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Engine spec from insurance company different than log book

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    #32
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,944 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    Del2005 wrote: »
    Since it's 80bhp on the VLC get onto the insurance ombudsman. Their system is wrong and you've been over charged for years, Shannon or revenue have nothing to do with it as the vehicle is correctly registered.

    Some people think that the Ombudsman's office is like ringing Joe Duffy. They will not get involved in pricing by an insurer. A premium is offered on the risk presented and if it is accepted, that's the end of the matter. You do, of course, have a right to make your case to the insurer through their complaints procedure, but if you get nowhere, your only option is to leave at renewal date. Your issue is with the vehicle and it's documents. Resolve that and insurers will reflect the correct situation in their quotations


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    #33
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Eggs For Dinner wrote: »
    You do, of course, have a right to make your case to the insurer through their complaints procedure, but if you get nowhere, your only option is to leave at renewal date.

    At the moment, his only 'option' is to get rid of the car. Because every insurer is looking at the same database. Which is overstaing the power of his car.
    Eggs For Dinner wrote: »
    Your issue is with the vehicle and it's documents. Resolve that and insurers will reflect the correct situation in their quotations

    Disagree, the problem is with the database. The vehicle's document (the VLC) correctly states his car's power.

    You work in the business.... do insurers each have a live link to Shannon to check vehicles by reg. no? Or do they do a bulk import to a database server (managed by an insurance consortium) and periodically update it with new registrations?


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    #34
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,944 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    coylemj wrote: »
    At the moment, his only 'option' is to get rid of the car. Because every insurer is looking at the same database. Which is overstaing the power of his car.



    Disagree, the problem is with the database. The vehicle's document (the VLC) correctly states his car's power.

    You work in the business.... do insurers each have a live link to Shannon to check vehicles by reg. no? Or do they do a bulk import to a database server (managed by an insurance consortium) and periodically update it with new registrations?

    I've no idea what link insurers have to Shannon. I work in the technical policy wording side of things. My point is that even if an insurer has incorrectly classed any vehicle for rating purposes, that's their own business. You don't have to accept their offer. You can raise the issue with them, but if they won't budge, that's the end of the matter. There is nothing to stop an insurer charging 10 times the premium for a basic Ford Fiesta compared to the highest spec Fiesta


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    #35
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Eggs For Dinner wrote: »
    My point is that even if an insurer has incorrectly classed any vehicle for rating purposes, that's their own business. You don't have to accept their offer. You can raise the issue with them, but if they won't budge, that's the end of the matter.

    That’s a pretty fatalistic (‘take it or leave it’) response. I tried the reg. of my 2007 Golf GT 170 (which I sold in 2010) on Mick’s Garage, AIG and Axa and it’s now showing as a 170 bhp - my insurers always told me it was a 140 bhp - so the guy who bought it from me or a subsequent owner got the database corrected.

    Every year when I was renewing, I reminded my insurer that it was a 170, not a 140 and they accepted my word. Hardly surprising when they were charging me more. But the OP is unable to do this in reverse.

    Perhaps you could ask your colleagues at work how someone can get the database updated? The OP has a VLC which is at odds with what comes up on the screen when an insurance agent is giving him a quote.


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    #36
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,944 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    I can't keep repeating myself. The problem is with whoever incorrectly entered the details on the database the insurers use, it's not an issue the insurer can be arsed fixing


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    #37
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    OP, can you put your registration number into Mick's Garage and see if your model details are correct.

    If they are, your problem is that the insurance business has a database with bad data. Good luck with getting that fixed (see previous post) and Shannon can't help you. If Mick's Garage says that you have a 140 bhp model, your problem is with Shannon.


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    #38
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,907 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Eggs For Dinner wrote: »
    I can't keep repeating myself. The problem is with whoever incorrectly entered the details on the database the insurers use, it's not an issue the insurer can be arsed fixing

    The problem is entirely on the insurance companies because their database is incorrect. The vehicle is registered correctly on the VLC so the insurers database is wrong and it's up to them to fix it or get whoever entered the details to fix it. How can Shannon or Revenue fix the an issue when their systems have the correct information?

    I can't see anything here saying that you can't contact the regulator. The OP has a problem, their vehicle is incorrect on the insurance database, and the insurance companies aren't willing to fix it.


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    #39
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Del2005 wrote: »
    The problem is entirely on the insurance companies because their database is incorrect. The vehicle is registered correctly on the VLC so the insurers database is wrong and it's up to them to fix it or get whoever entered the details to fix it. How can Shannon or Revenue fix the an issue when their systems have the correct information?

    We don't know if Shannon has the correct data. The OP could try his registration on a non-insurance website like Mick's Garage, that will tell him what's in the Shannon database. I wouldn't go knocking on the insurance regulator's door until that was established.

    Shannon doesn't care if the OP's car is 80, 140 or 170 bhp because they all have the same rate of annual tax. Whereas, for obvious reasons, the insurance companies do care. So I'd be inclined to guess that Shannon is the source of the error.


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    #40
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,636 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    A friend of mine got a brand new car some time ago. The trim level was incorrectly specified on the VLC and had it been left as was the car would have been worth less when it is moved on eventually.

    The answer there was to get the dealer send back the incorrect VLC to Shannon and have them issue a corrected one. That was done and all was well.

    I suspect that this case is exactly the same.

    Insurance Co's, the Ombudsman, and indeed the Reverse Vampires have no part in any of this. They'll just go with what they are told.


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    #41
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    A friend of mine got a brand new car some time ago. The trim level was incorrectly specified on the VLC and had it been left as was the car would have been worth less when it is moved on eventually.

    The answer there was to get the dealer send back the incorrect VLC to Shannon and have them issue a corrected one. That was done and all was well.

    I suspect that this case is exactly the same.

    OP told us the VLC shows the correct specs (post #1) .....
    Pixelbastardo wrote: »
    Log book shows all correct specs, reg, etc. Its a proper pain in the arse.

    I just went back through his posts and noticed this….
    Pixelbastardo wrote: »
    But always wrong engine when talking to insurance or ordering a part using the reg sometimes get the wrong part..

    the last part suggests that the fault lies with Shannon because it means that the error is not confined to a database being used by insurers. Revenue supplied Shannon with the correct data but they registered it as the wrong model, they treated every petrol Golf GT from 07 and 08 as 140 bhp. Exactly what they did with my 2007 Golf GT. Which a subsequent owner managed to get corrected.


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    #42
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,636 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    coylemj wrote: »
    OP told us the VLC shows the correct specs (post #1) .....

    The OP is wrong in that case. If the cars details were correctly input day 1 none of this would be happening.

    Strictly for what it's worth I suspect the engine code is wrong.


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    #43
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    The OP is wrong in that case. If the cars details were correctly input day 1 none of this would be happening.

    Strictly for what it's worth I suspect the engine code is wrong.

    He's not wrong, I had exactly the same problem with a petrol 2007 Golf GT. See post #31 above for my theory as to the cause.

    Mine was 170 bhp which (as with the OP) Shannon claimed was 140 bhp. The VLC showed the correct model and (125) kW rating but every year when I was renewing my insurance, I had to remind them that it was 170 and not 140. And I double-checked the schedule when they sent me the paperwork.

    One of the subsequent owners has had it corrected - I did a dummy quote on AIG and Axa a few days go and I entered the reg. on Mick's Garage and it's now showing everywhere as 170 bhp.


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    #44
    Pixelbastardo
    Registered Users Posts: 721 ✭✭✭Pixelbastardo


    coylemj wrote: »
    We don't know if Shannon has the correct data. The OP could try his registration on a non-insurance website like Mick's Garage, that will tell him what's in the Shannon database. I wouldn't go knocking on the insurance regulator's door until that was established.

    Shannon doesn't care if the OP's car is 80, 140 or 170 bhp because they all have the same rate of annual tax. Whereas, for obvious reasons, the insurance companies do care. So I'd be inclined to guess that Shannon is the source of the error.

    Just checked Micksgarage and its coming up as a standard "VW Golf MKv 1390cc. 80hp", But funny enough ordering parts earlier this year in 2 different local shops with the cars reg brought up the wrong engine (both times in the last few months).
    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    A friend of mine got a brand new car some time ago. The trim level was incorrectly specified on the VLC and had it been left as was the car would have been worth less when it is moved on eventually.

    The answer there was to get the dealer send back the incorrect VLC to Shannon and have them issue a corrected one. That was done and all was well.

    I suspect that this case is exactly the same.

    Insurance Co's, the Ombudsman, and indeed the Reverse Vampires have no part in any of this. They'll just go with what they are told.

    I contacted the dealership the car originated from last week and he said his database is showing proper details and that he cant do anything about it.
    coylemj wrote: »
    OP, can you put your registration number into Mick's Garage and see if your model details are correct.

    If they are, your problem is that the insurance business has a database with bad data. Good luck with getting that fixed (see previous post) and Shannon can't help you. If Mick's Garage says that you have a 140 bhp model, your problem is with Shannon.

    Micks is showing proper specs (although its saying regular golf mkv, not saying anything about GTS) but local shops databases are showing higher spec.

    Shannon got back to me saying,

    "I have checked out the details with our Operations Team. They have advised me to advise you that the make and model description we sent the insurance companies for your vehicle is as follows:

    Volkswagen Golf GT SP 1.4 80 BHP 5DR.

    We don’t know where the incorrect information originated from.

    This is an issue for your Insurance Company to rectify their records."
    Del2005 wrote: »
    Since it's 80bhp on the VLC get onto the insurance ombudsman. Their system is wrong and you've been over charged for years, Shannon or revenue have nothing to do with it as the vehicle is correctly registered.

    Its worth a try.
    coylemj wrote: »
    I don't the insurance ombudsman has a role to play here.

    If the OP goes to Mick's Garage to buy a pair of wiper blades and enters his reg. no., it will show the the incorrect model.

    I was in the same situation as the OP, I had a 2007 Golf GT Sport 170 and the insurance companies said it was a 140. What appears to happen is that the folk in Shannon classify all Golt GTs of that vintage as 140 bhp because they're all 1,400 c.c. which means that the annual tax is the same for all of them.

    So as far they were concerned, they were all the same. And they weren't bothered to create new models in their database for the 80 and 170 bhp models. When Revenue notified them of a new registration for a petrol Golf GT, it got registered in Shannon as a 140 by default because there was no other options. That's my theory. My GT 170 had 125 kW in the VLC so both the OP and I had the correct power recorded by revenue but Shannon registered both of us as a 140.

    Shannon has to fix the problem, it's nothing to do with the insurance ombudsman or the insurance business generally.

    Read reply from shannon above, they seem clueless too.


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    #45
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Pixelbastardo wrote: »
    Shannon got back to me saying,

    "I have checked out the details with our Operations Team. They have advised me to advise you that the make and model description we sent the insurance companies for your vehicle is as follows:

    Volkswagen Golf GT SP 1.4 80 BHP 5DR.

    We don’t know where the incorrect information originated from.

    This is an issue for your Insurance Company to rectify their records."

    Read reply from shannon above, they seem clueless too.

    Then it looks like the insurance companies have loaded the data from Shannon into a database which doesn't know about the GT 80 bhp model. So it's defaulted to the next model up the range. I bought my 170 GT in September 2007, it was only launched in May of that year so the insurance companies had it in their database as a 140 bhp.

    Could you go into an insurance company website for a quote and see what it shows? You can give a fictitious e-mail address and phone number, some of them only send the quote to the e-mail address but AIG and Axa gave me onscreen quotes a few days ago.


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    #46
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,636 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    coylemj wrote: »
    He's not wrong, I had exactly the same problem with a petrol 2007 Golf GT. See post #31 above for my theory as to the cause.

    Mine was 170 bhp which (as with the OP) Shannon claimed was 140 bhp. The VLC showed the correct model and (125) kW rating but every year when I was renewing my insurance, I had to remind them that it was 170 and not 140. And I double-checked the schedule when they sent me the paperwork.

    One of the subsequent owners has had it corrected - I did a dummy quote on AIG and Axa a few days go and I entered the reg. on Mick's Garage and it's now showing everywhere as 170 bhp.

    You given details (repeatedly) and you've said (again repeatedly) that you weren't able to resolve the issue, and that a subsequent owner did. So your theory may be correct, but equally may not be.

    I've mentioned a specific example together with the solution. No guesswork involved.


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    #47
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    I've mentioned a specific example together with the solution. No guesswork involved.

    How many times do we (OP and I, see posts #41 and #44) have to remind you....

    Your friend's VLC was in error. Whereas the OP's VLC is 100% correct. So the solution you're referring to (dealer sends incorrect VLC to Shannon, to get it corrected) has no applicability in this case.


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    #48
    athlone573
    Registered Users Posts: 726 ✭✭✭athlone573


    How to complain to a public service provider (Shannon) :

    https://www.ombudsman.ie/making-a-complaint/how-to-complain-to-a-public-service-provider/

    You might want to ask nicely a few times first.

    After reading the thread again it seems the problem is on the insurance company side so may be better to complain to one or more of the insurers to eventually go down the insurance ombudsman route.

    If anyone here knew how the systems were wired up it might help.


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    #49
    Pixelbastardo
    Registered Users Posts: 721 ✭✭✭Pixelbastardo


    Well an update from Shannon, since they have my correct details on their database and the insurers are saying otherwise i asked could they contact my insurer directly and see if they can clear it up, gave them my policy details etc, and they've let me know that they've actually contacted my insurers. now waiting on a response.. fair play to them lets see what happens.
    coylemj wrote: »
    Then it looks like the insurance companies have loaded the data from Shannon into a database which doesn't know about the GT 80 bhp model. So it's defaulted to the next model up the range. I bought my 170 GT in September 2007, it was only launched in May of that year so the insurance companies had it in their database as a 140 bhp.

    Could you go into an insurance company website for a quote and see what it shows? You can give a fictitious e-mail address and phone number, some of them only send the quote to the e-mail address but AIG and Axa gave me onscreen quotes a few days ago.

    Insurance quotes online, over phone, all show wrong engine size.
    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    You given details (repeatedly) and you've said (again repeatedly) that you weren't able to resolve the issue, and that a subsequent owner did. So your theory may be correct, but equally may not be.

    I've mentioned a specific example together with the solution. No guesswork involved.

    I replied to your post on the last page, i've alreay been in contact with the VW dealership the car was sold from (twice now) and everything shows correct on their end, and that the issue was nothing to do with them, etc.
    athlone573 wrote: »
    How to complain to a public service provider (Shannon) :

    https://www.ombudsman.ie/making-a-complaint/how-to-complain-to-a-public-service-provider/

    You might want to ask nicely a few times first.

    After reading the thread again it seems the problem is on the insurance company side so may be better to complain to one or more of the insurers to eventually go down the insurance ombudsman route.

    If anyone here knew how the systems were wired up it might help.

    Cheers


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