Management Company Installed Gates

Aoife_Byrne · 10-12-2019 10:39pm #1

Hi, can anyone advise re thisplease:My management company has erected gates around my apartment complex without any agreement from any residents. These gates will be locked with access given by ringing a number on a mobile phone to only people who are not in arrears hense blocking people from entering their own property. Can they do this? Is there anyone I can contact regarding this?

is_that_so · 10-12-2019 10:42pm

Aoife_Byrne wrote: »

Hi, can anyone advise re thisplease:My management company has erected gates around my apartment complex without any agreement from any residents. These gates will be locked with access given by ringing a number on a mobile phone to only people who are not in arrears hense blocking people from entering their own property. Can they do this? Is there anyone I can contact regarding this?

I'd say they can't and it sounds illegal to me, but a solicitor could tell you for sure and you should get on to one ASAP. Has this actually been confirmed in writing re arrears?

punisher5112 · 10-12-2019 10:42pm

Aoife_Byrne wrote: »

My management company has erected gates around my apartment complex without any agreement from any residents. These gates will be locked with access given by ringing a number on a mobile phone to only people who are not in arrears hense blocking people from entering their own property. Can they do this? Is there anyone I can contact regarding this?

Of course they can as you don't own the grounds....

You own or rent basically the inside walls of the apartment and everything outside is controlled by management company.

You do know this will be made up of property owners a GM will be held to discuss.

I wouldn't be complaining of having a much more secure place.

Mike3549 · 10-12-2019 10:46pm

Aoife_Byrne wrote: »

Hi, can anyone advise re thisplease:My management company has erected gates around my apartment complex without any agreement from any residents. These gates will be locked with access given by ringing a number on a mobile phone to only people who are not in arrears hense blocking people from entering their own property. Can they do this? Is there anyone I can contact regarding this?

Were you at the last AGM? If you paid your fees this shouldnt bother you

Edit: they are not blocking entrance to your property, they are blocking entrance to common areas

Aoife_Byrne · 10-12-2019 10:49pm

Don't get me wrong I'm not complaining of a safer place... I'm complaining of my access being block to my property? The gates were erected without any agreement at an agm.. Even the director on the management company wasn't aware

Aoife_Byrne · 10-12-2019 10:52pm

Yes iv been emailed to say they cannot process my application for the access system until the arrears are paid or an acceptable agreement is reached. I was in an agreement and have proof, he's saying there was no agreement made! Very difficult person to deal with.

is_that_so · 10-12-2019 10:53pm

Mike3549 wrote: »

Were you at the last AGM? If you paid your fees this shouldnt bother you

Edit: they are not blocking entrance to your property, they are blocking entrance to common areas

By the sounds they are blocking access to the individual properties. They can only attempt to prevent non-residents accessing the common areas, not residents. Who knows how many are tenants rather than owners. They are not responsible. Very draconian approach IMO and I would think illegal. But I guess they think it's cheaper than going to court. I'd also say Joe would have a ball with this one!

Aoife_Byrne · 10-12-2019 10:54pm

Mike3549 wrote: »

Were you at the last AGM? If you paid your fees this shouldnt bother you

Edit: they are not blocking entrance to your property, they are blocking entrance to common areas

They are blocking entrance to my property?!

Aoife_Byrne · 10-12-2019 10:56pm

is_that_so wrote: »

By the sounds they are blocking access to the individual properties. They can only attempt to prevent non-residents accessing the common areas, not residents. Who knows how many are tenants rather than owners. They are not responsible. Very draconian approach IMO and I would think illegal. But I guess they think it's cheaper than going to court. I'd also say Joe would have a ball with this one!

Yes many people have suggested Joe would love it!

is_that_so · 10-12-2019 10:56pm

Aoife_Byrne wrote: »

Yes iv been emailed to say they cannot process my application for the access system until the arrears are paid or an acceptable agreement is reached. I was in an agreement and have proof, he's saying there was no agreement made! Very difficult person to deal with.

Definitely solicitor time so just to see how this whole thing stacks up legally. Maybe you can get together with others in the same boat and discuss it. Is it an Owners' Management Company? Is there any way you can call an EGM over it?

Mike3549 · 10-12-2019 10:58pm

Aoife_Byrne wrote: »

They are blocking entrance to my property?!

Not really, only common area, they didnt change your locks.

Edit: you know you dont own the property, only a lease

kravmaga · 10-12-2019 11:00pm

Aoife_Byrne wrote: »

Yes iv been emailed to say they cannot process my application for the access system until the arrears are paid or an acceptable agreement is reached. I was in an agreement and have proof, he's saying there was no agreement made! Very difficult person to deal with.

Why don't you set up a Standing Order for the annual mgt fee to be paid that way.

Any Judge will see that you have been co-operative and are trying to pay the annual fee.

If you are in arrears, try and look at taking out a credit union loan to clear it.

Aoife_Byrne · 10-12-2019 11:05pm

kravmaga wrote: »

Why don't you set up a Standing Order for the annual mgt fee to be paid that way.

Any Judge will see that you have been co-operative and are trying to pay the annual fee.

If you are in arrears, try and look at taking out a credit union loan to clear it.

I have a standing order going the past few years, I'm a bit behind due to unforseen circumstances and have submitted a proposal to pay arrears

is_that_so · 10-12-2019 11:06pm

Mike3549 wrote: »

Not really, only common area, they didnt change your locks.

Edit: you know you dont own the property, only a lease

What are you on about? You own the property within the building and are entitled access to that property, which BTW is not owned by the management company.

Aoife_Byrne · 10-12-2019 11:07pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Definitely solicitor time so just to see how this whole thing stacks up legally. Maybe you can get together with others in the same boat and discuss it. Is it an Owners' Management Company? Is there any way you can call an EGM over it?

I think I will ring a solicitor in the morning for advice. The only way to call a meeting wud be to knock on every single door, not really feasible

is_that_so · 10-12-2019 11:08pm

Aoife_Byrne wrote: »

I think I will ring a solicitor in the morning for advice. The only way to call a meeting wud be to knock on every single door, not really feasible

For your peace of mind it is probably the best move. Best of luck!

Graham · 10-12-2019 11:09pm

Mod Note

Threads merged.

Aoife_Byrne · 10-12-2019 11:11pm

Mike3549 wrote: »

Not really, only common area, they didnt change your locks.

Edit: you know you dont own the property, only a lease

Yes they are blocking my access to an apartment I own, I asked for useful advise on whether they are in the right or wrong please not stupid statements

andekwarhola · 10-12-2019 11:15pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Definitely solicitor time so just to see how this whole thing stacks up legally

Might be better off putting potential solicitors fees into those service charge arrears.

is_that_so · 10-12-2019 11:20pm

andekwarhola wrote: »

Might be better off putting potential solicitors fees into those service charge arrears.

There seems to be an arrangement according to the OP. Real issue appears to be a unilateral decision by the management company to restrict access to collect arrears. Even fully paid up I'd want to know what the legal deal was. Arrears are a pain but OMCs apparently doing as they please are as much of a problem.

andekwarhola · 10-12-2019 11:24pm

is_that_so wrote: »

There seems to be an arrangement according to the OP. Real issue appears to be a unilateral decision by the management company to restrict access to collect arrears. Even fully paid up I'd want to know what the legal deal was. Arrears are a pain but OMCs apparently doing as they please are as much of a problem.

Could have been agreed at AGM. OP seems a bit vague about the details and sounds like they didn't attend the AGM. Sounds like it's become a gated development and access restricted to fee payers. Doubt an OMC would do that without AGM vote?

Aoife_Byrne · 10-12-2019 11:30pm

andekwarhola wrote: »

Could have been agreed at AGM. OP seems a bit vague about the details and sounds like they didn't attend the AGM. Sounds like it's become a gated development and access restricted to fee payers. Doubt an OMC would do that without AGM vote?

They did it without a vote... It was mentioned at agms once or twice over the past few years but never actually agreed upon

andekwarhola · 10-12-2019 11:36pm

Aoife_Byrne wrote: »

They did it without a vote... It was mentioned at agms once or twice over the past few years but never actually agreed upon

Is the financial situation of the OMC pretty critical with regards to unpaid service charges?

By the way, there's no way the directors didn't know. Who else authorized it?

Delta2113 · 10-12-2019 11:38pm

Check with Dublin Fire Brigade if they are happy with this in case off an emergency happening or it's a health and safety issue.

ShaneODub · 10-12-2019 11:51pm

Are they blocking all access routes, or just one/some of the entrances?

STB. · 10-12-2019 11:52pm

Aoife_Byrne wrote: »

They did it without a vote... It was mentioned at agms once or twice over the past few years but never actually agreed upon

I assume you are talking about car access gates.

The management company is made up of other owner representatives. Have you attempted to talk to any of them ?

As much it pains me to tell you this, the management company cannot block access to your apartment because you haven't paid your management fees.

pinkypinky · 10-12-2019 11:52pm

There's some confusion between the management company (of which all owners are a part. There will be a board of directors) and the managing agent, which will be a company appointed by the board of directors to run the development.

Apartment owners usually have a 999 year lease on their specific apartment.

The agent cannot erect gates without the board's approval. It is unlikely the board would do this without it being voted on - not least because there's presumably significant capital expenditure. This could have been at an AGM or an EGM, for which there should have been proper notice.

I have heard anecdotally of OMC's trying to block access to common areas to force owners to pay service charges but it's a very extreme measure and I doubt it has a solid legal basis.

OP needs to get complete facts and definitely consult a solicitor.

Caranica · 10-12-2019 11:53pm

Check AGM/EGM minutes and also planning permission applications as gates of this nature would need pp.

Management company directors are charged with acting in the best interests of all the owners and depending on your articles of association can make significant decisions without needing a vote.

Doing something as drastic as this suggests unpaid fees are a major problem. Owners signed legal documents agreeing to pay management fees, those fees are needed to run the development.

Graham · 10-12-2019 11:56pm

STB. wrote: »

I assume you are talking about car access gates.

I've head of that happening before, restrictions to access parking etc.

Never heard of access to an apartment being prevented.

Qrt · 10-12-2019 11:59pm

There’s also the thing about the phone number, what if someone’s phone dies?

Lantus · 11-12-2019 12:01am

Get your agreement in place, be cooperative and pay all fees in a structured manner. It's good long term to ensure everyone pays as its just too damm easy to opt out. With a high fee income you can hopefully look forwards to a well maintained block with a sinking fund and long term vision for the future. It's a sign the directors actually care, your lucky to have a team putting so much effort in to make things better.

11-12-2019 12:36am

From my reading of the OP, it seems like they OP is unable to access their property without using the gates (ie its not just to prevent car parking, but actually completely prevents access to the complex, including pedestrian access to the apartments).

I'd have assumed this isn't legal, for various reasons. Including the health/safety aspect (what if there's a fire and you're effectively trapped inside, whilst the emergency services are trapped outside, although as a general rule the emergency services locally generally get set up on these gated systems or are given the key codes).

Sounds like OP would be within their right to make forceful entry/exit (ie; damaging the gates). You can't put someone under house arrest, nor effectively evict them because you feel like it.

road_high · 11-12-2019 12:46am

My estate management company base the parking permits on residents paying up- no payment= no permit and there’s a fairly rigorous clamping regime in place! Better just pay the thing, I’m sure it was well flagged ever before you moved in there so I doubt it was a surprise

11-12-2019 12:57am

elperello wrote: »

You could ask a neighbour what is the number to open the gate.

According to the OP it's a phone system.

My experience of these is that you get a phone number and you 'ring the gate', and it opens. However, if your own phone number isn't registered on the system, the gate won't open for you.

So if the number for the gate is 085-1234567, and I'm on the system, i ring it, and the gate opens. But if i give the number to my friend john to let himself in when delivering a sofa for me, it won't open as he isn't registered on the system.

elperello · 11-12-2019 1:08am

Deleted User wrote: »

According to the OP it's a phone system.

My experience of these is that you get a phone number and you 'ring the gate', and it opens. However, if your own phone number isn't registered on the system, the gate won't open for you.

So if the number for the gate is 085-1234567, and I'm on the system, i ring it, and the gate opens. But if i give the number to my friend john to let himself in when delivering a sofa for me, it won't open as he isn't registered on the system.

You are right. I'm sorry for giving bad info.
I should have remembered as I'm registered for a gate myself that I access sometimes.

Del2005 · 11-12-2019 1:34am

Aoife_Byrne wrote: »

Yes iv been emailed to say they cannot process my application for the access system until the arrears are paid or an acceptable agreement is reached. I was in an agreement and have proof, he's saying there was no agreement made! Very difficult person to deal with.

Aoife_Byrne wrote: »

I have a standing order going the past few years, I'm a bit behind due to unforseen circumstances and have submitted a proposal to pay arrears

Are you now in arrears on the arrears? Because the 2nd post would imply that you are.

11-12-2019 8:25am

As anyone who owns a property in a gated development will know, they are expensive bits of kit, to buy and maintain. A board of MC is not going to make a unilateral decision to spend thousands without first discussing it at AGM. Gates like this are not put up over night. A MC has to make sure they have the money, research the types of systems, get prices, the gate company has to measure up, gates have to be specially made, then arrange fitting. I know when we got them, the process took months.

I do not mean to contradict the op, but one of the most frustrating problems Directors experience is getting complaints from members who either didn’t attend AGMs or spent the time on their phones rather than listening to important issues being discussed and decided apon. The op has now said the gates were discussed a couple of times at AGMs. In relation of fire brigade, they have the codes for gates.

handlemaster · 11-12-2019 9:07am

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hmmm · 11-12-2019 9:09am

"Without any agreement from residents" - usually only those who have paid their fees can vote at an AGM.

I doubt any MC has decided to do this out of the blue. Sounds like they've done this to pressure people who are not paying their fees, and sounds like it is working - good on them. If I was the director of a MC I wouldn't be engaging in discussions with individual apartment owners about anything related to the complex, particularly those who haven't paid their fees so I'm not surprised that they are claiming this is a surprise to them.

Hoboo · 11-12-2019 9:21am

handlemaster wrote: »

Have u paid your fees ? Or are you been Irish letting others pay up and your benefiting?

Rather than trolling, it would serve you better to read the thread first, then brush up on your grammar.

Darc19 · 11-12-2019 9:41am

I think the op is not giving the right information.

I'll lay anything that only car park access is closed off to her and she is well able to access via a pedestrian gate.

Basically, the op has not paid the management fees, therefore should not get the benefits of the common areas except to access her door.

Access by foot is as much as necessary.

Op seems to want all the benefits of apartment living without paying for them including public liability insurance, general upkeep, lighting of common areas etc.

Some would call people like this a sponger

Fair play to management company for getting tougher on non payers - all omc's should do similar

11-12-2019 9:56am

Darc19 wrote: »

I think the op is not giving the right information.

I'll lay anything that only car park access is closed off to her and she is well able to access via a pedestrian gate.

Basically, the op has not paid the management fees, therefore should not get the benefits of the common areas except to access her door.

Access by foot is as much as necessary.

Op seems to want all the benefits of apartment living without paying for them including public liability insurance, general upkeep, lighting of common areas etc.

Some would call people like this a sponger

Fair play to management company for getting tougher on non payers - all omc's should do similar

Totally agree, the wording the op is using may be misleading.

When we installed the gating system, all owners were given the keypad number to open the gates, only those who had paid their fees were given programmed zappers and connection to the gates through intercom system for guests. That meant those who hadn’t paid had to get out of cars in the wind and rain to open gates. A lot of subscriptions were paid in the weeks that followed.

In an apartment complex where the parking spaces are not owned by the unit owners, owners may have access through pedestrian gate, but not car entrance.

Op may not have access to the phone system which allows easy entree and opening for guests, but I would suspect the first sentence of this thread would be about having to sleep outside if she wasn’t able to get in to her property.

handlemaster · 11-12-2019 10:21am

Hoboo wrote: »

Rather than trolling, it would serve you better to read the thread first, then brush up on your grammar.

It's not a grammar test love

handlemaster · 11-12-2019 10:22am

handlemaster wrote: »

Mod Note

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Consider this an on thread warning.

We are all the same race

Cuddlesworth · 11-12-2019 10:24am

Graham wrote: »

I've head of that happening before, restrictions to access parking etc.

Never heard of access to an apartment being prevented.

I have, it's usually the common area doors. They change the codes/cards and then refuse to provide ones to the apartments in arrears. Or refuse to provide replacements.

To go to the expense of putting in gates and a access system, they must have a serious arrears problem. It was probably that or go bankrupt.

Homer · 11-12-2019 10:27am

handlemaster wrote: »

We are all the same race

Absolutely.. just some of us were born with manners.

loyatemu · 11-12-2019 10:50am

I've heard of mgmt companies restricting access to parking etc if you are in arrears on the fees, but preventing you getting into your own apartment is a whole other ball game, and surely can't be legal.

Lantus · 11-12-2019 11:18am

loyatemu wrote: »

I've heard of mgmt companies restricting access to parking etc if you are in arrears on the fees, but preventing you getting into your own apartment is a whole other ball game, and surely can't be legal.

Most standard contract leases will specify that both use and right of access to a common area is dependant and contingent on payment of fees. A section of common area usually has to be accessed and used before the apartment owners own front door is reached.

It's not used enough and there is a ticking time bomb of under investment in managed apartment blocks which is yet to hit when major repairs to lifts, roofs and other big building elements hit. You can bet good money that the first to complain the omc didn't do enough are the cohort who didn't pay.

loyatemu · 11-12-2019 11:25am

Lantus wrote: »

Most standard contract leases will specify that both use and right of access to a common area is dependant and contingent on payment of fees. A section of common area usually has to be accessed and used before the apartment owners own front door is reached.

It's not used enough and there is a ticking time bomb of under investment in managed apartment blocks which is yet to hit when major repairs to lifts, roofs and other big building elements hit. You can bet good money that the first to complain the omc didn't do enough are the cohort who didn't pay.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd be surprised if a mgmt company could completely deny someone access to their own apartment. You can put what you like in a lease, it doesn't change the law or the constitution.

Eire Go Brach · 11-12-2019 11:40am

I find this very unlikely happened without a vote.
They can’t spend money without shareholders agreeing on this.
As an owner you are a shareholder. Have you attended all the management meetings?

Remember as an owner you are a shareholder in the management company. You employ an agent to manage the apartments.

Gumbo · 11-12-2019 11:59am

handlemaster wrote: »

We are all the same race

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Management Company Installed Gates

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