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Virgin Mary + Rainbows = Prison

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  • 15-05-2019 6:47pm
    #1
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭


    Well this is somewhat disturbing...

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-48257706
    The Polish civil rights activist who put up images of the Virgin Mary with a rainbow halo said she did so to protest against what she calls the "exclusion of LGBT people from society" by the country's Catholic Church.

    The images were placed around the city of Plock late last month by Elzbieta Podlesna, in reaction to an Easter display there featuring slogans about crimes or sins.

    Listed among the sins were "gender" and "LGBT"

    ...

    She was then taken to Plock for questioning and was charged with offending religious feelings - a crime in Poland, punishable by up to two years in prison.

    In a tweet, Poland's Interior Minister Joachim Brudzinski applauded the police's actions, writing: "All that nonsense about freedom and 'tolerance' does not give ANYONE the right to insult the feelings of the faithful".

    Given how invested some in this forum claim to be when it comes to free speech, I was surprised to not see a thread on it. To see this happening in Europe in this day and age is not something I would have expected, and would appear quite a worrying sign that some parts of the continent are going backwards at quite a rapid rate.


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    #2
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,678 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Well this is somewhat disturbing...

    ...

    some parts of the continent are going backwards at quite a rapid rate.


    It’s a matter of perspective really, isn’t it?

    I’m not a defender of the concept of free speech being the freedom to say whatever you like, whenever you like, about whoever you like. Freedom of expression even in Ireland has it’s limits. In Poland it appears they tend to take the right to freedom of expression seriously enough that nobody is free to act the cnut no matter how vehemently they disagree with someone else.


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    #3
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Loads of EU States still have blasphemy laws.


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    #4
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    It's the old chestnut of one person's free speech offending another's beliefs.


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    #5
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Well this is somewhat disturbing...

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-48257706


    Given how invested some in this forum claim to be when it comes to free speech, I was surprised to not see a thread on it. To see this happening in Europe in this day and age is not something I would have expected, and would appear quite a worrying sign that some parts of the continent are going backwards at quite a rapid rate.

    Them liberals, at it again. Booting a guy off twitter for threatening and slandering people.

    Oh, wait...


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    #6
    TuringBot47
    Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭TuringBot47


    You can't force your own agenda on to some elses deeply held beliefs and expect no blowback.

    You can't photoshop a poster to attempt to rewrite tradition, history and religion to suit your own selfish needs. You don't see any big multinationals using Jesus to sell their products.


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    #7
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If one wishes to accept that that such an intervention is an appropriate pursuit of the law, then obviously you must apply it to other, proportional constraints on free speech -- for example, prohibiting certain speakers from appearing at events on University campuses, or preventing the sale of literary material that is intended to stir-up hatred, or to demonise particular minorities, such as travellers.


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    #8
    paw patrol
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭paw patrol


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Well this is somewhat disturbing...

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-48257706


    Given how invested some in this forum claim to be when it comes to free speech, I was surprised to not see a thread on it. To see this happening in Europe in this day and age is not something I would have expected, and would appear quite a worrying sign that some parts of the continent are going backwards at quite a rapid rate.

    If they are her pics she can do as she pleases (if I was in charge).
    Free Speech is free speech


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    #9
    Ipso
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Loads of EU States still have blasphemy laws.

    For a victimless crime!


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    #10
    Atoms for Peace
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,888 ✭✭✭Atoms for Peace


    I'm listening to the Jesus and Mary chain in my underpants just in case anybody is wondering.


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    #11
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Billy86 wrote: »
    Well this is somewhat disturbing...

    ...

    some parts of the continent are going backwards at quite a rapid rate.


    It’s a matter of perspective really, isn’t it?

    I’m not a defender of the concept of free speech being the freedom to say whatever you like, whenever you like, about whoever you like. Freedom of expression even in Ireland has it’s limits. In Poland it appears they tend to take the right to freedom of expression seriously enough that nobody is free to act the cnut no matter how vehemently they disagree with someone else.
    It is, and I am generally not a fan of unfettered free speech for all either. But at the same time, I do not agree that putting a rainbow around an image of someone's head should have you imprisoned. It is pretty similar to the ludicrous idea of imprisoning people (or worse) for depicting Muhammad in some Muslim countries, and frankly I would rather European nations not aspire to that.

    Had they been burning images or effigy of her, then I would understand more.


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    #12
    TuringBot47
    Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭TuringBot47


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    If one wishes to accept that that such an intervention is an appropriate pursuit of the law, then obviously you must apply it to other, proportional constraints on free speech -- for example, prohibiting certain speakers from appearing at events on University campuses, or preventing the sale of literary material that is intended to stir-up hatred, or to demonise particular minorities, such as travellers.

    Or the use of social media to prohibit expert speakers from discussing their scientific opinions...

    See the AH thread on "Woman Loses Job for Holding Gender Critical Opinions."


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    #13
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,216 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    This is what happens when one cnut meets another cnut.

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



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    #14
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    TuringBot47 wrote: »
    You can't force your own agenda on to some elses deeply held beliefs and expect no blowback.

    You can't photoshop a poster to attempt to rewrite tradition, history and religion to suit your own selfish needs. You don't see any big multinationals using Jesus to sell their products.
    Oh, if course something like this would create blowback - but there is quite a difference between that and what happened here. By this standard, Stephen Fry would likely have been arrested before leaving the country after telling Gay Byrne what he really feels about God a few years ago.


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    #15
    TuringBot47
    Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭TuringBot47


    Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »
    This is what happens when one cnut meets another cnut.

    Can you be more specific on the subjects of your comment?


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    #16
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,216 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    TuringBot47 wrote: »
    Can you be more specific on the subjects of your comment?

    No.

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



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    #17
    Anteayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 886 ✭✭✭Anteayer


    Just shows the importance of our recent referendum, even if the offence was basically impossible to prosecute here, while it existed there was a possibility of extradition being upheld for blasphemy offences committed elsewhere.

    Greece once tried to extradite an Austrian artist who hadn't even been there!

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/mar/23/austria.arts


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    #18
    TuringBot47
    Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭TuringBot47


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Oh, if course something like this would create blowback - but there is quite a difference between that and what happened here. By this standard, Stephen Fry would likely have been arrested before leaving the country after telling Gay Byrne what he really feels about God a few years ago.

    Nobody should be arrested.
    Stephen Frys encounter with our antiquated laws was just a minor diversion and amusement. Dave Allen was attacking the Catholic church 20 years before that.

    So attacking a belief is one thing.
    Trying to tack on your own beliefs and jump on the 2000 year bandwagon is another.


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    #19
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    jesus thats shocking that would happen in ireland in 2019

    what?

    poland?

    right then. who gives a fcuk.


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    #20
    TuringBot47
    Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭TuringBot47


    Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »
    No.

    Yeah, that's how people game the system and dance around bans.


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    #21
    TheValeyard
    Registered Users Posts: 12,216 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    TuringBot47 wrote: »
    Yeah, that's how people game the system and dance around bans.

    I'll have you know my dancing skills are extraordinary. My version of the moonwalk is the talk of many a soiree.

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



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    #22
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    TuringBot47 wrote: »
    Billy86 wrote: »
    Oh, if course something like this would create blowback - but there is quite a difference between that and what happened here. By this standard, Stephen Fry would likely have been arrested before leaving the country after telling Gay Byrne what he really feels about God a few years ago.

    Nobody should be arrested.
    Stephen Frys encounter with our antiquated laws was just a minor diversion and amusement. Dave Allen was attacking the Catholic church 20 years before that.

    So attacking a belief is one thing.
    Trying to tack on your own beliefs and jump on the 2000 year bandwagon is another.
    I'm confused, your first post said she should have expected blowback regarding her pictures/arrest, but this one says nobody should be arrested?

    I am assuming we are both in agreement that neither she nor Fry should have been arrested, so I'm guessing the wording in your initial post just threw me a bit.


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    #23
    Patty Hearst
    Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭Patty Hearst


    Billy86 wrote: »
    Well this is somewhat disturbing...

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-48257706


    Given how invested some in this forum claim to be when it comes to free speech, I was surprised to not see a thread on it. To see this happening in Europe in this day and age is not something I would have expected, and would appear quite a worrying sign that some parts of the continent are going backwards at quite a rapid rate.

    Really? Have you not heard of the man who was sent to prison for placing a piece of bacon on the door of a Mosque? He subsequently died in prison.


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    #24
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,678 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Billy86 wrote: »
    It is, and I am generally not a fan of unfettered free speech for all either. But at the same time, I do not agree that putting a rainbow around an image of someone's head should have you imprisoned. It is pretty similar to the ludicrous idea of imprisoning people (or worse) for depicting Muhammad in some Muslim countries, and frankly I would rather European nations not aspire to that.

    Had they been burning images or effigy of her, then I would understand more.


    I’d have given you the benefit of the doubt that you weren’t deliberately ignoring context there if I thought you hadn’t read your own article before linking to it. Since I know you did read your own article, I can say with certainty that you’re deliberately ignoring the context. It’s not just “putting a rainbow around an image of someone’s head”, is it?

    You’re being purposely disingenuous if that’s your take on this incident.


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    #25
    TuringBot47
    Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭TuringBot47


    Billy86 wrote: »
    I'm confused, your first post said she should have expected blowback regarding her pictures/arrest, but this one says nobody should be arrested?

    I am assuming we are both in agreement that neither she nor Fry should have been arrested, so I'm guessing the wording in your initial post just threw me a bit.

    That's okay, I'm patient enough to explain things simply to you.

    Nobody should be arrested.
    But people who offend someones beliefs should expect "blowback".
    The statements are mutually exclusive.
    Where "blowback" means negative opinions on their published opinions.


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    #26
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Patty Hearst wrote: »
    Really? Have you not heard of the man who was sent to prison for placing a piece of bacon on the door of a Mosque? He subsequently died in prison.
    You mean the one in Florida in the US where he had multiple prior offenses for burglary, and accepted the plea for that sentence because it dropped the armed burglary charges for breaking into said mosque with a machete?

    Or do you mean the guy in the UK who died in prison from ODing on drugs, having been in there for shouting racial abuse at people in the moseuq while putting bacon over it?

    Because neither of those things are the same as here. If she was aggressively shouting bigotry at Catholics while doing it, or had broken into and vandalized a church before putting the pictures up in/around it, while also having multiple previous convictions for burglary... then you might have a point.





    So what is your take on this Patty, should she have been arrested and imprisoned?


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    #27
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    TuringBot47 wrote: »
    Billy86 wrote: »
    I'm confused, your first post said she should have expected blowback regarding her pictures/arrest, but this one says nobody should be arrested?

    I am assuming we are both in agreement that neither she nor Fry should have been arrested, so I'm guessing the wording in your initial post just threw me a bit.

    That's okay, I'm patient enough to explain things simply to you.

    Nobody should be arrested.
    But people who offend someones beliefs should expect "blowback".
    The statements are mutually exclusive.
    Where "blowback" means negative opinions on their published opinions.
    Well then I will also very simply point out to you that this thread isn't about blowback of public opinion or criticism in reaction to this. It is about being arrested and imprisoned by the state as a reaction to that.

    At least we are in agreement that Poland have messed up here, though.


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    #28
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Billy86 wrote: »
    It is, and I am generally not a fan of unfettered free speech for all either. But at the same time, I do not agree that putting a rainbow around an image of someone's head should have you imprisoned. It is pretty similar to the ludicrous idea of imprisoning people (or worse) for depicting Muhammad in some Muslim countries, and frankly I would rather European nations not aspire to that.

    Had they been burning images or effigy of her, then I would understand more.


    I’d have given you the benefit of the doubt that you weren’t deliberately ignoring context there if I thought you hadn’t read your own article before linking to it. Since I know you did read your own article, I can say with certainty that you’re deliberately ignoring the context. It’s not just “putting a rainbow around an image of someone’s head”, is it?

    You’re being purposely disingenuous if that’s your take on this incident.
    Jack, I think it goes without saying that a rainbow typically represents the LGBT community - who have been marginalised in Poland and are increasingly being done so under a very pro Catholic political party and establishment.

    Are you saying this is your defense of her being arrested?


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    #29
    El_Bee
    Registered Users Posts: 933 ✭✭✭El_Bee


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/calling-muhammad-paedophile-not-protected-by-free-speech-1.3678825

    Swings and roundabouts.


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    #30
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Billy86 wrote: »
    offending religious feelings - a crime in Poland
    Frigging nuts these laws still exist in this day and age.


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    #31
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    TuringBot47 wrote: »
    Or the use of social media to prohibit expert speakers from discussing their scientific opinions...

    See the AH thread on "Woman Loses Job for Holding Gender Critical Opinions."

    Bit of a difference here though, that woman won't be going to prison


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