from a bad one!

DOCARCH · 10-07-2019 9:03pm

Teach30 wrote: »

I assume a good architect would do this?

Yes! That's pretty much fundamental!

Teach30 · 10-07-2019 9:10pm

DOCARCH wrote: »

Yes! That's pretty much fundamental!

Right so he’ll have to go I think! He’s looking for €1500 now and wants it before he produces a 3rd plan - I don’t think I’m willing to take the risk..

work · 10-07-2019 9:14pm

Teach30 wrote: »

Right so he’ll have to go I think! He’s looking for €1500 now and wants it before he produces a 3rd plan - I don’t think I’m willing to take the risk..

He sounds like a waste of space.

Vodkat · 10-07-2019 9:36pm

Honestly go with your gut, this is the most crucial stage of the build. This is not how the design process goes. You should have a consultation initially in person, discuss your wants and maybe some external aesthetics that your hoping to achieve. Send him off to draw up the plans. When the first set is drafted, he should have emailed you a copy then you print and Mark what you like, what you don't like and any changes etc. Bring these with you for the next consultation in which he discusses why you want the changes. So for example, we met after the first draft and I discussed how I didn't like the main bathroom downstairs to be accessed through my utility, I wanted it to have a separate door. He said in order to facilitate this the pantry and utility had to be flipped around. It took some space from my utility. But he then suggested putting in a separate laundry upstairs, where I had a hot press and extra large bathroom. The bathroom was made narrower and the hot press made wider and I now had a laundry. If he is not discussing the plans with you then you will never get what you need.
I changed our plans 5 times, 3 times before planning submission, and internal changes after submission. This wasn't me being a fussy client, if we are building a house and spending hundreds of thousands on it, it needs to be right. I think you should find a new architect, one with a reputation or from word of mouth. Try the Self build and renovations Ireland FB page. You will get plenty of recommendations. All the best with your build!

Teach30 · 10-07-2019 9:48pm

Vodkat wrote: »

Honestly go with your gut, this is the most crucial stage of the build. This is not how the design process goes. You should have a consultation initially in person, discuss your wants and maybe some external aesthetics that your hoping to achieve. Send him off to draw up the plans. When the first set is drafted, he should have emailed you a copy then you print and Mark what you like, what you don't like and any changes etc. Bring these with you for the next consultation in which he discusses why you want the changes. So for example, we met after the first draft and I discussed how I didn't like the main bathroom downstairs to be accessed through my utility, I wanted it to have a separate door. He said in order to facilitate this the pantry and utility had to be flipped around. It took some space from my utility. But he then suggested putting in a separate laundry upstairs, where I had a hot press and extra large bathroom. The bathroom was made narrower and the hot press made wider and I now had a laundry. If he is not discussing the plans with you then you will never get what you need.
I changed our plans 5 times, 3 times before planning submission, and internal changes after submission. This wasn't me being a fussy client, if we are building a house and spending hundreds of thousands on it, it needs to be right. I think you should find a new architect, one with a reputation or from word of mouth. Try the Self build and renovations Ireland FB page. You will get plenty of recommendations. All the best with your build!

Thanks Vodkat for taking the time to write such detailed reply. A part of me feels well he has to draw what we want and he’ll surely get it right the next time but I think he’s a bit cheeky requesting money when he hasn’t produced a plan that we like. We heard about him through friends and he is fully qualified I haven’t seen any of his previous houses etc which doesn’t bode well. He’s actually on that Facebook group but might post anonymously anyways!

Would it be cheeky to ask him to produce the next set of drawings before payment. At the end of the day he has to draw what we want, we’re not looking for anything fancy at all just something that’s functional and will pass the planning.

JoeA3 · 10-07-2019 10:17pm

I was in a similar predicament last October/November. We got a set of drawings from our first architect. Initially I thought I liked them, or at least I wanted to like them. He was the expert right? And I was blindingly excited by the whole thing. But when my wife and I looked at them properly and sought opinions of others, we realised we were not at all happy. And worryingly there were definitely elements in the plans that would likely have met strong opposition from the planners.

So when we approached him and tried to convey our concerns he got the hump basically. He didn’t seem to open to changing his grand design.

So we decided to draw a line under it and go our separate ways. I got the feeling he was as well pleased we cut the cord.

We sought out help from an alternative architect and I’m pleased to say it has worked out very well. We got a design we wanted and we broke ground on the site last week

So go with your gut. The cost of switching now will be small beans in the scheme of things.

seannash · 10-07-2019 10:29pm

Definitely change but bring something solid to your next architect. Sizes of rooms, style of house (modern, Georgian,z etc)
Bring pictures of the exterior,how many bathrooms and bedrooms.
Are you being 100% clear with all this or are you telling them I want 4 bedrooms, 3 bathrooms, large kitchen diner and big sitting room with fireplace and expecting him to read your mind in terms of style of house?
If you've brought all this info to your first guy then yeah definitely don't go any further.

Also ask your next architect to show you what he's done. Of you don't see anything in his previous work that you find interesting or exciting move onto the next one

Teach30 · 10-07-2019 11:06pm

seannash wrote: »

Definitely change but bring something solid to your next architect. Sizes of rooms, style of house (modern, Georgian,z etc)
Bring pictures of the exterior,how many bathrooms and bedrooms.
Are you being 100% clear with all this or are you telling them I want 4 bedrooms, 3 bathrooms, large kitchen diner and big sitting room with fireplace and expecting him to read your mind in terms of style of house?
If you've brought all this info to your first guy then yeah definitely don't go any further.

Also ask your next architect to show you what he's done. Of you don't see anything in his previous work that you find interesting or exciting move onto the next one

Thanks I would like to think I did both of what you suggested - we gave him an indication of rooms, uses etc and some
pictures. But because my partner and I dont live together yet I suppose it’s hard to say exactly what we require. I Don’t expect him to read our minds but I don’t want to give him too many pics ideas etc first off as I was excited to see what ideas he would have himself. At the same time it wouldn’t take a genius to know what a working farmhouse would require something he didn’t really keep in mind when drawing, I think this is what annoyed me - fancy expensive features that wouldn’t suit a farming lifestyle despite the fact he knows we are farming!

As regards house style he’s been telling us certain styles won’t get through planning eg Georgian and wouldn’t design this style house for us. We took this as verbatim...

I’m wondering now were we wrong to.. can a good architect get anything through the application process?

JoeA3 · 11-07-2019 12:41am

Teach30 wrote: »

As regards house style he’s been telling us certain styles won’t get through planning eg Georgian and wouldn’t design this style house for us. We took this as verbatim...

I’m wondering now were we wrong to.. can a good architect get anything through the application process?

He's largely correct in that regard. The planners tend to favour contemporary styles now with minimal fussy details. Mock-georgian style and/or large big blocky "deep plan" designs with over bearing roofs are frowned on. Have a look for one of the "rural design guides" on the county council websites. Cork have a good one here: https://www.corkcoco.ie/sites/default/files/2017-05/planning%20enquirer.pdf

That said, I still see mock Georgian monstrosities getting granted planning so who knows...

BryanF · 11-07-2019 7:16am

OP you’ve given very little specifics. Would you be willing to share the wishlist and the first set of plans issued (albeit removing company names etc)

Teach30 · 11-07-2019 9:37am

BryanF wrote: »

OP you’ve given very little specifics. Would you be willing to share the wishlist and the first set of plans issued (albeit removing company names etc)

I don’t want to do that just yet, if we get rid of him I’ll consider it. Tbh what he drew would prob be grand for most people but it’s not what I envisioned. A sit down chat with us would have put me at ease and saved us a few weeks.

Thanks to everyone who replied, it’s good to know that he should be explaining things to us and should be giving us more time.

Currently going to wait for next set of plans and see how that goes, not paying him until the end though!

seannash · 11-07-2019 11:15am

Teach30 wrote: »

Currently going to wait for next set of plans and see how that goes, not paying him until the end though!

I understand your reasoning for not paying but there is a bit of work that goes into drawing up plans. Its slightly unfair to have him draw plans up and then not pay if you dont like them. if that was the done thing then anyone doing a little extension on their house could have someone draw them up and not pay and show them to a builder who'll build it. (I know its not detailed plans were talking about)

Word may also get around if you dont pay and could harm you in future if you decide to swap architects.
Most architects are quite busy these days (The boom is back and all)
Cut your losses now, dont have him do anymore work and find another architect.

Frogeye · 11-07-2019 1:00pm

[QUOTE=T

Would it be cheeky to ask him to produce the next set of drawings before payment. At the end of the day he has to draw what we want, we’re not looking for anything fancy at all just something that’s functional and will pass the planning.[/QUOTE]

Did you have a contract with him before you started? It should have been clear on when payments are required? then you can see if he is right to ask for payment before issuing drawings. Usually payments are made against milestones, so a milestone might be your approval of a design based on a set number of revisions and an agreed rate for additional revision.

Frogeye

Teach30 · 11-07-2019 1:29pm

seannash wrote: »

I understand your reasoning for not paying but there is a bit of work that goes into drawing up plans. Its slightly unfair to have him draw plans up and then not pay if you dont like them. if that was the done thing then anyone doing a little extension on their house could have someone draw them up and not pay and show them to a builder who'll build it. (I know its not detailed plans were talking about)

Completely agree with you but had we received drawings that were in some way satisfactory and had I felt we were given care and attention I would have no problem paying him.

It’s also not fair to draw something that is in now way workable for a our needs - which he knows of and keep stringing us along for a few months.

Teach30 · 11-07-2019 1:32pm

Frogeye wrote: »

Did you have a contract with him before you started? It should have been clear on when payments are required? then you can see if he is right to ask for payment before issuing drawings. Usually payments are made against milestones, so a milestone might be your approval of a design based on a set number of revisions and an agreed rate for additional revision.

Frogeye

He sent us a rough outline of payment so it’s not at all clear. Have no issue paying if he was drawing something useful and discussing it with us.

I’ve been in touch with him and I’m hoping the next drawings will be better. I’m almost too afraid to get excited about it though because I’ll lose it if he still hasn’t got something decent drawn in two weeks time!

pinktoe · 11-07-2019 2:00pm

Would you consider drawing the plans and front, rear side elevevations yourself and showing them to your partner. Keep drawing until you agree on what ye want and then use an architect.

Also browse daft, Pinterest, Google images if you haven't already done that, take the best of a few houses, print them of with dimensions and show them to your architect. Don't worry about sounding crazy or stupid, they like to know what you want but can't always interprets it from just chatting.

I originally wanted to construct a house with 14 shipping containers but after a few hours on Photoshop the inside wasn't what I wanted since structural beams messed up the flow. The architect worked very close to the external vision I had and managed to add the kitchen that wasn't practical before. We went with a concrete and exposed metal build.

I can recommend a Galway based architect in your looking it that area.

sydthebeat · 11-07-2019 2:08pm

pinktoe wrote: »

Would you consider drawing the plans and front, rear side elevevations yourself and showing them to your partner. Keep drawing until you agree on what ye want and then use an architect.

to be very honest, as a designer i would consider that a very poor approach to take.

youre either engaging the architect for their experience and ability to design, or your not.... if youre not, then dont engage an architect.

when i find that a client comes to me with a pre-designed plan from themselves, i find that its incredibly hard to break then away from that plan, because they have invested time and effort into it.. even though it could be fundamentally flawed.

the best approach is to take the second part of your post (pics, photos, clippings etc) and for the client to come up with a detailed written brief of what they want in their home.. how they want it to flow, what features they like and (more importantly) dont like. This written brief coupled with photos of what they like are a good starting base for an designer to work from... but remember ultimately the house layout will be dictated by the orientation and topography of the site.

dellas1979 · 11-07-2019 10:10pm

I use an architect.

First meeting was a quick chat at the site. Look at challenges the site faced (there was one) and if/how he thought he could deal with it (he did).

Second visit was me listing out what I wanted/spec of project. We spoke about a big challenge which was cost to build (that he was to design something for a certain amount).

Third visit was I got a presentation of where he got his inspiration from. He explained the design.

I let it sink in over a few days.

Fourth visit was to discuss the design and apply any changes.

After that, he made updates.

(that was up to just getting a design drawing - not including actual paper work for planning and later detailed drawings).

He has been with me through the whole build. I had seen he crosses his T's and dots his I's. And was confident with him. We are currently a bit pissed off with each other over a payment to a builder. But I know he will do right.

Edit: If he is RIAI registered, he must comply with their rules, which is to fulfill client's spec. He gave me a copy of those rules/guidelines when we started.

DOCARCH · 12-07-2019 6:40am

dellas1979 wrote: »

If he is RIAI registered, he must comply with their rules, which is to fulfill client's spec. He gave me a copy of those rules/guidelines when we started.

I am not aware of that one! Not sure it's that clear cut/simplistic?

henryporter · 12-07-2019 6:48am

dellas1979 wrote: »

If he is RIAI registered

That's a question for the OP - is this an 'Architect' or an Architect

mloc123 · 12-07-2019 1:26pm

JoeA3 wrote: »

He's largely correct in that regard. The planners tend to favour contemporary styles now with minimal fussy details. Mock-georgian style and/or large big blocky "deep plan" designs with over bearing roofs are frowned on. Have a look for one of the "rural design guides" on the county council websites. Cork have a good one here: https://www.corkcoco.ie/sites/default/files/2017-05/planning%20enquirer.pdf

That said, I still see mock Georgian monstrosities getting granted planning so who knows...

Cork coco guide is very interesting. Hopefully we don't see more McMansions

Teach30 · 12-07-2019 4:22pm

henryporter wrote: »

That's a question for the OP - is this an 'Architect' or an Architect

He’s the real deal alright. I checked the register.

JoeA3 · 12-07-2019 5:37pm

mloc123 wrote: »

Cork coco guide is very interesting. Hopefully we don't see more McMansions

Still seem to get built all around me tbh, so I really don’t think the planners are very consistent on implementing their own guidelines.

dellas1979 · 12-07-2019 10:50pm

Teach30 wrote: »

He’s the real deal alright. I checked the register.

Ring the RIAI and they will explain to you what he is bound by by their rules (as he is registered).

It is not the hypocratic oath league obvs, but there are rules they have to abide by. Even google RIAI architect/client contract (I have one printed out beside me here).

I scoped all this out before working with architect - well, my guy was very transparent and gave me a copy. But I did ring the RIAI before going ahead. It's a lot of money - I wanted to to sure.

dellas1979 · 12-07-2019 10:58pm

DOCARCH wrote: »

I am not aware of that one! Not sure it's that clear cut/simplistic?

4. RIAI Contracts

Once you have identified your architect and agreed to engage them for your project, a contract is drawn up. The RIAI publishes a range of agreements for use by client and architect, which are suited to projects of varying complexity and explain the scope of the services available to the client. Your architect will advise on the most appropriate contract to use. Agreements for other types of projects are also available and examples of the front page of these contracts can be downloaded:

https://www.riai.ie/consumer_services/working_with_an_architect_-_larger_projects/appointing_an_architect/#04

If you dont have one OP, the RIAI will skin him alive if he didnt provide you (the client) with rules/contract.

Teach30 · 30-07-2019 6:54pm

Just to update..
Finally Met with architect last week and we were much more prepared with questions and ideas as to what we wanted to achieve. He gave us a lot more attention and went through each part of the build with us for over an hour which helped to put me at ease.

Received another drawing the following day (and yes we paid him as it was much improved..!)

I still have a few more questions I need answered before we meet again next week and I’m hoping someone here might help.

Do we have to have a draught lobby? It’s it part of the NZeb regulations being introduced?
Are flat roof draught lobbies a nightmare?
Are feature windows you can’t open for ventilation good or bad idea? They wouldn’t be my choice but partner loves them.

Any advice appreciated!

sydthebeat · 30-07-2019 7:32pm

You don't have to have a draught lobby, but they are a good idea if the design allows

Not every window needs to open.
Again, if there is cross ventilation available, then it's a good idea for passive cooling.

looksee · 30-07-2019 7:45pm

What is the point of having another set of drawings if you have not established with him what you want and what his thinking is? You need to sit down with him with the plan in front of you and scribble changes on it till you are satisfied. Then he can draw up another set of plans. But tbh he does not sound co-operative or as if he is that interested, cut your losses and gain from the experience.

I know you have spent 1500 but in terms of the final house this is not a lot. I can promise you by the time you have gone another couple of phases you will be thinking in thousands!

Teach30 · 30-07-2019 7:58pm

looksee wrote: »

What is the point of having another set of drawings if you have not established with him what you want and what his thinking is? You need to sit down with him with the plan in front of you and scribble changes on it till you are satisfied. Then he can draw up another set of plans. But tbh he does not sound co-operative or as if he is that interested, cut your losses and gain from the experience.

I know you have spent 1500 but in terms of the final house this is not a lot. I can promise you by the time you have gone another couple of phases you will be thinking in thousands!

I might not have made it very clear in my last post, but yea that’s what he did. We discussed the changes and then he sent on the new drawings.

There’s now a draught lobby which I’m unsure I need, or is it mandatory under the new regulations coming into effect in November?

Also looking at pros and cons of having long feature windows you can’t access - they look nice but their not very practical when you can’t clean them very easily or open them for ventilation imo...

Metric Tensor · 31-07-2019 3:14pm

Teach30 wrote: »

There’s now a draught lobby which I’m unsure I need, or is it mandatory under the new regulations coming into effect in November?

Not mandatory, but helpful.

Architect not listening to our needs

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