Rights that a tenant has if they have rented property for more than 10 years

dcasey73 · 02-06-2021 3:53pm #1

Hi all,

So I've rented out an apartment to someone for more than 10 years who I believe is responsible for significant damage caused to the property over the last year.

I'm wondering if I fix the damage, send a bill to the tenant and discover that the tenant wont pay what can I legally do? I've read that I can give them a 30 days "Notice with cause" to terminate the tenancy.

However I've also read on Citizen's Information that I need to give the tenant 224 days notice before I can kick them out. This is because they've been living in the accommodation for more than 10 years.

I'm confused at what I'm legally able to do in order for them to pay for the damage caused. Can I bring them to the small claims court or something along those lines?

Thanks

D3V!L · 02-06-2021 3:58pm

What is the significant damage?

dcasey73 · 02-06-2021 4:07pm

D3V!L wrote: »

What is the significant damage?

I'd rather not specify but it has to do with damage to the drywall among other things that I'm convinced has to do with negligence. The drywall will probably need replacing etc.

GerardKeating · 02-06-2021 4:10pm

dcasey73 wrote: »

convinced has to do with negligence. The drywall will probably need replacing etc.

What kind of Negligence, banging into the walls?

dcasey73 · 02-06-2021 4:13pm

GerardKeating wrote: »

What kind of Negligence, banging into the walls?

Again, I'd rather not specify but I'm not sure whether their negligence can be proved that's the thing. Have I no grounds to get them to pay for the damage unless I have explicit proof?

Kimbot · 02-06-2021 4:15pm

dcasey73 wrote: »

Again, I'd rather not specify but I'm not sure whether their negligence can be proved that's the thing. Have I no grounds to get them to pay for the damage unless I have explicit proof?

Without specifying nobody can really assist you.

It all depends on what the damage is etc and how you would go about the next steps so give us something to go on so we can help you out.

3DataModem · 02-06-2021 4:20pm

After 10 years a landlord has to have a high tolerance for wear and tear.

If you think they have left the slabs rot away due to damp etc, then they are not fulfilling their duties as a tenant and you can - in theory - give them summary notice.

HOWEVER they can challenge this; they are the ones living there after all and if they are OK with it, you don't really have cause for complaint until they move out, unless they are allowing the damage to seriously affect the property (e.g. they are obliged to get a leak fixed, and not leave it destroy the place).

It is a tough situation. Have you done an official inspection?

dcasey73 · 02-06-2021 4:23pm

Kimbot wrote: »

Without specifying nobody can really assist you.

It all depends on what the damage is etc and how you would go about the next steps so give us something to go on so we can help you out.

Okay, so the tenant consistently let damp into the room via the windows and not informing me of a broken vent which has caused the drywall nearby to rot significantly. There's windows upstairs and downstairs and they let the damp in almost as if they had left the windows open when it was raining. The rot has spread to the point of needing to get the drywall repaired and possibly having to fix structural issues with the framing that surrounds the windows.

I can't do a full inspection until after I get my second dose of the vaccine within the next month. The couple that's living there sent me photos and have claimed to only notice it until now.

Kimbot · 02-06-2021 4:28pm

When did you last inspect the property?
Did they report the damp to you? If so when was it first reported etc?

dcasey73 · 02-06-2021 4:31pm

Kimbot wrote: »

When did you last inspect the property?
Did they report the damp to you? If so when was it first reported etc?

They reported it to me last week but they claim they only noticed it now because they've been so busy with work.

I haven't inspected the property in about 3 years. Mostly because I had got on well with the tenant's up to this point.

kirving · 02-06-2021 4:34pm

What annual maintenance do you have carried out on the property?

dcasey73 · 02-06-2021 4:41pm

kirving wrote: »

What annual maintenance do you have carried out on the property?

To be honest there were no problems in the earlier years of the tenancy so I never really had to carry out any maintenance. I inspected it about three years ago and everything seemed okay.

jimmycrackcorm · 02-06-2021 4:42pm

I doubt you'll get very far claiming they deliberately caused this, it would be akin to flood damage from accidentally leaving a tap running.
Who has house insurance and is this covered?
Have you broached the subject with the tenants that you consider it their fault?
You'd really need a professional to evaluate the damage. It might not be that significant and covered by their deposit.

You have received 10 years' worth of rent from your tenants that haven't given you much of a headache, so I suggest you might want to consider this as part and parcel of property maintenance.

dcasey73 · 02-06-2021 4:44pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I doubt you'll get very far claiming they deliberately caused this, it would be akin to flood damage from accidentally leaving a tap running.
Who has house insurance and is this covered?
Have you broached the subject with the tenants that you consider it their fault?
You'd really need a professional to evaluate the damage. It might not be that significant and covered by their deposit.

You have received 10 years' worth of rent from your tenants that haven't given you much of a headache, so I suggest you might want to consider this as part and parcel of property maintenance.

I have made it very clear to them that I'm quite angry about it and that I think they are being dishonest. I'm not sure whether my insurance will cover it because of the circumstances.

But it's so obvious that they let this thing go. There's no way they could have discovered it all of a sudden.

con747 · 02-06-2021 4:56pm

In all fairness you did no inspections in 3 years and if the tenant did not bother you in 10 years over any issues and either took care of them or lived with them you saved a bit of money there unless they were major issues damaging the property. If it's just drywall damage and cosmetics it's not going to cost a fortune to fix it. Until you get an estimate you won't know though.

dcasey73 · 02-06-2021 5:06pm

con747 wrote: »

In all fairness you did no inspections in 3 years and if the tenant did not bother you in 10 years over any issues and either took care of them or lived with them you saved a bit of money there unless they were major issues damaging the property. If it's just drywall damage and cosmetics it's not going to cost a fortune to fix it. Until you get an estimate you won't know though.

Well that's the thing. I think the timber framing could be significantly rotted. Could I get them to pay for this by threatening to raise the rent in order to cover the costs?

coylemj · 02-06-2021 5:08pm

dcasey73 wrote: »

I have made it very clear to them that I'm quite angry about it and that I think they are being dishonest. I'm not sure whether my insurance will cover it because of the circumstances.

But it's so obvious that they let this thing go. There's no way they could have discovered it all of a sudden.

The last part is the killer for insurance. Anything that happens over time like a leak caused by the gradual deterioration of a shower seal or damage caused by damp is not covered in a domestic policy.

My (FBD) house policy has the following exclusion....

Any loss or damage arising from wear, tear, rust or corrosion, gradual loss in value or anything happening gradually, including damage caused by gradual water damage from faulty seals or grouting, the upkeep costs or normal decoration, mildew, rising damp, dry or wet rot, moth, vermin, insects, atmospheric or weather conditions.

dcasey73 · 02-06-2021 5:11pm

con747 wrote: »

In all fairness you did no inspections in 3 years and if the tenant did not bother you in 10 years over any issues and either took care of them or lived with them you saved a bit of money there unless they were major issues damaging the property. If it's just drywall damage and cosmetics it's not going to cost a fortune to fix it. Until you get an estimate you won't know though.

Well that's the thing. I believe that there could probably be structural damage caused also.

Could I threaten them with raising the rent in order to cover the costs? In other words "if you don't pay I will have to raise the rent significantly".

dcasey73 · 02-06-2021 5:13pm

coylemj wrote: »

The last part is the killer for insurance. Anything that happens over time like a leak caused by the gradual deterioration of a shower seal or damage caused by damp is not covered in a domestic policy.

My (FBD) house policy has the following exclusion....

Any loss or damage arising from wear, tear, rust or corrosion, gradual loss in value or anything happening gradually, including damage caused by gradual water damage from faulty seals or grouting, the upkeep costs or normal decoration, mildew, rising damp, dry or wet rot, moth, vermin, insects, atmospheric or weather conditions.

But how can insurance know that it was a gradual thing? How do they prove that it was gradual?

coylemj · 02-06-2021 5:16pm

dcasey73 wrote: »

But how can insurance know that it was a gradual thing? How do they prove that it was gradual?

By your own words....

dcasey73 wrote: »

But it's so obvious that they let this thing go. There's no way they could have discovered it all of a sudden.

Good luck trying to convince an insurance assessor that damage caused by damp happened as a result of an insurable 'event'.

Thoie · 02-06-2021 5:19pm

dcasey73 wrote: »

But how can insurance know that it was a gradual thing? How do they prove that it was gradual?

Insurance companies would often send an assessor (maybe in this case an engineer) to see what the damage is.

Timber frames don't dissolve instantly on contact with water, they'd know whether it was something going on for a while, vs a one off flood.

Metroid diorteM · 02-06-2021 5:19pm

coylemj wrote: »

By your own words....

Good luck trying to convince an insurance assessor that damage caused by damp happened as a result of an insurable 'event'.

Insurance is the biggest scam

dcasey73 · 02-06-2021 5:26pm

Thoie wrote: »

Insurance companies would often send an assessor (maybe in this case an engineer) to see what the damage is.

Timber frames don't dissolve instantly on contact with water, they'd know whether it was something going on for a while, vs a one off flood.

What would their definition of a "while" be? Couldn't the tenants claim that they didn't notice what was happening until very recently when it got very bad? So it was a hidden problem until very recently?

Would insurers consider that to be a poor excuse? It's plausible if the tenant's are away a lot...

C14N · 02-06-2021 5:28pm

dcasey73 wrote: »

What would their definition of a "while" be? Couldn't the tenants claim that they didn't notice what was happening until very recently when it got very bad? So it was a hidden problem until very recently?

Would insurers consider that to be a poor excuse? It's plausible if the tenant's are away a lot...

I think the main point is that something sudden would have had to happen, not that it was suddenly noticable. A flood, a fire, a burglary, etc. are sudden events that insurance covers. If somehow there was an event that caused it to suddenly go from not being rotten to rotten in a matter of days, it might be covered, but it sounds implausible.

dcasey73 · 02-06-2021 5:36pm

C14N wrote: »

I think the main point is that something sudden would have had to happen, not that it was suddenly noticable. A flood, a fire, a burglary, etc. are sudden events that insurance covers. If somehow there was an event that caused it to suddenly go from not being rotten to rotten in a matter of days, it might be covered, but it sounds implausible.

This makes me think that wet and dry rot would never be covered by insurance in any case because it takes a significant amount of time for those kinds of things to develop in wood in the first place? Am I correct in thinking this?

So even if I had a highly respectable tenant who was extremely honest and they discovered rot somewhere in the accommodation and reported it immediately it probably wouldn't be covered in that case also?

coylemj · 02-06-2021 5:49pm

dcasey73 wrote: »

This makes me think that wet and dry rot would never be covered by insurance in any case because it takes a significant amount of time for those kinds of things to develop in wood in the first place? Am I correct in thinking this?

Yes

dcasey73 wrote: »

So even if I had a highly respectable tenant who was extremely honest and they discovered rot somewhere in the accommodation and reported it immediately it probably wouldn't be covered in that case also?

Correct.

Mrs OBumble · 02-06-2021 6:02pm

You are claiming that a tenant caused damp by opening the windows? Really?

The vast majority if damp is caused by windows not being opened.

I really think you're chancing your arm.

kirving · 02-06-2021 6:41pm

dcasey73 wrote: »

To be honest there were no problems in the earlier years of the tenancy so I never really had to carry out any maintenance. I inspected it about three years ago and everything seemed okay.

No preventative maintenance done in 10 years on the property? If so, that's a big big miss, and leads directly to this like this.

Damp and mould can happen in days and weeks, it not necessarily months or years either.

If windows are required to be left open to prevent damp, then there is something bigger wrong (more than just a broken vent IMO). Could be rising damp, a small leak if roof, window seals, heating issue, etc.

3DataModem · 02-06-2021 7:20pm

dcasey73 wrote: »

Could I threaten them with raising the rent in order to cover the costs? In other words "if you don't pay I will have to raise the rent significantly".

OMG no do not do this.

3DataModem · 02-06-2021 7:22pm

con747 wrote: »

In all fairness you did no inspections in 3 years

Your landlords insurance will require periodic inspections no doubt.

After 10 years a few months rent worth of repairs that are non-malicious would be fine.

Darc19 · 02-06-2021 7:34pm

dcasey73 wrote: »

I have made it very clear to them that I'm quite angry about it and that I think they are being dishonest. I'm not sure whether my insurance will cover it because of the circumstances.

But it's so obvious that they let this thing go. There's no way they could have discovered it all of a sudden.

I think you should direct that anger at yourself.

No matter how well you get on with a tenant, you need to do an annual inspection. It will flag issues before they become major issues.

This year has been particularly damp too with barely 3 days without rain.

If this is the only issue, then I'd be apologising to the tenant, but at the same time educate him/her that to keep an eye open for such matters.

Then get a proper inspection done, and do further inspections yourself every twelve months.

PetitPois89 · 02-06-2021 8:55pm

dcasey73 wrote: »

Could I threaten them with raising the rent in order to cover the costs? In other words "if you don't pay I will have to raise the rent significantly".

No you cannot. It is extremely difficult to prove the tenants are at fault here. You would need an engineer/builders report and there would need to be clear and concise evidence of neglect or misuse on the tenants part. It’s their word against yours.

Take the hit and cover the costs and leave your tenants be. They’ve been no trouble for 10 years and haven’t cost you a penny. Sounds like you’re being very unreasonable here

FishOnABike · 02-06-2021 9:33pm

dcasey73 wrote: »

Well that's the thing. I think the timber framing could be significantly rotted. Could I get them to pay for this by threatening to raise the rent in order to cover the costs?

If the property is in a rent pressure zone you can only increase the rent in line with the residential tenancy board guidelines / legislation.

Caranica · 02-06-2021 9:42pm

Like another poster I'm intrigued as to how you "let damp in"? I agree that dampness issues are usually caused by lack of ventilation, windows not being opened, vents blocked up etc?

brian_t · 02-06-2021 9:51pm

Damaged roof slates can let water in.

Caranica · 02-06-2021 10:13pm

brian_t wrote: »

Damaged roof slates can let water in.

"Let damp into the room via the windows" according to the OP. As opposed to letting water into the room?

Claw Hammer · 03-06-2021 2:17pm

If you want to get rid of the tenant on the basis of this damage you will have to give the tenant the opportunity to repair the damage. The RTB expect an inspection every three months and will only hold the tenant liable for any damage which occurred before the 3 monthly inspection was due.

The tenant is part 4 protected and you will have trouble getting them out at all. In fact you are in breach of your landlord obligations in failing to provide damp free accommodation. You are unlikely to get the tenant out and may well have to compensate the tenant.
You are the author of your own misfortune.

gibgodsman · 03-06-2021 2:26pm

Sounds to me like you let your property just become an income for the past 10 years without any care to maintain it, then once an issue occurred you blamed the tenant and not yourself for keeping your property maintained, its not their job to maintain your property for 10 years, its yours to do annual checks and make sure everything is ok, not leave it for 3 years and hope they do your job for you.

Screwthebeast · 06-06-2021 10:23am

dcasey73 wrote: »

To be honest there were no problems in the earlier years of the tenancy so I never really had to carry out any maintenance. I inspected it about three years ago and everything seemed okay.

Right, this problem is on you then, it's your obligation to maintain the property, the tenant is a tenant not a free surveyor.

YOU must realise they may have no clue, that's why you inspect.

Discodog · 06-06-2021 6:35pm

I was talking with a friend who has rented the same house for 20 years, with no written agreement & presumably no RTB. She also pays her rent in cash with no receipts.

How easy would it be for her to be evicted ?

06-06-2021 6:52pm

Discodog wrote: »

I was talking with a friend who has rented the same house for 20 years, with no written agreement & presumably no RTB. She also pays her rent in cash with no receipts.

How easy would it be for her to be evicted ?

As easy as any other tenant, which isn’t easy if the tenant doesn’t want to go.

Kimbot · 08-06-2021 9:09am

3 years without an inspection........ the blame of this is on your own shoulders. If you done even a yearly inspection then this would have been picked up before it got bad by you. First thing to do now is get a quote for repair and see how bad the damage is. If its a long time accumulating then take the hit on the chin and make sure you do regular enough inspections to stop things like this happening.

ted1 · 09-06-2021 12:59pm

Discodog wrote: »

I was talking with a friend who has rented the same house for 20 years, with no written agreement & presumably no RTB. She also pays her rent in cash with no receipts.

How easy would it be for her to be evicted ?

She’d need a long notice period. (224 days)
Also depends on where she is currently in her 6 year part 4 tenancy

Preventing a further Part 4 tenancy

If your landlord wants to stop a further Part 4 tenancy from coming into existence, they can serve a notice during the original Part 4 tenancy, with the notice period expiring on or after the end of the tenancy. A notice served in this way should provide a reason for termination. The reason does not need to be one of the valid grounds for terminating a Part 4 tenancy.

Discodog · 10-06-2021 6:06pm

ted1 wrote: »

She’d need a long notice period. (224 days)
Also depends on where she is currently in her 6 year part 4 tenancy

Preventing a further Part 4 tenancy

If your landlord wants to stop a further Part 4 tenancy from coming into existence, they can serve a notice during the original Part 4 tenancy, with the notice period expiring on or after the end of the tenancy. A notice served in this way should provide a reason for termination. The reason does not need to be one of the valid grounds for terminating a Part 4 tenancy.

There is no written agreement, no ptb & no proof of paid rent as she pays in cash with no receipts.

10-06-2021 6:10pm

Discodog wrote: »

There is no written agreement, no ptb & no proof of paid rent as she pays in cash with no receipts.

Your "friend" sounds like a wonderful person.

I hope they get what's coming to them.

Discodog · 10-06-2021 11:27pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Your "friend" sounds like a wonderful person.

I hope they get what's coming to them.

What have they done wrong?

Claw Hammer · 11-06-2021 10:35am

Discodog wrote: »

There is no written agreement, no ptb & no proof of paid rent as she pays in cash with no receipts.

So what. She will have utility bills and other correspondence to the address. neighbours will be able to say they saw her living there. Do you think the landlord is going to go to the RTB and say she never lived there, or if she did it was on a rent free basis?

Discodog · 11-06-2021 7:12pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

So what. She will have utility bills and other correspondence to the address. neighbours will be able to say they saw her living there. Do you think the landlord is going to go to the RTB and say she never lived there, or if she did it was on a rent free basis?

She's very happy there & gets on well with the landlord. She was a little concerned about her rights as there's no written agreement. She was also worried that she might have a responsibility to notify the PTB of the tenancy.

Dempo1 · 11-06-2021 7:40pm

Whilst I sympathise with OP, I got a sense Deliberate damage was caused but have to question how one proves a tenant deliberately and over a very long time allowed dampness cause extensive damage to drywall. With a tenancy stretching 10 years how does one prove such a long standing tenant suddenly becomes irresponsible, it won't make any sense if legal proceedings are issued. The harsh a painful reality (and not knowing the full facts) is OP should follow to the letter any legal notice requirements, document and fix the issues immediately and move on. Blunt yes but I see no easy way to resolve the trust that has broken down.

Flinty997 · 11-06-2021 7:47pm

dcasey73 wrote: »

Hi all,

So I've rented out an apartment to someone for more than 10 years who I believe is responsible for significant damage caused to the property over the last year.

I'm wondering if I fix the damage, send a bill to the tenant and discover that the tenant wont pay what can I legally do? I've read that I can give them a 30 days "Notice with cause" to terminate the tenancy.

However I've also read on Citizen's Information that I need to give the tenant 224 days notice before I can kick them out. This is because they've been living in the accommodation for more than 10 years.

I'm confused at what I'm legally able to do in order for them to pay for the damage caused. Can I bring them to the small claims court or something along those lines?

Thanks

The question really is will the cost of getting a judgment be more than the judgment is worth. Especially if they can't pay it. That's assuming you win. Which is unlikely.

Rights that a tenant has if they have rented property for more than 10 years

Comments