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Saturday the 18th

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    #32
    RivetingRoger
    Registered Users Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭RivetingRoger


    HarshOstrich wrote: »
    Chacun has his measure

    Complete hype horse
    Defi will ate him


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    #33
    Kauto
    Registered Users Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Kauto


    RivetingRoger wrote: »
    Complete hype horse
    Defi will ate him

    Wouldn't have Defi at all over 2M in March unless it came up soft.


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    #34
    RivetingRoger
    Registered Users Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭RivetingRoger


    Kauto wrote: »
    Wouldn't have Defi at all over 2M in March unless it came up soft.

    Some people just refuse to give this horse his dues!
    Its gas! Beats all before him as a juv hurdler beats all before him as a novice mid range chaser
    beats all before him as a 2m chaser.....
    Wins on all ground types

    What do ye want


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    #35
    HarshOstrich
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭HarshOstrich


    RivetingRoger wrote: »
    Some people just refuse to give this horse his dues!
    Its gas! Beats all before him as a juv hurdler beats all before him as a novice mid range chaser
    beats all before him as a 2m chaser.....
    Wins on all ground types

    What do ye want

    Didnt beat chacun


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    #36
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    HarshOstrich wrote: »
    Yep super warm up race, wasn't at his peak as you can see when he travelled the best that day and tired late on.

    Looks a very soft looking horse. You can make the same argument for A Plus Tard surely?

    I also don't think a horse which has run 4 times should be as highly regarded. He looked good at Punchestown but the season was over then, a lot of horses were just turning up for a bit of feed money. I reckon a pile of hype, certainly not a 4/1 chance, the bookies are phucking chancing their arms there, especially considering Defi de seuil has now won 7 grade 1's and is available at 5/2. Madness if you ask me.

    If you don't fancy Defi de Sueil then you have to beat Altior and or maybe even Douvan ( who I wouldn't fancy either ).

    I think the price of 4/1 is a joke and I think anyone thinking Chacun Por Soi is the new coming needs to be rational about what he has achieved. For the record I don't think he beat all that much at Punchestown either, albeit I would say you could argue Defi De Seuil had a hard season for his 4/1/2 lengths. I think the Duc needs a bog and I am not bothered about any other in the race. As I said they were jogging around for feed money.

    Chacun should be about 12 or 16 to one on what he has shown so far.


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    #37
    RivetingRoger
    Registered Users Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭RivetingRoger


    HarshOstrich wrote: »
    Didnt beat chacun

    In an end of season gallop v a horse fresh as a daisy FFS lol


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    #38
    HarshOstrich
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭HarshOstrich


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    Looks a very soft looking horse. You can make the same argument for A Plus Tard surely?

    I also don't think a horse which has run 4 times should be as highly regarded. He looked good at Punchestown but the season was over then, a lot of horses were just turning up for a bit of feed money. I reckon a pile of hype, certainly not a 4/1 chance, the bookies are phucking chancing their arms there, especially considering Defi de seuil has now won 7 grade 1's and is available at 5/2. Madness if you ask me.

    If you don't fancy Defi de Sueil then you have to beat Altior and or maybe even Douvan ( who I wouldn't fancy either ).

    I think the price of 4/1 is a joke and I think anyone thinking Chacun Por Soi is the new coming needs to be rational about what he has achieved. For the record I don't think he beat all that much at Punchestown either, albeit I would say you could argue Defi De Seuil had a hard season for his 4/1/2 lengths. I think the Duc needs a bog and I am not bothered about any other in the race. As I said they were jogging around for feed money.

    Chacun should be about 12 or 16 to one on what he has shown so far.

    A plus tard had its first run before that race.
    At the moment im chacun,defi,altior for champ chase, if ground is soft i would actually favour defi.


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    #39
    stretchaq
    Registered Users Posts: 567 ✭✭✭stretchaq


    I don’t think chacon is even the best 2 miler in Willie really like cilios emery


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    #40
    lemush
    Registered Users Posts: 680 ✭✭✭lemush


    Defi the most likely winner in an open Champion Chase but he’s quite beatable. He hasn’t beaten one top two miler over fences. And sorry an 11 and 12yo UDS doesn’t count.

    The one specialist two miler he came across beat him senseless at Ptown. To say he was def over the top that day is lazy analysis, I’d be more inclined to believe it if he had gone to Aintree after Chelt but he didn’t.


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    #41
    BoldReason
    Closed Accounts Posts: 704 ✭✭✭BoldReason


    I'd be worried enough about Chacun handling Cheltenham myself. Think he will chuck it in when he sees the hill. I'd have him double the price he currently is.


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    #42
    posturingpat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,722 ✭✭✭posturingpat


    Did I see someone say Townend can't settle a horse?
    I'm hoping it's a wind up.


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    #43
    Francie Barrett
    Registered Users Posts: 16,393 ✭✭✭✭Francie Barrett


    Un De Sceaux is a lovely horse, but at 12 years of age with a lot of races under its belt, it was always going to struggle in a sprint finish.

    With that said, I wouldn't be too impressed with the winner.

    Marracjuda is rated 143 and finished just 7 lengths off Defi and has the following formline.

    Didn't jump with fluency, held up in last, going easily 3 out, pushed along and went third after 2 out, ridden and no impression when not fluent last (vet said gelding bled from the nose)


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    #44
    Clique
    Registered Users Posts: 162 ✭✭Clique


    posturingpat wrote: »
    Did I see someone say Townend can't settle a horse?
    I'm hoping it's a wind up.

    Nobody said that about Townend, it was about Nico on Pentland Hills


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    #45
    posturingpat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,722 ✭✭✭posturingpat


    Clique wrote: »
    Nobody said that about Townend, it was about Nico on Pentland Hills

    That makes a lot more sense. Apologies, my phone kept freezing everytime I tried to go back and check.


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    #46
    The Mig
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,034 Mod ✭✭✭✭The Mig


    At least we have a nice champion chase to look forward too instead of a procession


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    #47
    Scott Tenorman
    Registered Users Posts: 508 ✭✭✭Scott Tenorman


    Altior dominates this division for years, barely gets any credit as he is beating the same horses over again.

    Defi wins a couple of races in the same division and is suddenly the best horse in training?

    Does not compute


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    #48
    Morgans
    Registered Users Posts: 4,353 ✭✭✭Morgans


    Scott Tenorman wrote: »
    Altior dominates this division for years, barely gets any credit as he is beating the same horses over again.

    Defi wins a couple of races in the same division and is suddenly the best horse in training?

    Does not compute

    Altior struggles to beat Politilogue and Sceau Royale by a 1l and 11/2l in the champion chase having been outpaced. It is seen as one of the greatest racehorses of all time and one of the great performances. Defi de Seuil beats same horses by 10l in the Tingle Creek and you get people saying he hasnt beaten a 2 miler yet. Un de Sceuax despite being 11, and now 12, has had his optimum conditions in the last two races. He isnt as good as he was, but yesterday he was treated with disdain. In fact, Altior beating UDS in his last Tingle Creek to me was his best performance.

    Give me Defi, all day, every day, to beat altior at all distances.


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    #49
    posturingpat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,722 ✭✭✭posturingpat


    Morgans wrote: »
    Altior struggles to beat Politilogue and Sceau Royale by a 1l and 11/2l in the champion chase having been outpaced. It is seen as one of the greatest racehorses of all time and one of the great performances. Defi de Seuil beats same horses by 10l in the Tingle Creek and you get people saying he hasnt beaten a 2 miler yet. Un de Sceuax despite being 11, and now 12, has had his optimum conditions in the last two races. He isnt as good as he was, but yesterday he was treated with disdain. In fact, Altior beating UDS in his last Tingle Creek to me was his best performance.

    Give me Defi, all day, every day, to beat altior at all distances.

    Who in the name of Jesus said that.


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    #50
    HarshOstrich
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭HarshOstrich


    Morgans wrote: »
    Altior struggles to beat Politilogue and Sceau Royale by a 1l and 11/2l in the champion chase having been outpaced. It is seen as one of the greatest racehorses of all time and one of the great performances. Defi de Seuil beats same horses by 10l in the Tingle Creek and you get people saying he hasnt beaten a 2 miler yet. Un de Sceuax despite being 11, and now 12, has had his optimum conditions in the last two races. He isnt as good as he was, but yesterday he was treated with disdain. In fact, Altior beating UDS in his last Tingle Creek to me was his best performance.

    Give me Defi, all day, every day, to beat altior at all distances.

    He wasn't treated with distain, to yourself and the other people who fail to see what happened,UDS made a mistake and slowed down as defi quickened and that was the race over, there was very little he could do in the end.
    All the defi supporters are pretending UDS ran his best race yesterday.
    The mistake was the moment of the race,if he winged it beleive me there would of been a battle.


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    #51
    RivetingRoger
    Registered Users Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭RivetingRoger


    Scott Tenorman wrote: »
    Altior dominates this division for years, barely gets any credit as he is beating the same horses over again.

    Defi wins a couple of races in the same division and is suddenly the best horse in training?

    Does not compute

    Barely gets any credit....
    What ****e is that ya spouting


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    #52
    lemush
    Registered Users Posts: 680 ✭✭✭lemush


    Morgans wrote: »
    Altior struggles to beat Politilogue and Sceau Royale by a 1l and 11/2l in the champion chase having been outpaced. It is seen as one of the greatest racehorses of all time and one of the great performances. Defi de Seuil beats same horses by 10l in the Tingle Creek and you get people saying he hasnt beaten a 2 miler yet. Un de Sceuax despite being 11, and now 12, has had his optimum conditions in the last two races. He isnt as good as he was, but yesterday he was treated with disdain. In fact, Altior beating UDS in his last Tingle Creek to me was his best performance.

    Give me Defi, all day, every day, to beat altior at all distances.

    You do realise being seen as one of the greats after that CC was probably due to the fact that it was his 18th consecutive victory? It was never heralded as a one of the great performances but nice try.

    Using Sceau Royal having his first run of the campaign running no race as a yardstick with which to elevate Defis performance is laughable but by that logic you could also use the horse that was one length behind Sceau Royal in Dolos to downgrade the performance but that wouldn’t fit the narrative.


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    #53
    Morgans
    Registered Users Posts: 4,353 ✭✭✭Morgans


    HarshOstrich wrote: »
    He wasn't treated with distain, to yourself and the other people who fail to see what happened,UDS made a mistake and slowed down as defi quickened and that was the race over, there was very little he could do in the end.
    All the defi supporters are pretending UDS ran his best race yesterday.
    The mistake was the moment of the race,if he winged it beleive me there would of been a battle.

    Race was over when Townsend upped a gear 3 out and tried to get Geraghty at it. For a few strides it was in the balance but before they straightened out DDS was upsides, going better. He took off in front at the second last without Geraghty ever needing to get serious. Race was done then UDS was slow and after that DDS came home as he wanted.

    UDS was outspeeded and immediate reaction was that UDS should have put more pace into the race. I don't think it would have mattered. He was beaten by a far better improving horse where UDS, is a few pounds off his best, even in heavy. At their best, I'd have DDS as the better, more talented horse in any case.


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    #54
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    I wouldn't be writing Altior off for a second. Not an inch, he is one of the best horses of the last 20 years and he only needs to get it right once. If he turns up to Cheltenham fit and well he would have a great chance, wherever he goes.

    I remember people writing Sprinter Sacre off a few years back, bad idea, Henderson knows what to do.


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    #55
    Morgans
    Registered Users Posts: 4,353 ✭✭✭Morgans


    lemush wrote: »
    You do realise being seen as one of the greats after that CC was probably due to the fact that it was his 18th consecutive victory? It was never heralded as a one of the great performances but nice try.

    Using Sceau Royal having his first run of the campaign running no race as a yardstick with which to elevate Defis performance is laughable but by that logic you could also use the horse that was one length behind Sceau Royal in Dolos to downgrade the performance but that wouldn’t fit the narrative.

    The claim was made that he hasn't beaten a 2m yet, while altior has been struggling to beat the same and worse horses for the past two years.


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    #56
    Morgans
    Registered Users Posts: 4,353 ✭✭✭Morgans


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    I wouldn't be writing Altior off for a second. Not an inch, he is one of the best horses of the last 20 years and he only needs to get it right once. If he turns up to Cheltenham fit and well he would have a great chance, wherever he goes.

    I remember people writing Sprinter Sacre off a few years back, bad idea, Henderson knows what to do.

    I am writing off Altior, as a 2m. A place lay for me. I'd hope there is something to be against him in the Game Spirit Even when he was at his best he was never impressive at Cheltenham. Of course he would have a chance. Hardly controversial.


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    #57
    lemush
    Registered Users Posts: 680 ✭✭✭lemush


    Morgans wrote: »
    The claim was made that he hasn't beaten a 2m yet, while altior has been struggling to beat the same and worse horses for the past two years.

    You’re handpicking lines of form to try prove a narrative.


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    #58
    Morgans
    Registered Users Posts: 4,353 ✭✭✭Morgans


    lemush wrote: »
    You’re handpicking lines of fine to try prove a narrative.

    You aren't dealing with the issue. What are the horses that DDS needs to beat to prove himself a 2m like Altior?

    Altior beat Sceau Royal (Sandown and Chelt) politologue (Chelt), which despite being campaigned over 2m4f last year, he has happened to beat this year. Un de sceaux. Defi likewise has beaten him twice. Whether they ran to form is irrelevant. I wouldn't view them as legitimate contenders for the champion chase in any case. Altior however, as evidenced earlier, is viewed as a superstar performance for beating them. He hasn't put up a superstar performance for 18 months.

    So we are looking at Willie's as the challengers.

    Throwing insults around when you only half know what you are talking about us dangerous. Dolos?


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    #59
    lemush
    Registered Users Posts: 680 ✭✭✭lemush


    Morgans wrote: »
    You aren't dealing with the issue. What are the horses that DDS needs to beat to prove himself a 2m like Altior?

    Altior beat Sceau Royal (Sandown and Chelt) politologue (Chelt), which despite being campaigned over 2m4f last year, he has happened to beat this year. Un de sceaux. Defi likewise has beaten him twice. Whether they ran to form is irrelevant. I wouldn't view them as legitimate contenders for the champion chase in any case. Altior however, as evidenced earlier, is viewed as a superstar performance for beating them. He hasn't put up a superstar performance for 18 months.

    So we are looking at Willie's as the challengers.

    Throwing insults around when you only half know what you are talking about us dangerous. Dolos?

    I ask you again, what “superstar performance” was Altior credited with when beating SR and Poli? Still looking for them insults, Dolos?


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    #60
    Scott Tenorman
    Registered Users Posts: 508 ✭✭✭Scott Tenorman


    RivetingRoger wrote: »
    Barely gets any credit....
    What ****e is that ya spouting

    Not sh*te in the same league as claiming DDS is the best horse in training LOL :p


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    #61
    Morgans
    Registered Users Posts: 4,353 ✭✭✭Morgans


    lemush wrote: »
    I ask you again, what “superstar performance” was Altior credited with when beating SR and Poli? Still looking for them insults, Dolos?

    Its very boring to explain, given that its not the purpose of the post and its only nitpicking for it to be picked up on to the exclusion of the rest of the post.

    There were plenty on here and the internet in general who treated last year's champion chase as the performance of a superstar (rather than a superstar performance per se) and I apologise if I didnt phrase it as such. I hope I didnt upset anyone but again it was a very minor part of the point that was being made. I will try to be more careful in future.

    It was clear before the race vs Cyrname that the relatively mediocre performances that Altior was capable of were forgotten, as if there was some cheek in expecting Cyrname to be able to compete. Simply looking at his winning sequence was enough and proclaiming again how he is a superstar regardless of form. The worry for ante post punters was after Altior won the King George, Henderson would have to be tempted to go for the Gold Cup. Still have remnants of the attitude in this thread.

    Now, getting on to handpicking form to suit a narrative. Something that I wasnt doing. Its something that several nitpickers get involve in. The point was made that DDS has yet to beat a 2m yet has beaten the same horses Altior beat in last year's Champion Chase and Sandown (if youd prefer) by further, having run in three races over the distance. I am not interested in figuring out who is the better horse by weighing up Dolos, Sceau Royale, Politilogue, Marracudja etc, which is what I would have done if I was handpicking form to suit a narrative.

    Altior is now wildly overrated and Defi du Seuil underrated. Whether this is a correct opinion we will find out at cheltenham I guess, but your nitpicking attitude is a reminder why having to explain why beforehand is so tedious. I'll remember that before posting again.


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