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Merrion Gates removal scheme

1246

Comments

  • #152
    buffalo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,095 ✭✭✭buffalo


    Spotted this in the paper this morning: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/merrion-gates-closure-plan-shelved-1.3518469
    The National Transport Authority (NTA) has shelved plans to close Dublin’s Merrion Gates level crossing to traffic and build a flyover between Strand Road and Merrion Road in Dublin 4, following huge local opposition.

    However, the authority has warned that traffic congestion at Merrion Gates is likely to worsen and a solution will have to be found in the future.

    It is also developing a new off-road cycle route, likely to involve property acquisition at Seapoint.


  • #153
    Bray Head
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 896 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    I think the NTA comments support the 'conspiracy theory' that says the NTA will let the problem get worse once the DART frequency increases. And then have a 'We-told-you-so'-moment in a few years and put the plan back on the cards.


  • #154
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    In the above post #1501, there is a planning application to scupper the preferred solution - but there are objections to it.

    The original plan was wrapped in a cycling project - many objections were about the widening of the Merrion Road and the loss of front gardens and parking spaces. That could have been tackled.

    I agree - The NTA will wait until there is grid lock for more than 50% of the day and then pull the plan out again - Merrion Gates II, now new and improved.


  • #155
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,398 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    In the above post #1501, there is a planning application to scupper the preferred solution - but there are objections to it.

    The original plan was wrapped in a cycling project - many objections were about the widening of the Merrion Road and the loss of front gardens and parking spaces. That could have been tackled.

    I agree - The NTA will wait until there is grid lock for more than 50% of the day and then pull the plan out again - Merrion Gates II, now new and improved.

    I don't really think it's a conspiracy theory, it's just almost an inevitable result of what's already in the pipeline. Once the ten minute dart schedule comes into play, the locals that were objecting will probably be begging for the NTA to take their gardens.


  • #156
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    CatInABox wrote: »
    I don't really think it's a conspiracy theory, it's just almost an inevitable result of what's already in the pipeline. Once the ten minute dart schedule comes into play, the locals that were objecting will probably be begging for the NTA to take their gardens.

    The gardens are more to do with the bus lanes and cycle lanes on the Merrion Road. The bridge is possible as a stand-alone project which will turn the outbound Strand Road traffic over the bridge and onto a T junction on the Merrion Rd next to the church. That could be done without any gardens being taken.

    The garden taking will be needed when the traffic snarl up gets bad on the Merrion Rd.


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  • #157
    Green Party: Ossian Smyth
    Company Representative Posts: 26 Verified rep ✭Green Party: Ossian Smyth


    The next stage of this project is for Dublin City Council and DLR county council to design separate Part 8 schemes to build the sections of the S2S within their respective local authority boundaries. Part 8 schemes must be advertised, sent out for public consultation and approved, amended or rejected by councillors.

    When dropping the bridge overpass at Merrion Church, the NTA had suggested also abandoning the seafront section of the S2S along Strand Rd. They agreed to put it back in at a recent committee meeting.

    I expect that the Merrion Rd widening with land take from gardens will now be considered separately under Bus Connects.

    The Merrion Hall planning application above has been refused by DCC although the developer may now choose to appeal that refusal at Bord Pleanála.


  • #158
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Green Party: Ossian Smyth wrote: »

    The Merrion Hall planning application above has been refused by DCC although the developer may now choose to appeal that refusal at Bord Pleanála.

    Glad to hear that. It struck me as an outlandish plan that appeared to be trying to up the CPO value of the land take.

    I have not seen the refusal on the DCC site to see the reasons for refusal.


  • #159
    Kevtherev1
    Registered Users Posts: 156 ✭✭Kevtherev1


    CatInABox wrote: »
    I don't really think it's a conspiracy theory, it's just almost an inevitable result of what's already in the pipeline. Once the ten minute dart schedule comes into play, the locals that were objecting will probably be begging for the NTA to take their gardens.


    I agree with this. This is the way to go, let the nimbys suffer with another decade and half of gridlock while every other road improvement is made. They will be begging in the future. Tell them they had their chance and objected.


  • #160
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Kevtherev1 wrote: »
    I agree with this. This is the way to go, let the nimbys suffer with another decade and half of gridlock while every other road improvement is made. They will be begging in the future. Tell them they had their chance and objected.

    There is a mismatch between who suffers the pain of traffic grid lock and tailbacks, and who loses their garden and parking space.


  • #161
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Irish Times article on level crossing safety - today is International Level Crossing Safety Awareness Day apparently.

    The video includes a couple of lorries taking the Merrion gates with them.


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  • #162
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,398 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Irish Times article on level crossing safety - today is Level Crossing Safety Awareness Day apparently.

    The video includes a couple of lorries taking the Merrion gates with them.

    How long does a strike on the barriers take the level crossing out for? Do trains have to stop in the meantime?


  • #163
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    CatInABox wrote: »
    How long does a strike on the barriers take the level crossing out for? Do trains have to stop in the meantime?

    Well, in the past, they pull away the damaged gates and put a few guys in hi-viz jackets to control the traffic. Trains usually disrupted for an hour or so. Traffic eventually diverts around it but chaos ensues from Blackrock to the canal, depending on evening or morning.

    It needs to be replaced with one of the proposed schemes, preferably the one that goes through the car parks.


  • #164
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    The should close the Sydney parade and Booterstown stations and restore the station at the Merrion gates. The traffic could pass through the gates when the trains are stopped.


  • #165
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    The should close the Sydney parade and Booterstown stations and restore the station at the Merrion gates. The traffic could pass through the gates when the trains are stopped.

    How would that work?

    If the trains stop at Merrion Gates, the gates close for longer, due to the requirement to allow for the train overshooting the station, so gates would be closed for longer.

    Sydney Parade serves St Vincent's University Hospital, and a shuttle bus to UCD and Clonskeagh. Booterstown serves several schools including St Andrews.

    No, it would not be a good idea.


  • #166
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,398 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    How would that work?

    If the trains stop at Merrion Gates, the gates close for longer, due to the requirement to allow for the train overshooting the station, so gates would be closed for longer.

    Sydney Parade serves St Vincent's University Hospital, and a shuttle bus to UCD and Clonskeagh. Booterstown serves several schools including St Andrews.

    No, it would not be a good idea.

    With the ten minute schedule, it'd be a disaster.


  • #167
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    How would that work?

    If the trains stop at Merrion Gates, the gates close for longer, due to the requirement to allow for the train overshooting the station, so gates would be closed for longer.

    Sydney Parade serves St Vincent's University Hospital, and a shuttle bus to UCD and Clonskeagh. Booterstown serves several schools including St Andrews.

    No, it would not be a good idea.

    The Merrion gates are as close to St Vincents as Sydney parade. The schools are accessible from Blackrock. The gates have to close anyway once a train leaves either Booterstown or Sydney parade.


  • #168
    josip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,154 ✭✭✭✭josip


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    The Merrion gates are as close to St Vincents as Sydney parade. The schools are accessible from Blackrock. The gates have to close anyway once a train leaves either Booterstown or Sydney parade.


    St Andrews is accessible from Blackrock?

    Do you have any knowledge of the area?


  • #169
    May Contain Small Parts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭May Contain Small Parts


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    The should close the Sydney parade and Booterstown stations and restore the station at the Merrion gates. The traffic could pass through the gates when the trains are stopped.

    You're giving ways that the scheme could be avoided...but out of curiousity, why do you think it should be avoided?


  • #170
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    The Merrion gates are as close to St Vincents as Sydney parade. The schools are accessible from Blackrock. The gates have to close anyway once a train leaves either Booterstown or Sydney parade.

    Neither of those statements are correct.

    The current timetable tries to get the N and S bound trains to cross at Merrion Gates. That would be pointless if they both have to stop.


  • #171
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Neither of those statements are correct.

    The current timetable tries to get the N and S bound trains to cross at Merrion Gates. That would be pointless if they both have to stop.

    On the 10 minute cycle, they will almost never cross. They might as well be closed permanently.


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  • #172
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    On the 10 minute cycle, they will almost never cross. They might as well be closed permanently.

    That was the plan - build a bridge at a cost of €5 m to €15 million, depending on where the bridge is built.


  • #173
    Bray Head
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 896 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    Booterstown is actually used by 1,600 DART passengers a day.

    About on a par with Greystones.

    If I was to target any southside station it would be Seapoint which gets half the use - although I'm not sure it would speed up the service much.


  • #174
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,295 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    The should close the Sydney parade and Booterstown stations and restore the station at the Merrion gates. The traffic could pass through the gates when the trains are stopped.

    Why not just close all the stations, you'll be able to get from nowhere to nowhere instantly :rolleyes:


  • #175
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Bray Head wrote: »
    Booterstown is actually used by 1,600 DART passengers a day.

    About on a par with Greystones.

    If I was to target any southside station it would be Seapoint which gets half the use - although I'm not sure it would speed up the service much.
    If Booterstown was transferred to the Merrion Road bottle bank it would be even busier. passengers would get off on the main road instead of at the end of a stupid car park.


  • #176
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    If Booterstown was transferred to the Merrion Road bottle bank it would be even busier. passengers would get off on the main road instead of at the end of a stupid car park.

    So you want to move a station nearly a kilometre up the track, making an already notorious bottleneck worse, just to so people won't have to walk 100 metres to get to the main road. Many of whom will now have further to walk to get to their final destinations because the station has been moved further away, by the way.

    I'm sorry, but none of your suggestions make any sense. They don't seem to solve any actual problems, and even if they did, any potential value is far outweighed by the additional difficulties they will create. There is nothing to be gained by building a station next to the crossing in it current configuration.


  • #177
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    If Booterstown was transferred to the Merrion Road bottle bank it would be even busier. passengers would get off on the main road instead of at the end of a stupid car park.

    The Merrion Gates stop was not an alternative to Booterstown, it was an alternative to Sydney Parade.

    There is no significant traffic generator to be served by a stop at Merrion Gates, while there at both Booterstown and Sydney Parade.

    Stopping trains at Merrion Gates would lead to longer gate closures.

    Bus Connects may be used to reignite the closure proposal. Let us hope.


  • #178
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The Merrion Gates stop was not an alternative to Booterstown, it was an alternative to Sydney Parade.

    There is no significant traffic generator to be served by a stop at Merrion Gates, while there at both Booterstown and Sydney Parade.

    Stopping trains at Merrion Gates would lead to longer gate closures.

    Bus Connects may be used to reignite the closure proposal. Let us hope.

    Vincents Hospital, the new national Maternity Hospital and the Elm Park development and UCD would all generate traffic for a stop beside Merrion Gates. If Booterstown and Sydney parade were closed, it would be very busy.


  • #179
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Vincents Hospital, the new national Maternity Hospital and the Elm Park development and UCD would all generate traffic for a stop beside Merrion Gates. If Booterstown and Sydney parade were closed, it would be very busy.

    Why close busy stations? Sydney Parade serves Vincent's - the new maternity hospital is going to be in Vincent's - within it - not on another site.

    There is no plan and no justification for anything close to what you are suggesting.


  • #180
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Why close busy stations? Sydney Parade serves Vincent's - the new maternity hospital is going to be in Vincent's - within it - not on another site.

    There is no plan and no justification for anything close to what you are suggesting.

    There are too many stations. Too many stops, hence more delay.


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  • #181
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,398 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    There are too many stations. Too many stops, hence more delay.

    Stations aren't delays.


  • #182
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    CatInABox wrote: »
    Stations aren't delays.

    If a train stops, it is delayed. how do passengers get on and off at a station unless the train stops? With Health & Safety and all that, they can't do it on the fly.


  • #183
    Grassey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Grassey


    If a train stops at a scheduled stop its on schedule... If it stops for 'moron ran the stop light and struck the Merrion gates' that's a delay


  • #184
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Grassey wrote: »
    If a train stops at a scheduled stop its on schedule... If it stops for 'moron ran the stop light and struck the Merrion gates' that's a delay

    If a train stops on its schedule, every passenger who is not alighting is delayed pending their arrival at their destination stop. Fewer stops mean that the train reaches its termini faster.


  • #185
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    If a train stops on its schedule, every passenger who is not alighting is delayed pending their arrival at their destination stop. Fewer stops mean that the train reaches its termini faster.

    If their destination stop is one of the stations you want to close, they're delayed even further.

    In any case, I'm not sure what this has to do with the thread topic. The same number of trains will be running through the Merrion Gates crossing regardless of the number of stations they stop it, so the current problems will persist. And putting a station next to Merrion Gates will only exacerbate matters.


  • #186
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/nta-opposes-merrion-road-development-over-busconnects-concerns-1.3815617


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  • #187
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,987 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    marno21 wrote: »
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/nta-opposes-merrion-road-development-over-busconnects-concerns-1.3815617

    4733/18 http://www.dublincity.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/wphappcriteria.display?paSearchKey=4140308


  • #188
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,398 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    marno21 wrote: »
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/nta-opposes-merrion-road-development-over-busconnects-concerns-1.3815617

    The NTA are probably in shock at being on the same side as local residents.


  • #189
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,295 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    They don't want buildings over 3 floors or a flyover, but they're fine with horrendous grinding traffic jams twice a day ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


  • #190
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    They don't want buildings over 3 floors or a flyover, but they're fine with horrendous grinding traffic jams twice a day ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    I think you are talking about the local residents, not the NTA.

    Personally, I think the road through the car parks should be an underpass rather than a bridge - much less visual impact.

    Eight stories on that sight would be out of scale. They paid €18 million for the site and with 66 apartments, that gives a site value for each apartment at €270 k before any work. Apartments are about 100 sq m each, so will be very expensive. Merrion Village is across the road and I think goes to six floors at the back of a much larger site. Six floors would reduce the number of apartments to 50, and cost per apartment would rise to €360 k.


  • #191
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,295 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Personally, I think the road through the car parks should be an underpass rather than a bridge - much less visual impact.

    But there's virtually no visual impact from the bridge! It goes between a church and commercial buildings, almost completely hidden. Nothing against an underpass but it would be vastly more expensive and complex.

    This aversion we have in this country to anything above head height is slightly bonkers. Chopping 2 storeys off a block of flats won't do anything to help the area's chronic traffic problems. The state needs to grow some backbone and get serious about infrastructure.


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  • #192
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    But there's virtually no visual impact from the bridge! It goes between a church and commercial buildings, almost completely hidden. Nothing against an underpass but it would be vastly more expensive and complex.

    This aversion we have in this country to anything above head height is slightly bonkers. Chopping 2 storeys off a block of flats won't do anything to help the area's chronic traffic problems. The state needs to grow some backbone and start getting serious about infrastructure.

    Was this Scheme scrapped due to local opposition?


  • #193
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,295 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    Was this Scheme scrapped due to local opposition?

    Pretty much! The state folded like a cheap suit, as usual.


  • #194
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Which is beyond disappointing because it's an absolute no brainer of a scheme with large benefits.


  • #195
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    Pretty much! The state folded like a cheap suit, as usual.

    Look you can read this place (state, public) like a book. If they don’t have the balls to do stuff, that isn’t even contentious, why are they proposing them in the first place ?

    You could have a plan that had no downsides and your resident idiots would object. “No “ to change “ no” to progress etc. these people have nothing else to do ...


  • #196
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    But there's virtually no visual impact from the bridge! It goes between a church and commercial buildings, almost completely hidden. Nothing against an underpass but it would be vastly more expensive and complex.

    This aversion we have in this country to anything above head height is slightly bonkers. Chopping 2 storeys off a block of flats won't do anything to help the area's chronic traffic problems. The state needs to grow some backbone and get serious about infrastructure.

    Not quite. It passes within a few metres of houses to the N and E of the proposed bridge. It would be completely hidden as an underpass. Why would it be much more expensive? It was proposed to put an underpass at the Merrion Gates site for pedestrians, just metres from the tidal beach - spring tide could well flood it.

    To cross a railway, it needs to go up or down by 5 metres.


  • #197
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Is this another scheme long fingered, but which traffic will force at some point ? Like with the thousands of new fb employees in the area etc ?


  • #198
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    Is this another scheme long fingered, but which traffic will force at some point ? Like with the thousands of new fb employees in the area etc ?

    It really was part of the ten minute dart project but hidden as part of the cycle project for a coastal cycleway out to Salthill. It also included extra bus lanes.


  • #199
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,295 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Not quite. It passes within a few metres of houses to the N and E of the proposed bridge. It would be completely hidden as an underpass. Why would it be much more expensive? It was proposed to put an underpass at the Merrion Gates site for pedestrians, just metres from the tidal beach - spring tide could well flood it.

    To cross a railway, it needs to go up or down by 5 metres.

    Tunnels cost more than bridges.

    I'm not against it, I just don't see the need when a bridge is perfectly fine. It passes a few houses yes. The daily traffic jams affect hundreds of houses and thousands of commuters.


  • #200
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    Tunnels cost more than bridges.

    I'm not against it, I just don't see the need when a bridge is perfectly fine. It passes a few houses yes. The daily traffic jams affect hundreds of houses and thousands of commuters.

    Hardly a tunnel.

    It is a bridge with the railway on top, rather than the road on top. Going up needs a ramp requiring fill, going down requires excavation of spoil. What is the difference?


  • #201
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,295 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Hardly a tunnel.

    It is a bridge with the railway on top, rather than the road on top. Going up needs a ramp requiring fill, going down requires excavation of spoil. What is the difference?

    It costs more. Going under a live railway also means disrupting the railway. May as well just elevate the railway and do a surface road under it.

    Either way the NIMBYS wouldn't be happy! They want their choking fume fix twice a day. Who cares how bad the pollution is so long as its all on one surface level :rolleyes:

    My own preference for this junction would be a road overpass continuing south from Strand road alongside the coast, and up and over around where the Texaco garage is. Plenty of room. But I believe there are EU environmental rules preventing this.


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