Can someone clarify a planning permission question?

09-06-2021 10:17pm #1

I've googled this extensively, and i can't get a clear enough answer. I keep getting conflicting information when I browse the various websites and forums relating to this kind of thing.

I'm trying to avoid getting the council involved until the 7 years have passed, incase there's something wrong somewhere and they want it taken down (extremely unlikely, but a concern nonetheless). It's about 5 years old at the moment.

So: built an extension. Small builder, 2-man outfit type of set up, with other tradesmen coming and going as necessary. No architect involved as the extension is a concrete square with nothing fancy going on, and builder seems to know his stuff. Extension meets all the usual criteria in terms of no bigger than 40sq/m, 25sq/m garden space, max heights, yada yada. everything is all grand.

The one question mark, which I was sure was fine at the time, but have had conflicting advice on since, is that the extension "wraps around" the back and side of the house.

This is where it gets complicated.

The house is end terrace with about a 5ft "side access". However, the side access isn't actually side access, as the street is on a slope, so when the houses were being built, a wall, about 7ft tall, was built, that is flush with the front of the house, and blocks us from using it as side access.

So there is now an extension at the side of the house, BUT it is invisible from the front of the house, and does not affect the front elevation/view/etc. as it is completely hidden behind the pre-existing wall.

As a result, it also (obviously) doesn't project beyond the front of the house, either. The side extension starts about 2 meters back from the front wall of the house.

So if you were to stand outside, looking at the house, both before and after the extension, it looks identical. Nothing has changed.

I'm getting conflicting opinions on this, so figured I'd throw it out to ye guys and see can anyone comment who may have any experience of this.

Cheers to anyone who took the time to read this.

09-06-2021 10:28pm

This has been thrown together in about 45 seconds, but hopefully helps to give a rough idea of what I'm talking about:

https://i.postimg.cc/81gYTJ9F/extensionlayout.jpg

Gumbo · 09-06-2021 10:30pm

I believe You asked this before.
You may have actually asked before you built I believe.

You need planning as there’s no exemption for what you’ve done.
It will required regularisation if you intend to sell in the future.

It’s irrelevant if you can’t see it as the side of the house doesn’t enjoy an exemption for this.

09-06-2021 10:35pm

Gumbo wrote: »

I believe You asked this before.
You may have actually asked before you built I believe.

You need planning as there’s no exemption for what you’ve done.
It will required regularisation if you intend to sell in the future.

It’s irrelevant if you can’t see it as the side of the house doesn’t enjoy an exemption for this.

I did ask before. I actually asked on more than one occasion, and have gotten various replies about it. Was hoping to get something more concrete this time... dunno why.

For example, reading this, i get a different viewpoint on it..

https://selfbuild.ie/advice/planning-permission-extensions/

4. The extension must not project further than the ‘principal elevation’ of the house

For example, in both NI and ROI you would not be able to add a bay window to an existing house without planning permission as it projects further than the principal elevation. Small porches are however allowed under certain circumstances.

ROI: You can build an extension without planning permission only to the ‘rear of the house’. In my opinion this means that no part of the extension should be visible to the side facing the front. The definition of ‘front’ is also interesting as technically it is the side facing the main carriageway and this may not necessarily be where the front door is located. An exception to this is a garage, shed or store which is located to the side (or rear) of your house and that you plan to convert for a different use unless
the change of use leads to you building forward of the building line.

Gumbo · 09-06-2021 10:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I did ask before. I actually asked on more than one occasion, and have gotten various replies about it. Was hoping to get something more concrete this time... dunno why.

For example, reading this, i get a different viewpoint on it..

https://selfbuild.ie/advice/planning-permission-extensions/

The very text you quoted for ROI specifically states the rear of the house.

slavetothegrind · 09-06-2021 11:05pm

KKV get a pro out, an architectural technician, or architect. They will advise the facts. Won't cost much versus the worry of not knowing.

Hope it works out well for you!

Gumbo · 09-06-2021 11:06pm

slavetothegrind wrote: »

KKV get a pro out, an architectural technician, or architect. They will advise the facts. Won't cost much versus the worry of not knowing.

Hope it works out well for you!

Based on the info he’s posted, I’ve just saved him the money

09-06-2021 11:36pm

To be honest, I want to get it sorted. It's annoying me!

Assuming planning is required, can I do a retention permission myself? Or failing that, is it megabucks to get a professional in to sort it out?

My concern is less about the actual structures existence being an issue. It doesn't really annoy anyone else in the area. Most people don't know it even exists.

But I cut some corners when it was being built and didn't do some things that were advised.

For example, it's built with cavity block, instead of a cavity wall (I visited extensions by the same builder elsewhere, some much older than mine, and none had any issues, so iwas happy with this). Will this cause issue?

I also didn't put any vents into the kitchen (extension is to the rear just an add-on to the kitchen) as we live in a noisy area and the rest of the house doesn't have vents. I did install a wall vent, and a fan, in the utility room and bathroom, respectively (these are what go down the side of the house).

Does it stand to my favour at all, that my dad lives with me, and the purpose of the side extension was mostly for his benefit (ground floor bathroom, as he isnt physically able for getting up and down stairs multiple times a day to go to the toilet)?

All these kind of things, that I appreciate may ultimately be non-issues, are what put me off going near doing anything with it.

All the plumbing kinda just goes where it always did (waste water and such from the new bathroom just makes it way to where everything went prior to the extension, so I'm not too concerned about that kinda thing being problematic).

Sometimes wish I never bothered to be honest.

Gumbo · 09-06-2021 11:46pm

Planning retention will regularise the structure in its location.
Building regulations is another kettle that you’ll have to cross if your looking for certification in the future.

Can you do it yourself? Technically yes.

muffler · 10-06-2021 1:00am

To add to Gumbo's posts I can confirm that yes, planning is required. Doesnt matter whether its visible from the front or not.

Regarding the methods and materials used it doesnt matter to the planners.

From the info given I wouldnt think there would be any real problem in getting retention and yes, you can prepare and lodge the application yourself

10-06-2021 5:29am

Gumbo wrote: »

Planning retention will regularise the structure in its location.
Building regulations is another kettle that you’ll have to cross if your looking for certification in the future.

Is there any point in getting one if I can't get the other, though?
What would building regs really be in the case of an extension? I know its cavity block built which is sometimes frowned upon, but its still a legitimate and accepted method of building as far as I know?

Anything else caj be presumably added at little cost (vents etc.?)

Calahonda52 · 10-06-2021 7:09am

As noted by the experts, PP and BR compliance are two separate streams so don't combine them.

My amateur take is
worse case scenario with PP non-compliance, permission is refused and in the very extreme case make you take it down, unlikely but within remit of LA/Courts. This has a 7 year actionable window for the LA, however after 7 years any PP non compliance still remains but it cant be enforced.

Worse case scenario with BR non-compliance, you have issues selling as a non cash buyer might not get a mortgage as no one will sign off on compliance. BR are not prescriptive on material choice, but on required outcomes for U values, ACHs etc that apply when the building works were done, ignoring any transitional periods

sydthebeat · 10-06-2021 9:13am

planning is 1,000,000% required

woody1 · 10-06-2021 10:55am

just for the sake of ramming the point home, planning is absolutely and without any doubt required,

10-06-2021 2:06pm

Cheers lads. Trying to get some info beyond that.

Gumbo · 10-06-2021 7:21pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Cheers lads. Trying to get some info beyond that.

What info?

11-06-2021 4:33pm

Gumbo wrote: »

What info?

Cheers.

Mostly: the process. What happens and when.

If I draw attention to it, and it turns out it need permission (i know, i know!), do I then have X amount of time to get permission sorted? Is it an expensive venture, and therefore should I make sure I've money aside to sort it out immediately, or will i have leeway on it for a while if it turns out to be expensive.

Can anything happen where the council say 'grand, we don't care about it, it's not an eyesore.. but you need to change the roof/doors/whatever to comply with Regulation 123A', and if so am I back into a money pit and a timer put over my head to get it sorted by a set date or such.

Can something happen where they say "well, it's grand, but it was built at a time when it needed to make sure the house was BER B1 rated, and it's not" and repeat the above situations.

I mean the extension is grand. I like it, and I feel comfortable in it. But I always seem to end up in the most complicated and awkward situations (in day to day life) so I am dreading the thoughts of doing it and being hit with a "gotcha" and a load of bills.

I'd be happy to hire someone, and throw them a few Euro, if i knew that I'd never have to think about it again, and that was it sorted; but I can't help but feel like it'll be a long, needlessly difficult process, that'll cost a fortune and leave me exhausted. :rolleyes: (perhaps I'm being overly pessimistic, though!)

I'm 5 years in. Other than the CoCo not being able to tell me to demolish it, are there any other benefits to waiting 7 years to go for retention?

Gumbo · 11-06-2021 8:49pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Cheers.

Mostly: the process. What happens and when.

If I draw attention to it, and it turns out it need permission (i know, i know!), do I then have X amount of time to get permission sorted? Is it an expensive venture, and therefore should I make sure I've money aside to sort it out immediately, or will i have leeway on it for a while if it turns out to be expensive.

Can anything happen where the council say 'grand, we don't care about it, it's not an eyesore.. but you need to change the roof/doors/whatever to comply with Regulation 123A', and if so am I back into a money pit and a timer put over my head to get it sorted by a set date or such.

Can something happen where they say "well, it's grand, but it was built at a time when it needed to make sure the house was BER B1 rated, and it's not" and repeat the above situations.

I mean the extension is grand. I like it, and I feel comfortable in it. But I always seem to end up in the most complicated and awkward situations (in day to day life) so I am dreading the thoughts of doing it and being hit with a "gotcha" and a load of bills.

I'd be happy to hire someone, and throw them a few Euro, if i knew that I'd never have to think about it again, and that was it sorted; but I can't help but feel like it'll be a long, needlessly difficult process, that'll cost a fortune and leave me exhausted. :rolleyes: (perhaps I'm being overly pessimistic, though!)

I'm 5 years in. Other than the CoCo not being able to tell me to demolish it, are there any other benefits to waiting 7 years to go for retention?

Process.
Apply for retention and wait. Decision made and that’s it.
Should go well for you based on the info you’ve provided.

Drawing attention to it.
How? By applying for retention?

Conditions.
Technically they can add a condition to change the roof if you’ve put something mad on it but if you have normal tiles to match the main house it should be grand.

BER
That’s building regs and there are minimum standards of insulation that’s based on the time of construction.

Agent.
Price will depend on your location and type of person that does it. Where are you based?

Waiting for the 7 years.
No benefit as you’ve opened the can of worms then with the application so the conditions will trunk the 7 year rule I believe.

11-06-2021 10:07pm

Cheers for the reply, Gumbo. Greatly appreciated.

Gumbo wrote: »

Conditions.
Technically they can add a condition to change the roof if you’ve put something mad on it but if you have normal tiles to match the main house it should be grand.

Went with a flat roof (felt) to help hide it from view at the front (not just cos of my misinterpretation of planning rules, but also cos there's a bit of anti-social behavior in my area and didn't want to draw attention to it).

BER
That’s building regs and there are minimum standards of insulation that’s based on the time of construction.

What happens if it's not up to scratch? Do they just outline that I need to do X and Y?

Agent.
Price will depend on your location and type of person that does it. Where are you based?

Drogheda based. Anyone you'd recommend?

muffler · 11-06-2021 10:22pm

Deleted User wrote: »

What happens if it's not up to scratch? Do they just outline that I need to do X and Y?

Planning will make no reference to building regs so once PP granted thats the end of it more or less.

It will only become an issue (which can be fairly easily sorted most times) if you ever go to sell the house.

Gumbo · 11-06-2021 10:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

What happens if it's not up to scratch? Do they just outline that I need to do X and Y?

Drogheda based. Anyone you'd recommend?

Building regs is a separate cert or a separate piece of legislation. You’ll need that when your selling and it may mean furnishing the person giving the cert with as much info and photos as possible.

I’ll check through my
Contacts. Know a guy that done some work around clogherhead.

Can someone clarify a planning permission question?

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