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Now ye're talking - to a US police officer Part II

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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,246 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Good tip on the laminated card. Simple yet effective.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,019 ✭✭✭✭Rjd2


    Ma’Khia Bryant death is a tragedy, but I don't think the police officer had much of a choice as it was a split second choice as she was literally about to stab the other girl.

    It seems harsh to lump that officer in the same category as trash like Chauvin as some did online initially when the story broke.

    Or could he have handled it in a way that would have resulted in everyone walking away?


  • Company Representative Posts: 189 Verified rep I'm a US police officer, AMA


    Bryant's death is a tragedy regardless of the circumstances.

    I've watched the open source video's in public domain, and while I'm reluctant to draw conclusions from just the few I've seen as I wasn't there and there is always more information than what is readily available.

    Based on what I saw, I don't know the officer could have done much different. He was presented with a crowd, the usual shouting, a disturbance more or less in front of him and then Bryant has a go with someone with a knife.

    Despite what is perceived in the movies/TV, a knife is a deadly weapon and the police are authorized under law to use deadly force to counter deadly force regardless of who it is directed at. Looking at the angles & distances from the video, it looks to me at best borderline for a tazer, so I don't know what else he could have done.

    There is a lot of media attention on as the victim is black and the officer is white. Sadly, its getting swept up in the George Floyd/Brianna Taylor shootings media frenzy and it's shifting the focus from any kind of objectivity. Based on what I saw, I don't know what else he could have done to prevent her from stabbing someone.

    Sad.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,342 ✭✭✭Damien360


    Bryant's death is a tragedy regardless of the circumstances.

    I've watched the open source video's in public domain, and while I'm reluctant to draw conclusions from just the few I've seen as I wasn't there and there is always more information than what is readily available.

    Based on what I saw, I don't know the officer could have done much different. He was presented with a crowd, the usual shouting, a disturbance more or less in front of him and then Bryant has a go with someone with a knife.

    Despite what is perceived in the movies/TV, a knife is a deadly weapon and the police are authorized under law to use deadly force to counter deadly force regardless of who it is directed at. Looking at the angles & distances from the video, it looks to me at best borderline for a tazer, so I don't know what else he could have done.

    There is a lot of media attention on as the victim is black and the officer is white. Sadly, its getting swept up in the George Floyd/Brianna Taylor shootings media frenzy and it's shifting the focus from any kind of objectivity. Based on what I saw, I don't know what else he could have done to prevent her from stabbing someone.

    Sad.

    Would it be a non story if both were black? Both officer and Bryant. Or both white ? Genuine question. Seems odd even here that the crime committed is all but forgotten to make the criminal some sort of saint ? Is main steam media so happy to get the likes that it runs with the Twitter crap instead of listening to the rest of the population. I’ve seen a few black commentators come out in support of officers in Bryant case on the same basis that you pointed out above but they are washed away in the media frenzy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    A first is dangerous so it is, and I'm sure you would be happier going home especially when the person is hell bent on harming you or others or even set on killing you.


    The human mind is one extremely dangerous thing and the eyes can tell a lot but more so hands, what are they doing with their hands.

    Seen there recently guy kills family then 2 officers that attended to do a welfare check and then takes his life....

    I just can't understand why they can't just take themselves if this is their course.... The officers in no way deserved that ending or in that way.


    Very sad and I really commend you for keeping your community as safe as you can and to all emergency personnel.

    What absolute saviours ye really are.....


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  • Company Representative Posts: 189 Verified rep I'm a US police officer, AMA


    Would it be a non story if both were black? Both officer and Bryant. Or both white ? Genuine question. Seems odd even here that the crime committed is all but forgotten to make the criminal some sort of saint ? Is main steam media so happy to get the likes that it runs with the Twitter crap instead of listening to the rest of the population. I’ve seen a few black commentators come out in support of officers in Bryant case on the same basis that you pointed out above but they are washed away in the media frenzy.

    As much as I don't buy into the "war on police hysteria", I'd submit if both parties involved were white, it wouldn't have made the news outside the local area. As I've said before, the public base their understanding of the law and the judicial process based on movies & TV and whatever half baked ****e they pick up along the way. This comes out as the "he could have shot the knife out of her hand" or "could have shot to wound" or "he could have tazed her" sort of thing. This is swiftly followed by various personalities jumping on the bandwagon, making accusations about the police "not releasing the footage" and so on. At this point there is almost a script for this.

    Media don't help matters, as there is the media "rush to be first" with a headline and the breathy anchor reporting live from the scene with an exclusive interview with a grieving family member. Sadly, IMHO, the a lot of media in the US has lost its ability to be thoughtful, objective and reflective, and don't even get me started about the online media/social media. As the saying sadly goes, "they'll never let the facts get in front of a good headline".
    I want to be clear, I'm a fan of the media, I have a good friend who is a journalist, but it's so cut-throat for them, headlines get viewers or clicks, which generates ad revenue.

    I bet a lot of you never heard about this shooting, and I can assure you no one was protesting this guys actions. Yes I know he was shot by the responding officers, you get my point.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9BcjsnTikE

    A so called "routine traffic stop"


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    That should never have happened, unfortunately he was too nice and he never kept an eye on what the guy was doing, didn't help with the size of the truck.....

    Very sad he was taken like that.

    I seen that he was known, wanted yet the officer wasn't given the information he was dealing with a very dangerous individual.

    Maybe it could be a learning tool to help train others and put better protocol in place.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,943 ✭✭✭✭the purple tin


    I notice on a lot of US TV shows people borrow each other's cars a lot. Not just family members but friends and neighbours, they just ask for the keys and away they go.
    What is the insurance situation like there? Is anyone covered to drive your car once you give them permission or is that just tellyland stuff?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,246 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I notice on a lot of US TV shows people borrow each other's cars a lot. Not just family members but friends and neighbours, they just ask for the keys and away they go.
    What is the insurance situation like there? Is anyone covered to drive your car once you give them permission or is that just tellyland stuff?

    That I can answer. Yes, though there are some state-specific (which AMA may answer) or policy-specific quirks.

    The rule generally is that the insurance covers the car, not the driver. If you give permission to use the car for a while, the driver's covered by your insurance.

    The problem occurs when it's routine use or by someone who lives with you. In such a case it is expected that the person be listed as a named driver on the insurance. Thus, my wife and I are both listed as named drivers on our cars, but when a family member or friend comes over on vacation for a couple of weeks, I loan them a car, no problems. This seems to be not the case for Ireland, when I go over, my dad needs to add me as a named driver if I'm going to borrow the family car. (For, apparently, an unGodly amount of money)


  • Company Representative Posts: 189 Verified rep I'm a US police officer, AMA


    Yep,

    The above reply nailed it. In the US it's the vehicle that is insured, not the operator (technical legal term for "driver" :-).

    Same here, it's cheaper for me to hire a car back home that use my parents car given the exorbitant Irish insurance rates. When I have family visit from Ireland, I just give them the keys and tell the m to be careful (I do ask they get one of those silly International Drivers licenses so my insurance company won't get fussy in the event of an accident), but otherwise off they go.

    Here in TX, the operator is responsible for violations, so if my lead footed brother in law gets pulled for speeding, he gets the ticket, not me. There are some various policy stipulations on minors driving, but as far as the law is concerned, if they have a valid license, and the car is covered, in the event of an accident, that'll be between the owner & the insurance company.

    When we run plates on the MDC, in addition to the details of the owner, etc., we can tell is insurance is current. It's bloody brilliant really. Before the law changed to compel insurance companies to share data with us, we had no way of verification. People would pay the first installment on a year long policy, get the card, cancel the policy and we had no way of knowing. Likewise with forged insurance cards. In the first year of the law changing, uninsured motorists fell by 35%.

    Working on getting one of our Traffic gals to answer some questions, so fire away with those traffic questions and I'll get them answered.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,887 ✭✭✭IrishZeus


    My uncle who is based in Charleston, SC has a concealed weapons permit. Is there a procedure you should follow if you’re carrying a gun in a car and you get pulled over for whatever reason?

    He was told before to let the window down, put both hands clearly on the wheel and explain calmly that he has a weapon in the car. The fear being, of course, that someone could panic and things go south.

    What would you advise in this scenario? Does it happen often? And are people obliged to tell you they have a weapon if you stop them for a routine traffic violation for example?


  • Company Representative Posts: 189 Verified rep I'm a US police officer, AMA


    If you get stopped by the police, a good practice is to do the following:

    Once the officer lights you up, indicate you have seen him/her by turning on your hazard lights, then carefully pull over to a safe spot. Hard shoulder, car park, whatever the situation allows. Do this slowly and carefully.

    Once stopped, lower all your windows front & back, as much as the weather will allow. Put the car in park/neutral, driver keep you hands on the wheel and have all passengers sit quietly with hands in plain sight.

    If you feel the need to record the stop, fine, just put your phone on the dash or whatever. We really don't care, we're recording the stop anyhow.

    Let the officer make their approach, introduction and politely answer their questions. If you have a legal gun in the car, now is the time to say "officer, I have a legally owned gun in the car and its in the glovebox, holster, whatever". Let him/her guide you. They'll ask for your license, etc. Now you say

    "my license is in my wallet and the insurance/registration is in the glove box, do you mind if I reach for them". Do it nice & slow, hand 'em over and just sit.

    Officer will do what they are going to do, usually go back to the car to check your details. Again, just sit there patiently. When they come back, same again, sign the ticket, answer the questions, whatever.

    The more you do to keep things polite & calm the lower our tension is. In some states a licensed gun owner is required to tell a police officer they have same and are carrying.

    Politeness and calmness go a long way, and yes, attitude can be the difference between a ticket & a warning with some people, myself included.

    How to avoid getting pulled:

    SLOW DOWN & DRIVE THE SPEED LIMIT
    WEAR YOUR SEAT BELT
    DONT TEXT & DRIVE

    Now the big secrets out...... :-)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭McCrack


    It all seems uneasy and clinical from the get go, being on heightened alert like that all the time when dealing with the general public for routine matters. It seems quite stressful actually


  • Company Representative Posts: 189 Verified rep I'm a US police officer, AMA


    Dealing with the public is situation dependent, and any cop worth their salt, be it a Garda back home or an NYPD officer patrolling the mean streets of Brooklyn should always have a degree of awareness, it's part of the job and to a great part it becomes second nature. Sure, compared to Ireland we have to bear in mind there is a huge gun culture here and it does change how we do business.

    It's just part of the furniture really at this point, and traffic stops have an element of risk to them, you're generally alone, don't really know who or what's in the car and what are their intentions. So while it might sound clinical, it's a safety issue.

    After domestics, most cops in the US are killed at traffic stops. It's why we don't use the term "routine traffic stop", that's a media term, it's a traffic stop, pay attention. Policing has a element of risk regardless of where you are, because there is always that one who wants to have a go. We're not trying to be robots, we want to go home at the end of the shift, just like anyone else.

    Speaking of traffic stops, pulled a lad last night for 110MPH in a 65!!! Middle aged dad with wife, baby in the back, no emergency and he gave me all the usual ****e about "nothing better to do, real criminals, etc." I guess he had to be the "big man" in front of the family one supposes. Sad really, one moment of inattention and he could have killed them all at that speed.

    A weeks weapon training next week on patrol rifle, that'll be a good time. Be safe out there.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,246 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    If you have a legal gun in the car, now is the time to say "officer, I have a legally owned gun in the car and its in the glovebox, holster, whatever"

    Mmm. In case you come across folks with a CCW/LTC/CHL, that’s not a recommended course of action on our end.* The advice given by most CCW instructors is to not say anything aloud. According to industry wisdom, cops, who are understandably a bit nervous about dealing with unknown people, let alone unknown people with guns, will tend to fixate on the word “gun” or “armed”, it almost always will result in an increase in tension. Instead, hand over the license to carry together with the drivers license. This does three things at the officer’s speed: It notifies them that you are armed, and also that you have passed a background check. In Texas, it also provides compliance with State law which requires presenting the License to Carry if you are armed when an officer asks for your identification. (TGC 411.205)

    I got hauled in by DPS (State troopers, for non-Texans) for no front plate last year. I handed both licenses at the same time to him, being sure to place the LTC on top. He looked at it for about five seconds, handed it back. Didn’t as much as ask where the firearm was, which surprised me at the time, but upon reflection I figured it’s irrelevant to him: If I had ill intent, I could be lying and have it elsewhere, or a second one. Then he proceeded (very professionally, I have to say) with issuing me the ticket.

    *States which don’t require an LTC are another matter, of course.


  • Company Representative Posts: 189 Verified rep I'm a US police officer, AMA


    Yes, that is also acceptable to present the relevant license. The majority of permitted carriers know that and do it, that's fine. However you do it, be slow and deliberate and just let us know. Of course the way this State legislative session is going, we're going to just let anyone do anything they want with guns....sigh....but, story for another time/forum.

    Now in TX, when you take the driving license classes, there is a module on how to interact with the police to include traffic stops and so on. Glad its there but sad in a way that we have to have a class that basically says be polite...


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,943 ✭✭✭✭the purple tin


    Would you say ye are a bit more lax on drink driving there than here and the UK? Do ye use that walk in a straight line and touch your nose stuff or would ye just breathalyze?

    There was a show on telly where this english guy did tough jobs in America for a week at a time, he went out with the Arkansas police in one show.
    Anyway they saw somebody going through a stop sign and pulled him over, yer man had drink in the car and it seemed like he was on his way home from a party (early morning). The officer asked him had he any drink taken and yer man says a couple of beers about two hours ago. Then the officer says alright off you go, don't open that drink till you get home. I thought that was very lax.

    When they were back in the canteen at the copshop the english lad was telling them that in UK yer man would have been breathalyzed straight away if there is the slightest suspicion he had drink taken, if he failed straight to the station for a blood test, fail that and you lose your licence for how ever many years.
    The other cops couldn't believe it, they thought that was all a bit OTT.
    How many breathalyzers would you carry in your car going on your shift?

    They are quite tough on drink driving here now, they have really tightened it up over the last 10 or 15 years- especially on bank holiday weekends, Christmas etc. My friend is tee-total and he has been breathalyzed three times over the last five years.


  • Company Representative Posts: 189 Verified rep I'm a US police officer, AMA


    More on this tomorrow....


  • Company Representative Posts: 189 Verified rep I'm a US police officer, AMA


    Well I didn't see the show, so I can only speculate. it is not impossible the officer didn't have Probable Cause to go further and investigate if the driver was intoxicated or not. merely having drink in the car is not a crime outside (in TX) of carrying an open container in the vehicle.

    We have a zero tolerance for DWI (Driving While Intoxicated), and as in all things, first I need Probable Cause (PC) to pull you over, which is generally a traffic violation. Then I need PC to determine if I can administer the Standardized Field Sobriety Test (SFST) which is the walk, turn, etc. If I smell alcohol on your breath, you have slurred speech, bloody or glassy eyes, then I can administer the test. If I can't clearly articulate that, I'm on shaky legal ground. Telling me you had a drink is not grounds, without PC for further investigation.

    If you fail the SFST, then I have grounds for arrest, you'll be taken downtown, I'll get a warrant, medics draw your blood (we have nurses & paramedics working in the jail), breathalyze you and administer another SFST on video. (roadside one was taped too of course). All this is to show a jury you were in fact intoxicated.

    In TX its an automatic license suspension for 120 days, and fighting this will cost you about $10-15K in court & lawyer fees, car towed, etc. After personal injury lawyers, this is the second biggest cohort of attorneys in the legal profession (i.e. DWI specialists).

    Honestly its a huge problem, we have specialist units who this is all they do, and we surge over the holidays but the scale of the problem is enormous. I think our laws could be stronger myself. It's 100% preventable, especially with Uber & Lyft sort of thing.

    To administer the SFST the officer has to attend a week long course with a refresher every two years. The class includes an "alcohol lab" where you bring a mate who gets to drink so you can practice the test. Naturally a designated driver is required :-)


    Texas law is as follows:

    First offense
    Up to a $2,000 fine. Up to 180 days in jail upon conviction with three mandatory days. Loss of driver license up to a year.

    Second offense
    Up to a $4,000 fine. One month to a year in jail upon conviction. Loss of driver license up to two years.

    Third offense
    A $10,000 fine. Two to 10 years in prison. Loss of driver license up to two years.

    These fines do not include a state fine of $3,000, $4,500, or $6,000 assessed upon sentencing.

    Drunk driving with a child passenger

    You will be charged with child endangerment if you're driving drunk with children under 15. You will be additionally fined up to $10,000.
    You could be put in jail for up to two years. You will lose driver's license for another 180 days.


  • Company Representative Posts: 189 Verified rep I'm a US police officer, AMA


    Sorry, forgot...

    Those roadside breathalyzers are not used here, they, for reasons unknown to me do not meet the standard of evidence here for a DWI. We can only use the SFST, not the Portable Breath Tester (PBT's) I see in the UK.

    Furthermore, Sobriety Checkpoints don't pass the constitutional test here. Various places tried them, but it was litigated out of existence on legal grounds. IE, not having PC to stop people. There are ways around it, but it's so up for legal challenges, the juice isn't worth the squeeze.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,943 ✭✭✭✭the purple tin


    Cheers. Another quick question, are there any Irish travellers in your area. They are branching out across the US this last few years I hear.


  • Company Representative Posts: 189 Verified rep I'm a US police officer, AMA


    If by travelers, you mean the people used to be called gypsies (amongst other less charitable things) back home; no haven't seen any here. I've encountered the occasional Paddy here but that's it. We have a large homeless population who sort of live a similar lifestyle I suppose. We try not to get involved in "moving people on" unless there is criminality. It's not a crime to be poor & homeless. I know within the homeless population, there is criminality, drug use & so on and we take action on that as required. But no Irish that I've seen but it wouldn't surprise me if they are out there.

    Had a mate working traffic last night, his shoulder was clipped by a wing mirror by a passing motorist while he was assisting a broken down motorist. Thankfully he's ok other than shaken up, we got a LP and caught the guy. He was drunk off his arse of course. Close call.

    Be safe....


  • Company Representative Posts: 189 Verified rep I'm a US police officer, AMA


    We had a murder the last shift I worked. We get a call for "shots fired", head over to the address (lights & sirens). 13 year old called to say her mum was shot outside. Get there, victim is outside on the drive in couple of rounds to the chest, 32 yo female. Partner starts first aid, which becomes CPR. I'm looking for the suspect, he's nowhere to be found. Finally get from a family member it's her ex-boyfriend, get a name , description & type of car.

    EMS & fire show up to take over the medical part, sadly its a pronouncement on scene, no transport. We are setting up a perimeter, have K-9 and the helicopter searching for the suspect. We get his phone number and start tracking it, looks like he's miles away in the southern part of the city. NOTE: tracking cell phones is not exact, more of a general area sort of thing, so the heli is looking for the car by type & location.

    At this point it's a crime scene. SGT calls in Crime Scene & the on call detectives. I get to start sealing off the area, partner is corralling up witnesses, separating people so we can start getting statements, identification and so on. Victim Services arrive to take care of the hysterical family, trying to console them and help them understand the victim is dead and we now have a job to do. Its never pretty, victim covered in a sheet on the drive in, crime scene tape, can't go into their house, noise, activity, cops everywhere, lights, etc. Crime Scene show up (been about an hour at this point), thankfully we can turn the scene over to them and the detectives who arrived about the same time.

    Once life saving measures have stopped, everyone backs away from the crime scene, and we secure it until the detectives get there. Anyone who enters is logged in & out, they wear the bunny suits, the lot (to preserve evidence). Now they can pop the tent over the victim, and make things a little less obvious. Takes them about 90 minutes to do their thing, pictures, evidence, found a few shell casings, then the ME can remove the body for the autopsy.

    We're a few hours into in at this point (we keep water & snacks in our cars), probably spoken to 8 people, all of whom have to be identified, get their statements, take notes. We've canvassed for video, identified what might be available for the detectives later.

    As we're winding down, meet up with SGT, LT & Detectives to go over details, then we release the scene. I spend the next two hours writing a report, getting all the details entered, ensuring the crime scene logs are good, got everyone's name & badge number, drop all the paperwork off. Was supposed to get off at midnight, finally stumbled home at 0530.

    While I was typing my life away, the heli & patrol had tracked the car to a house. SWAT gets called in, they sit on the house for a while as they determine who else may be in there and is the suspect even in here. He could have just parked the car there and legged it. Through intelligence they find out it's his brothers house, and as best they can determine, no family in there. They call him, negotiator talks to him for a bit, he agrees to come out quietly. He gets nicked, SWAT clears the house, then secures it. One of the detectives writes a search warrant, gets that approved by the duty judge, they go back in, find a gun in the back garden.

    Suspect is booked in, taken to interview room, waives his Miranda rights, and agrees to talk. Detectives talk with him for two hours, he confesses to killing his ex girlfriend because he was jealous of her seeing some other bloke. Detectives write the paperwork, he's formally charged in front of the judge, no bail, off he goes to contemplate 25 years in prison, he's 24. He'll leave the pen an old man. The victim had a 13 and 8 year old kid, so their life is scarred too.

    They still have to do the autopsy, process evidence, build a case, re-interview witnesses, get a warrant and search his car, process his clothing for residue, process him for residue (that happens right away in the jail). In about 6 months the DA will review the case, make a decision about a trial. Then, probably about 18 months from now, it'll go to trial.

    And so it goes. It had been a quiet shift, two burglary calls, a car-jacking and a domestic which another unit took the report on. Life in the big city, eh?


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    That definitely has to take its toll on everyone involved.

    Great to have people like yourself willing to go all out to get the job done.

    R.I.P to the young lady and condolences to all her family and friends.


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