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Dublin - BusConnects

1686971737476

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭specialbyte


    These folks are total chancers. Here's their submission to ABP: https://www.pleanala.ie/publicaccess/Observation/313182/ABP-313182-22%20-%20Observations%20-%20Anna%20Hofheinz%20&%20Others.pdf?r=806958385995

    In the section complaining how the bus stop will ruin the architectural heirtage of their cottages they write:

    The NTA claims that a bus shelter was committed out of courtesy to the residents. While we agree that it would not be acceptable for any of the properties on Artane Cottages Lower to have a bus shelter located within 3m of their front windows

    So the residents argue against a bus stop shelter at that location. But in their online petition they complain about the lack of shelter:

    These are proposed to be replaced by a single bus stop outside Artane Cottages Lower, on a narrow footpath with no room for a bus shelter.

    From the Irish Times article:

    but are opposed to the removal of two existing bus stops with shelters on the Malahide Road and their replacement with one unprotected stop.

    So they are happy that there isn't a bus shelter in the submission to ABP and now that the bus stop is without a shelter that's a key part of their complains.

    You can read the NTA's response to their submission here pages 56-6: https://www.pleanala.ie/publicaccess/Responses/313182/NTA%20-%20Response%20to%20ABP%20Submissions%20-%20July%2022.pdf?r=660570

    From the very first public meetings this crowd have always complained about the loss of the 3.5m wide footpath outside their houses where they currently illegally park their cars. I think everything else is just smoke and mirrors round this as their real complaint.

    They touch on this in the end of their submission to ABP:

    4.3 proposed access to residential parking

    Clarification is required as to the proposed access to residential parking for Artane Cottages Lower. Vehicular access to the rear lane is primarily via the southern gate between nos. 3 and 4 Artane Cottages Lower. The manual gate at this location requires any vehicle looking to access the rear lane to pull up on the footpath in order to open the rate, with a risk of obstruction to the proposed cycle and bus lane. Therefore, most residents parking currently is via informal parking on the footpath. This arrangement needs to be formalised either into residents permit parking (1 space per house, with planted areas in between) or into improvements to the access to the rear lane during the implementation phase, e.g. via motorised gate.

    Likewise, the NTA must undertake to not install any bollards between the cycle path and the bus lane outside Artane Cottages Lower, as this interferes with short-term deliveries and maintenance access to the properties.

    So they want to formalise their illegal footpath parking, get better access to their rear lane (fine) but also don't want any bollards out front that would prevent them from continuing to illegally park in the cycle lane / footpath. Like I said: chancers.

    I hope the High Court tells them to get lost.



  • Registered Users Posts: 630 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    It's obvious the residents of the cottages have shot themselves in the foot on this one. I can't imagine the other residents in the area will be happy that two sheltered stops will be consolidated into one unsheltered stop. Definitely a degradation of service for those.

    I do think it sets a bad precedent though. They've given in to a very small number of residents, to the detriment of the entire local area. I'd be pretty pssd off if I lived nearby.

    At this stage, the cottages should just push for a compromise and get a shelter stop. Otherwise people will be sitting and leaning on their windows all day long waiting for buses. Can't see a JR going anywhere on this one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,935 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The Belfield/Blackrock CBC has now been approved by ABP.

    https://www.pleanala.ie/en-ie/case/313509

    That’s 4 out of 12 approved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,762 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    The glaciers are receding faster from climate change than APB are getting through these planning approvals.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,935 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The CBCs are coming at a fairly regular pace now.

    Given that only a certain number can be in construction at any one time, I’d not be too concerned.



  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Bsharp


    Their sequential construction is proposed spatially to minimise disruption on key corridors into the city, so we do need enough approved to be able to achieve what was set out in the EIAR. Hopefully the clongriffin challenge is quashed so clongriffin, Liffey valley and belfield could proceed together from the outset, they're well spaced out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,542 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    That's great news about the Blackrock-Belfield corridor getting approval.

    However; I see on the ABP website that it has been granted with conditions.

    What are the conditions attached to this project?



  • Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭specialbyte


    Everything is granted with conditions. For example, condition 1 starts as "The proposed development shall be carried out and completed in accordance with the plans and particulars lodged with the application, exception as may otherwise be required to in order with the following conditions", which is the boilerplate condition that ABP and all local councils apply to every single grant of planning permission.

    You can read all of the conditions in the Order document here (starts at page 13): https://www.pleanala.ie/anbordpleanala/media/abp/cases/orders/313/d313509.pdf?r=098382064052

    There are no surprising conditions in there at all. Everything is pretty standard stuff. Condition 4 makes super super minor alterations to the plans like removing advertising from some bus shelters, removing trees in a heirtage area and adding a yellow box for Blackrock College, which are all minor additions in response to plannning submissions.

    The conditions are near identical to what the Inspector recommended in their report. The board decided not to accept one of the conditions recommended by the inspector and you can see the commentary on that at the top of page 13 of the PDF I linked.



  • Registered Users Posts: 341 ✭✭GusherING


    We are now 2 months away from local elections. Wonder if we will see a slight pause in further orders being finalised so they don't become politicised by local authority politics.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    4 granted now, all spaced out, enough to tender for construction surely.



  • Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭specialbyte


    There is still judicial review (JR) to pass for 3/4 approved projects.

    CBC7 Liffey Valley to City was approved and the timeframe for submitting a JR (8 weeks) has passed without any applications to the high court.

    CBC1 Clongriffin is the subject of a potential judicial review. We'll see if the High Court thinks the Artane Cottages crowd have an argument worth going to a full trial.

    CBC3/4 Ballymun/Finglas to city was only approved on 28th February 2024. So it will be end of April or there abouts when the JR timeframe ends. CBC14/15 Blackrock/UCD to City was only approved 27th March 2024, so we're looking at the end of May for that one

    Good news is that surveying crews for the detailed design have been out all along the CBC7 route. The detailed design is definitely progressing along that corridor so hopefully we'll see a construction tender ASAP.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I seen surveyors out on the junction of emmet and tyrconnel road yesterday. The whole JR thing is a complete joke ontop of an already tedius planning 'system'.

    I see IE applied for RO to get some level crossings closed on the Cork line to up the line speed, three whole years ago, they got an oral hearing in September 2023 and still have no decision. Three whole years to just get planning to close 4 rural level crossings is nothing short of a shambles. We cannot continue to run a state this way, it will collapse. We have an historic infrastructure deficit and moving at this pace will only see us deteriorate in comparison to the developed world.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,045 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The process has already started to establish a framework of contractors to who will tender for the corridors.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    That particular case has been mentioned here many times. I don't know what the big barrier is but there must be some complex land dispute because the small size of the project versus the time taken is an outlier even for the Bord's usual standards.



  • Registered Users Posts: 266 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    Irish public administration moving at top speed!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,533 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The framework approach makes sense here.

    Public procurement rules are EU wide (thanks to those naughty Italians)

    Nothing holds up a process more than a judicial review by some aggreived party claiming that the procedures were not followed, so i's have to be dotted and t's crossed.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,045 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    It's also worth noting that the framework will be established on the basis of tendering for the first corridor so it doesn't delay that but speeds up the tender process for all subsequent corridors.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,533 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Exactly, that is why the framework approach makes the best sense.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    News on the JR, in which it seems that the judge and the NTA are aware of the importance of the case.

    Normally an application for a JR is done solely with the applicant, in this case Anne Kelly (who is representing herself so far), but the judge directed her to inform the NTA before applying. This has allowed the NTA to ask the judge to refuse permission for the JR.

    Here's the guts of the case that she is putting forward:

    Among Ms Kelly’s allegations is that the NTA did not follow proper procedures and failed to notify her and other affected residents of the proposed new bus stop arrangement.

    She claims detailed observations from residents were not properly considered by the NTA or An Bord Pleanála.

    She alleges the proposed bus stop was a late-stage design change and is the only stop in the BusConnects scheme that would be in front of houses without front gardens. There is insufficient footway to accommodate the stop and residents would experience reduced enjoyment of their properties, she claims.

    I am relieved that it is so bad, worse than I had suspected.

    The fact is that there has been several lengthy consultations on this route, including leaflet drops and adverts all over the place. No judge could seriously consider "they didn't tell me about it" as a legitimate excuse on this, it would make a mockery of the extensive consultation that's been done, and would set a terrible precedent going forward.

    Her second point is basically "I don't like that they didn't do exactly what I wanted", which is again, not what consultations or the planning process are about.

    Her final point makes zero sense, the bus stop is clearly in the same location as it was in the draft plan, back in 2020, so it's not a late change. Privacy and rights are always a bit more difficult, but the fact of the matter is that it is public property outside her house, and this bus stop really needs to be here.

    The fact that the judge told her to inform the NTA may mean nothing, but it may also be significant. It's very rare at this point in a JR application. Perhaps he suspects that her application is so weak as to be pointless. It'd be great to get this knocked on the head at such an early stage, it'd set the tone for all future attempts at a JR on these plans.

    Hearing scheduled for the 4th of June.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,045 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Representing herself would suggest that she might not have the money to fight it all the way (few individuals would have that kind of money available and few of those that do would be willing to blow it like this). Seems pointless tbh, I doubt any real concessions can be made at this stage with planning approved.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 934 ✭✭✭alentejo


    Dublin City Centre is in chaos this morning with road closures in and around Kildare Street and Merrion Sq. I suspect the whole bus schedule for the morning is knocked out of kilter.

    I do think traffic planners need to make the city more resilient and if one or two streets are closed, the public transport network does not shudder to a halt. For example, I have seen a bus breakdown right outside Trinity College on College Green and 40 plus buses were stranded on College Street, D'Olier street etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,113 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    I was wondering why the traffic was so bad (as I cycled past it). Blame Simon Harris!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,533 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Blame the nutjob 'protesters' from last year.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Yes, guards were in a tough spot, close the street and look heavy handed, or allow a protest to go ahead and look like complete idiots if it TDs get assaulted again like last year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 855 ✭✭✭corm500


    I know I'm late to the party here, but can someone explain BusConnects to me in simple terms? Is it not just a bus lane?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    The infrastructure improvements are considerably more significant that just a bus lane (in the sense of paint on a road) with bus priority traffic lights, major reconfiguring of various roads (including dedicated cycle lanes, narrowing/widening in places, kerbing changes) but the infrastructure changes are almost secondary to the rejigging of the route network, much of which has already happened. Its all under the one plan.



  • Registered Users Posts: 630 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    Don't forget utilities upgrades. The C2CC is taking so long because they're upgrading water mains and other utilities. The same will likely apply to all other routes, especially the sections closest to the city.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    No, much more then just that. it is an umbrella for a whole range of bus improvement projects. It includes:

    • Network changes, the launch of brand new routes like the N4, N2, O route, 24/7 routes, but also the reorganisation and renaming of existing routes to make them easier to use and reduce bunching between routes.
    • New ticket fare structure like the 90 minute ticket
    • Next gen ticketing, new ticket machines that will allow you to pay by phone or contactless debit/credit card
    • new bus stops and livery
    • New zero emission (battery) buses

    Then it also includes the Infrastructure side, which involves improving bus lanes and other bus infrastructure. This can also include major new bus hubs, with bus bays and large shelters, coffee shops etc.

    Some of this is also pretty major work, including widening bridges, buying gardens and houses to make more space for bus lanes etc.

    Some places will get bus gates, which basically means only buses can pass through that road, no cars.

    Many of the routes will get much nicer big bus stops and shelters.

    Also all the bus corridors will be getting high quality segregated cycle lanes. It is as much about bike lanes as bus lanes.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Will bus lanes have utilities diverted from under them as part of BusConnects? This would make it much easier and cheaper to convert them to Luas lines in future.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,762 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Surely the most important part of bus connects is the infrastructure though.
    The networks redesign will only come Into its own because of the infrastructure upgrades imo.

    Post edited by tom1ie on


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I wouldn't necessarily agree. The infrastructure doesn't give you 24/7 routes or orbitals routes. Like you could have the best bus lanes in the world, but that isn't much use to you if you'd like to get a bus at 2am, but there are no 24/7 routes.

    Also the €2 90 minute ticket or 50% off for young people are game changers in affordability, ease of use/understanding and importantly ease of transfer between routes and services.

    Where the infrastructure side comes in really is the more traditional core radial routes into town. It is needed to enhance those and make the most of those routes.

    To be honest I'm somewhat wary of how much difference the infrastructure side will actually make. It will definitely be a big deal for bikes and I'm certain it will make some buses faster, but I feel that extra capacity will almost immediately be used up as we are already not too far off the maximum you can get out of buses and I suspect almost the minute the project finishes, we will start planning to convert many of these routes to Luas lines!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,762 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    I disagree.
    The bus service is there to get you to your destination reliably and efficiently when you need it.
    This generally coincides with, when lots of people are using the road which means the bus ends up stuck in traffic.
    The QBCs are absolutely fundamental to guaranteeing journey times and frequencies which are the cornerstones of a top class or at least a working bus service.
    By the way there’s no point building all these QBCs without ANPR enforcement either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,372 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    That is an interesting question to which I don't know the answer.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The bus service is there to get you to your destination reliably and efficiently 

    Well in the first place, the bus needs to actually take you to your destination!

    Previously to go to my office, I’d have to get a bus into town and then back out, it would take well over an hour for what is a 30 minute walk! Complete rubbish. Now the N4 can take me almost directly from my home to my office, game changer.

    The Swords Road is already a pretty excellent QBC, the bike lanes are welcome, but I see BusConnects making very little difference on the Swords Road corridor, the previous work at the Cat & Cage fixed the only major bottleneck.

    Of course it will be more beneficial on other corridors, in particular the bus gates. But I do think people need to be realistic as to how much difference it will make. Yes it will likely improve journey times and maybe add some capacity, like 20% faster and more capacity, sure, but don’t be expecting it to double capacity or anything like that. It will be evolutionary rather than revolutionary.

    It is clear now that it was a big mistake that they dropped BRT/Swiftway plan, rather then integrating it into BusConnects and I think there is now a recognition amongst planners about the limitations of how much you can do with buses and that they are already considering converting some of the core bus lanes to Luas lines before the BusConnects infrastructure even starts!

    For me the main benefit was turning the bus service from something you’d expect in the 1950’s into a proper system you’d expect a modern European capital city to have.

    DB was somewhat okay getting you into and out of town at peak hours for work, but useless at anything else, want to go somewhere other then the city center, travel at night, weekends etc. it sucked. BusConnects is fixing all that and giving us a service where you really don’t need a car and can get around the city at any time.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/dublin/2024/05/12/cyclists-are-just-lumped-in-with-general-traffic-change-is-coming-for-dublins-dangerous-junctions/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Eurovision%3A%20Switzerland%20s%20Nemo%20wins%202024%20competition%20as%20Ireland%20s%20Bambie%20Thug%20finishes%20sixth&utm_campaign=morning_briefing_digest


    «Construction on the first of the corridors is to start early next year, he says, with the first completed in 2027.

    “The intention is to have at least two of the schemes under construction at the start of next year, with the next two schemes to follow quite quickly after that,” says Creegan. “Then, as they get finished, replace them with another scheme.”

    The corridors will be completed on an incremental basis, so cyclists will be able to use sections as they are finished, he says.

    “People will start to see construction work – diggers on the ground early next year. It has taken a while to get here but we’re now moving from paper to shovel.”»



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Great news but something serious needs to be done to stop this happening again. We cannot continue as a country in our present state, taking 7 years to go from project launch to construction for a bus lane. We have a long standing infrastructure deficit and we can't close the gap between us and developed countries by building infrastructure at 25% the speed of our competitors.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭gjim


    It is clear now that it was a big mistake that they dropped BRT/Swiftway plan, rather then integrating it into BusConnects and I think there is now a recognition amongst planners about the limitations of how much you can do with buses and that they are already considering converting some of the core bus lanes to Luas lines before the BusConnects infrastructure even starts!

    I've been banging on this drum here for years that for providing high-frequency service to a regular schedule, the double decker bus is a technological cul-de-sac. For long suburban and commuter town trips and as a novelty tourist attraction, double deckers work reasonably well (ignoring modern accessibility regulations).

    But the mathematics and simulations have been done, and it's simply impossible to prevent bunching if the dwell time is a function of the number of passengers alighting or boarding - this is almost a basic physical law in terms of transport planning. Double-decker buses - with the majority of passengers having to file up and down a single flight of stairs will ALWAYS have this issue no matter how many doors you add. Thus as the frequency increases, a clockface timetable or any guarantee of regularity will be impossible. Note that this result holds even if the double decker buses had completely segregated alignments so no amount of bus gates, etc. can solve this issue.

    BusConnects should have considered changing format to single-deck multi-door buses for some of the busiest spines. This format of commuter bus comprise 99% of the commuter buses used globally and are proven to be capable of providing high and regular frequency services. Where I live in Europe at the moment, there are two bus routes on the next block served by articulated single decker buses - we're miles from the end of the line and yet, every 10 minutes to a clock face timetable, a bus arrives. There's actually no need even for live information systems because the bus format allows for predictable dwell times and so predictable scheduling for the entire route.

    I wouldn't get rid of the double decker format completely - they are fine for longer distance outer suburban routes and think slowly evolving towards a more modern bus format would make more sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,935 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    As I have posted before, with significant numbers of people in Dublin facing a journey time of an hour or more each way on a bus, double decks allow far more of them the comfort of a seat.

    Forcing them to stand for that length of time on articulated buses would not be an improvement and frankly I suspect would drive many them back to their cars, regardless of the traffic.

    Where journey times are of that magnitude, and that is the case for many commuters, a seat is important. Perhaps when the infrastructure allows for significantly improved journey times, then it may be an option.

    There are tri axle double decks available too which have two staircases - that is something that should have been explored by the NTA. They replaced the existing tri-axle buses with smaller standard sized buses.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭gjim


    Sure, I've said that for long trips with infrequent stops, double deckers can have a role. All formats have a role - coaches for very long distances with very infrequent stops and multi-door single-decker buses for frequent stopping services and shorter average journeys. Double deckers sit somewhere in the middle of these two.

    And are just not the right tool for the job if you want a high-frequency, regularly stopping service operating to a regular schedule. You'd never try to provide such a service using coach format vehicles - the idea is so obviously silly - but many of the reasons you wouldn't apply to double deckers also.

    If Dublin were designing a bus system from scratch, there's no way you'd pick double-deckers to provide 100% of the services.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Hard disagree, most people have to stand on the Luas at peak times (it represents the majority of the capacity of Luas) and that covers long distances and yet Luas is the most popular form of public transport in Ireland.

    People also stand on DART or many people end up standing on the lower deck of double decker buses, often even for long journeys (and weirdly even when seats free upstairs).

    Also I'd argue if you routes are so long and take so long, that your public transport system is fundamentally broken and it is a clear sign it needs to be fixed.

    As gjim says, you could of course continue to use double deckers for longer routes. Swiftway/BRT project was only going to be three of the core cross city routes and the ones that had the best infrastructure that would have made for speedy journey tiems and weren't particularly long.

    Having said that, I'd say our needs are now even beyond the capacity of BRT and most of those routes will eventually end up as Luas routes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,935 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The problem is that the journeys that I’m referring to are not long trips distance wise.

    But in practice, anyone travelling from points all over the city such as Sallynoggin, Rathfarnham, Knocklyon, Tallaght, Lucan, Blanchardstown, Swords etc. are faced with journey times of one hour or more because of the poor infrastructure and lack of priority.

    Expecting them to stand on a bus for that length of time is not in my view an improvement. Double decks afford these people a seat for most of the journey leaving standees for the shorter trips.

    As I said, once the journey times reduce when the infrastructure is in place and priority measures are actually enforced then perhaps your idea could be more palatable.

    But right now a large number of journeys that should be far faster are taking over an hour because of the lack of priority, and I don’t resile from my view that double deck buses offer those people a significant improvement in comfort for that extended journey time until such time as journey times can be improved on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,542 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    Having many types of buses on offer to provide bus services to people who both live and work in Dublin does sound like a reasonably good idea in theory. However the problem is that the NTA and the bus operators like Dublin Bus & Go Ahead Ireland have to be smart in how they use their fleet for their routes in a proper way. They can't just allocate a bus to passengers when the local infrastructure offers them a lot of obstacles in their path when the bus is trying to provide that useful and efficient service.

    One example that I can provide here (which maybe an outlier in fact) is in Blackrock Village & the Dart Station.

    If you were driving the bus routes down to Blackrock Dart Station; the only bus that would be suitable for that location would be a mini-bus & a standard twin axle single deck/double deck bus. You wouldn't be able to fit a bendy bus or a tri-axle single deck bus or a coach down there at all as the bus terminus at the Dart Station is plonked in the middle of the access road that heads down into the car park of the station.

    Since Covid came to us in 2020; the new cycle lane that was built in Blackrock Village is actually the main reason in restricting what type of bus can go down to either pick up or drop off bus passengers at the Dart Station.

    If you are driving down to the Dart Station down along Rock Hill; which is the road going down to Blackrock Village near the traffic lights at Frascati Centre & Blackrock Village Centre; the car/bus traffic lane is located on the left hand side of that road with the bike lane being down on the right hand side.

    When the bus gets to the traffic lights down to the station; it does not have a lot space to do a proper left turn. It is largely done in a very tight and very narrow fashion.

    If the council in Dún Laoghaire had an proposal to switch the regular traffic lane and the bike lane from Rock Hill down to Central Cafe to having the bike lane on the left hand side and the general traffic lane on the right hand side of the road; I am not sure if that would make more sense. It would have helped the bus a lot of room to breathe to do a proper left turn to head down to the station.

    I am not sure if there are any other examples from other posters here in where the local infrastructure currently provides obstacles to bus services offering efficient services in their own part of Dublin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,342 ✭✭✭markpb


    With all due respect, you can’t compare standing on a train or tram with standing on the bus. The two are not the same - buses change their rate and direction of speed far more often than trains or trams and they take corners with sharper angles. This is far more uncomfortable to stand the same length trip on a train.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,113 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    properly designed BRT should be more akin to a tram.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭gjim


    The alternative to the double decker bus in Dublin is not everyone standing for an hour. This is a not a genuine argument.

    The average trip time on a bus in Dublin is around 22min (according to google), suggesting that less than 10% of Dublin bus trips last an hour or more. There are far more 10 minute trips than 1 hour ones. We should not be designing a system for 10% case or else, like I suggest, for long journeys/infrequent stops, double deckers are probably fine. They are not fine in the role of providing high capacity high frequency, "spines" for the system.

    It's particularly disingenuous to suggest that everyone stands on single deckers - typical European artic bus has around 50 seats, less than 70+ on a double decker but they have FAR more accessible seating than a double decker. In Dublin, most of the seats (upstairs) are effectively reserved for the young, able-bodied and those NOT with of shopping, kids, etc.

    You won't see a double decker bus anywhere in Europe used in the role that we're trying to use them in Dublin - many had fleets of double deckers in the past (until the 1950s they were a urban bus dominant format) but abandoned them in droves once better options appeared. Trying to use double deckers to service a high capacity, frequent stopping service makes about as much sense as using steam locos for a metro-system - the world has moved on.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    And yet people stand on double deckers every day!

    Also as loyatemu says above, good quality BRT's tend to be much more stable, not far off a Luas. Specially as these days they would be EV BRT's and have lots of batteries, which adds a lot of weight and stability.

    Also no one is saying replace every double decker with a BRT! The Swiftway plan identified three core routes that were going to be converted to BRT operation, like Swords to the city. These routes were going to be completely upgraded to handle BRT's, with extensive upgrades to the road infrastructure, bus stops, Luas style off bus ticketing, etc. This would have greatly reduced sharp angles, etc.

    Lets be honest, a Swords road BRT would have feck all sharp corners, it is basically a straight shot down the M1 and Swords Road. The only sharp turn would be the one onto Gardiner Street.

    To be honest, I suspect Swiftway got cancelled, was because they were worried the Swords Road one would be too successful and might impact Metrolink.

    Now, I'd say we will be Luasifiying these routes in future rather then BRT.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,045 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Part of the reason for the long journey times is the dwell times associated with doubledeckers and driver interactions. Move to multi-door artics and remove ticket purchase from driver and the issue of people standing for long periods gets largely resolved.



  • Registered Users Posts: 266 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    Properly designed BRT should be a tram. Belfast's Glider is a case in point. Gets stuck in traffic, uncomfortable to stand or get up in while moving. Nowhere near the capacity of a tram either. It looks a bit trammy though and that was the important thing..



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Glider is only 18m long, which is pretty short and light (it is Diesel) for a BRT.

    While it would require a change in the law in Ireland (current limit is 18m), many countries use 24m BRT's, which when combined with batteries make them much more stable.

    Then you have the new 30m long laser guided battery BRT's (they call them ART) that are starting appearing in Asia. You should watch a video of people riding in them, it is remarkably smooth and Luas like.

    As for "getting stuck in traffic" that is down to the design of the infrastructure and enforcement. You can just as easily have cars all over a tram line blocking trams without appropriate measures.

    Don't get me wrong I suspect we will end up getting Luas on most of these routes, but I wouldn't rule out BRT completely, specially this new ART thing and I still think it was a a massive mistake not going ahead with Swiftway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭mikeybhoy


    Cherrywood or Saggart to the cc is a similar distance and journey time to all the trips you've outlined yet I never hear of this being an issue on the Luas.



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