New cars vs old cars

gerarda · 24-01-2020 4:27pm #1

Why is it when you look at lots of car adverts for cars that are 10 years old etc that a lot of them specify a list of things that have been replaced after doing only 200k etc. For example, I saw an advert for a 10 year old E class Merc in stunning condition that listed things like water pump, starter and radiator that have all been replaced. I know a man with a 80's Corolla and none of those things have ever been changed. I guess stuff just isn't made to last anymore?

Notch000 · 24-01-2020 4:30pm

i dont think even Toyota are exemp from the odd rad bursting due to age. All the above is just wear and tear tho. People shouldn't be making a big song and dance about doing basic maintenance

colm_mcm · 24-01-2020 4:32pm

If your only criteria is longevity then it’s relatively easy.
Manufacturers also need to factor in weight, safety, cost, ease of manufacture, size etc.

ednwireland · 24-01-2020 5:12pm

gerarda wrote: »

Why is it when you look at lots of car adverts for cars that are 10 years old etc that a lot of them specify a list of things that have been replaced after doing only 200k etc. For example, I saw an advert for a 10 year old E class Merc in stunning condition that listed things like water pump, starter and radiator that have all been replaced. I know a man with a 80's Corolla and none of those things have ever been changed. I guess stuff just isn't made to last anymore?

water pump went on my 88 corolla rad rotted through as well, front shocks replaced when it was between 10 and 15 years old so old cars werent any better.

less complicated, piece of P**s to work on ? yes

zilog_jones · 24-01-2020 5:13pm

Water pump is often done as a precautionary measure along with the timing belt, as you have access it to it when doing that anyway (if it's driven by the belt).

Other two could just be bad luck. Rad could have been from stone damage (or other debris).

SEPT 23 1989 · 24-01-2020 5:15pm

It’s built to last until the warranty runs out

bazz26 · 24-01-2020 5:31pm

Comparing a 10 year old Merc to a 1980s Corolla is not a very fair analogy. The Merc is a lot more complicated in design and therefore there are more components to fail and need replacing. It's like comparing an old Nokia 6310 to an iPhone 10. Cars are also no different to a tv, fridge or mobile phone these days. They are designed and manufactured for a shorter life span otherwise people wouldn't be replacing them with new ones as often. We are a consumer driven throw away society these days.

Wibbs · 24-01-2020 5:38pm

ednwireland wrote: »

less complicated, piece of P**s to work on ? yes

Pretty much this. Cars from say the 90's were less complex with fewer bits and bobs so there's simply fewer things to go wrong. I was with my mechanic mate chatting away about this and was being all cocky about how nothing has gone wrong in my 20 year old yoke, but he pointed out it's little more than wheels an engine and seats and "you were lucky to get fcukin seats".

I'd reckon the peak of that was a period in the 90's where we were well beyond oiling trunnions and setting points, but before the overweight and overcomplex playstation on wheels stage of today. Pre the 90's and certainly pre the 80's cars were usually about as reliable as a baby's arse. Sooner or later they would shit themselves. A trip from Dublin to Cork was a bit of an event with a stop halfway to let the car recover. 100,000 miles on the clock was huge mileage for most and you rarely saw 10-15 even 20 year old cars the way you do today(Morris Minors and 2CV's the odd time, though they were as complex as a hammer so...). Never mind that with a few and notable exceptions, most cars were slower than glacial drift. Which was good as the brakes were more foot operated switches for the brakelights than any good at impeding progress. Most older also cars handled like a drunken one legged man. That's before we get to the levels of luxury and features in even base model modern cars that would make a 70's Rolls Royce feel like a donkey and cart(if you could keep the thing running). As for safety? No contest.

Wibbs · 24-01-2020 5:41pm

zilog_jones wrote: »

Water pump is often done as a precautionary measure along with the timing belt, as you have access it to it when doing that anyway (if it's driven by the belt).

+1. I've never had a water pump fail, but I've put three new ones into the car. Like you say with every belt change, it's best to do it while it's easy to do.

zilog_jones · 24-01-2020 5:54pm

bazz26 wrote: »

Cars are also no different to a tv, fridge or mobile phone these days. They are designed and manufactured for a shorter life span otherwise people wouldn't be replacing them with new ones as often.

I'm not sure cars are the same in this respect - they generally last a lot longer than they used to. Things like engines and bodywork are a hell of a lot more durable than say cars from the '70s which could be rotten in 4 years and have 5-digit odometers because the engines weren't expected to last any longer.

quokula · 24-01-2020 6:40pm

zilog_jones wrote: »

I'm not sure cars are the same in this respect - they generally last a lot longer than they used to. Things like engines and bodywork are a hell of a lot more durable than say cars from the '70s which could be rotten in 4 years and have 5-digit odometers because the engines weren't expected to last any longer.

Yeah I was going to say - my experience is the opposite of what people are describing there. Modern cars are much better made and more reliable than older ones.

bazz26 · 24-01-2020 8:30pm

zilog_jones wrote: »

I'm not sure cars are the same in this respect - they generally last a lot longer than they used to. Things like engines and bodywork are a hell of a lot more durable than say cars from the '70s which could be rotten in 4 years and have 5-digit odometers because the engines weren't expected to last any longer.

How many cars built today will actually still be on the road in 20 years time though? I'd say it be lower than the amount of 20 year old cars on the road today. The products might be a bit more durable but most will be scrapped due to being uneconomical to repair, difficulty getting them insured, more stringent safety and pollution tests, scrappage deals and new cars being more accessible through the likes of cheap PCP deals.

Wibbs · 24-01-2020 10:40pm

zilog_jones wrote: »

have 5-digit odometers because the engines weren't expected to last any longer.

Good point Z. The OP mentioned a 200,000 mile car. That would have been rarer than rocking horse droppings before the 90's and would be on its third rebuild. There were some rare examples that kept going(some 70's Mercs for one), but there is an element of survivor bias too.

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I'd say with modern materials and construction methods you could re-make a air-cooled VW Beetle to survive a nuclear war :pac:

True. With modern materials and construction methods they could make a car last a human lifetime, but they don't... One of Henry Ford's ads for the model T had the tagline, the only car you'll ever need. And he built them that way. The steel for example was vanadium steel, which is highly corrosion resistant(they use it in pipelines and oil rigs and the like). In one of his articles(Octane IIRC) Jay Leno noted this, that if you were looking for a T bodypanel you could find one in a hedge in the wettest swamp, dig it out, rub the steel down with wire wool, paint it and use it. It's also lighter and stronger than carbon steel. It would be cheaper than galvanising too and it's quite "green" with it. So why don't more car makers use it? Again back to planned obsolescence I reckon. EV's are going to lay this short product cycle bare. An EV motor should last many decades. OK Batteries may need replacing, but even then only after a decade or so.

quokula · 25-01-2020 11:42am

bazz26 wrote: »

How many cars built today will actually still be on the road in 20 years time though? I'd say it be lower than the amount of 20 year old cars on the road today. The products might be a bit more durable but most will be scrapped due to being uneconomical to repair, difficulty getting them insured, more stringent safety and pollution tests, scrappage deals and new cars being more accessible through the likes of cheap PCP deals.

I’d wager there’s more cars from the early 2000s on the road right now than there were cars from the early 80s on the road in the year 2000 though.

I remember learning to drive my first car was 10 years old and there was rust in places and endless reliability issues and trips to the garage, and that was pretty much expected at the time. On the other hand I’ve got a 12 year old car right now that has never once in its lifetime broken down or had any unexpected issue.

I agree that financial products and sales tactics may see more cars scrapped before they need to, and who knows what the transition to electric over the next 20 years will do, but I would still say that cars are far better built today than in the past, presumably thanks to a combination of better technology in the factories, modern materials and more stringent safety regulations.

Eric Cartman · 25-01-2020 12:03pm

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I'd say with modern materials and construction methods you could re-make a air-cooled VW Beetle to survive a nuclear war :pac:

The W124 mercedes and the toyota carina E will be running around the deserts till the oil is all gone

beauf · 25-01-2020 12:45pm

gerarda wrote: »

Why is it when you look at lots of car adverts for cars that are 10 years old etc that a lot of them specify a list of things that have been replaced after doing only 200k etc. For example, I saw an advert for a 10 year old E class Merc in stunning condition that listed things like water pump, starter and radiator that have all been replaced. I know a man with a 80's Corolla and none of those things have ever been changed. I guess stuff just isn't made to last anymore?

Does the Corolla owner even know what's changed? Usually owners of Corollas take no interest in cars and just get the dealer to service it.

That said most (not all) of the Japanese cars I've owned have had far less niggles than the German cars I've owned. On one Japanese car I failed the NCt because the indicators had faded to almost white. Then I realised in 16yrs we'd never charged a bulb in that car. Did do the fuel pump and alternator though.

Old diesel · 25-01-2020 3:11pm

It's not "things going wrong" that's the issue.

It's the cost bought on by complexity and procedures involved with fixing the car.

Irish Steve · 25-01-2020 4:05pm

One of the reasons for people putting in information about things like water pumps is the change that happened with the introduction of toothed belt timing systems, which displaced the older (usually better) timing chain system that was almost universal. The issue with belts is that they do not necessarily last the life of the engine, which was normally the case with chains.

The recommended belt change interval varies widely, some are ultra conservative, and some are insanely optimistic, and to make things worse, a significant number of people either ignore or are completely oblivious of the recommended change interval. A driver that cares for their vehicle will get the belt (and usually water pump and intermediate pulleys) changed, sometimes before the official distance, and if it's been done, then that does increase the value of a second hand car in comparison to an engine that has not had the work done, it's not a cheap job on some engines, so a consideration when looking at changing a vehicle.

The significance is that if the belt fails while the engine is running, in many cases the damage to the cylinder head, pistons and valves can be significant, and the cost of repairs in some cases can mean the vehicle ends up being scrapped rather than being repaired.

That said, there are some more recent Mercedes and BMW engines that have chain drive systems, but are equally problematic, with either chain stretch or wear causing problems, and the repair of those problems is most definitely not a cheap job, on some of the BMW engines, the entire engine has to be removed, as the chain is at the back of the engine, so access in the vehicle is almost impossible, and without splitting the engine and gearbox, it's not possible to fit a new chain.

It wasn't a problem to the same degree on older engines, but the pressures on weight and cost mean that lighter and thinner materials are being used now, and there's a very fine dividing line between quality and performance, which in some cases, the manufacturers have strayed a little too far over, with expensive consequences for the owners of those vehicles.

zilog_jones · 27-01-2020 11:18am

Irish Steve wrote: »

One of the reasons for people putting in information about things like water pumps is the change that happened with the introduction of toothed belt timing systems, which displaced the older (usually better) timing chain system that was almost universal.

But if you're talking about older engines, you're also talking about overhead valve (pushrod) engines which required a much shorter timing chain and were generally less complicated in that area - and water pumps were usually driven by the auxiliary belt, not the timing chain. I'm not sure but weren't most (all?) earlier OHC designs belt-driven? Chain-driven OHC engine seems to be a more recent development due to improvements in NVH.

To take the OP's example, an '80s Corolla would have had a belt-driven OHC engine (unless pre-'83, then it'd be a pushrod), though I think 2E engines used a water pump driven by the auxiliary belt.

Wibbs · 27-01-2020 12:42pm

zilog_jones wrote: »

I'm not sure but weren't most (all?) earlier OHC designs belt-driven? Chain-driven OHC engine seems to be a more recent development due to improvements in NVH.

The older Fords I can think of were belts alright Z, but there were chains on the Alfa and the Lotus Twin cams. I think the Japanese went with belts for their OHCs.

Tazzimus · 27-01-2020 12:58pm

Only for insurance getting ridiculous, I'd probably still have my 00 A3.
294,000 miles on the clock when I got rid of it and the engine was still perfect.
Teg had 240,000 hard miles on it before I finally managed to kill it in Mondello.
Mazda currently has about 140,000 on it, which should just be bedding in miles for a diesel.

I'm not sure if I'd trust some of the newer models of cars, with cost cutting for manufacturers being what it is these days.
Then again, they're probably more reliable than years ago, we're just more informed now, with social media etc.

Wibbs · 27-01-2020 1:38pm

Tazzimus wrote: »

Then again, they're probably more reliable than years ago, we're just more informed now, with social media etc.

True. Bad news gets out much more quickly these days. There are a lot of factors involved. Materials have generally gotten better, though as you note cost cutting is more in play because manufacturers have better tools to measure how much material is required in a part to make it last long enough. In the past more over engineering could be in play, though there were also a lot more turkeys on the forecourt. We tend to forget them with nostalgia. People tended to be more mechanically invested in cars too. A 70's or 80's weekend would have many ordinary drivers with bonnets up checking things. Because they had to. That's very much less in play, which shows how reliable cars have become. For the majority of drivers today they may as well be looking at the black(plastic) hole of Calcutta with the bonnet up. On the other hand modern cars are much less "user serviceable" when things do go wrong.

Overall though cars are faster, with better brakes, more luxurious, with more features and much safer than 20 years ago and for the vast majority of people last long enough and stay reliable throughout.

Tazzimus · 27-01-2020 2:11pm

Wibbs wrote: »

True. Bad news gets out much more quickly these days. There are a lot of factors involved. Materials have generally gotten better, though as you note cost cutting is more in play because manufacturers have better tools to measure how much material is required in a part to make it last long enough. In the past more over engineering could be in play, though there were also a lot more turkeys on the forecourt. We tend to forget them with nostalgia. People tended to be more mechanically invested in cars too. A 70's or 80's weekend would have many ordinary drivers with bonnets up checking things. Because they had to. That's very much less in play, which shows how reliable cars have become. For the majority of drivers today they may as well be looking at the black(plastic) hole of Calcutta with the bonnet up. On the other hand modern cars are much less "user serviceable" when things do go wrong.

Overall though cars are faster, with better brakes, more luxurious, with more features and much safer than 20 years ago and for the vast majority of people last long enough and stay reliable throughout.

Yeah, I'm finding on the Mazda, stuff I'd consider simple, such as changing a headlight bulb, can be a challenge with how it's designed.
Compare that to the teg and I've rebuilt my suspension, fitted brakes from two different model cars and various other bits and bobs.

Definitely more luxury nowadays, the difference in my A3 and the Mazda 6 is enormous, the A3 was as basic as you could get, which is probably why nothing ever broke. There was nothing too break.

Zubeneschamali · 27-01-2020 2:18pm

Wibbs wrote: »

People tended to be more mechanically invested in cars too. A 70's or 80's weekend would have many ordinary drivers with bonnets up checking things. Because they had to. That's very much less in play, which shows how reliable cars have become. For the majority of drivers today they may as well be looking at the black(plastic) hole of Calcutta with the bonnet up.

You now have people trading in at 3 years because otherwise they would have to speak with a man in overalls at the NCT center. I wonder how many of those 3 year old cars have not had a service or even the bonnet opened?

The Real B-man · 27-01-2020 3:03pm

It's the rise of the laptop mechanic, coding batterys and components into the car, using a laptop to change a fuel filter,brake pads the list goes on! where previously you could just replace the part. a simple battery on a stop/start system can cost hundreds for probably a 20mins labour including a few minutes "coding" also emissions standard's DPF's and EGR valves failing going to main dealer especially is like the Apple store experience of being sold bullcrap for something that is relatively cheap but you seem to pay for the experience nowadays.

Joe 90 · 27-01-2020 3:05pm

Irish Steve wrote: »

One of the reasons for people putting in information about things like water pumps is the change that happened with the introduction of toothed belt timing systems, which displaced the older (usually better) timing chain system that was almost universal. The issue with belts is that they do not necessarily last the life of the engine, which was normally the case with chains.

The recommended belt change interval varies widely, some are ultra conservative, and some are insanely optimistic, and to make things worse, a significant number of people either ignore or are completely oblivious of the recommended change interval. A driver that cares for their vehicle will get the belt (and usually water pump and intermediate pulleys) changed, sometimes before the official distance, and if it's been done, then that does increase the value of a second hand car in comparison to an engine that has not had the work done, it's not a cheap job on some engines, so a consideration when looking at changing a vehicle.

The significance is that if the belt fails while the engine is running, in many cases the damage to the cylinder head, pistons and valves can be significant, and the cost of repairs in some cases can mean the vehicle ends up being scrapped rather than being repaired.

That said, there are some more recent Mercedes and BMW engines that have chain drive systems, but are equally problematic, with either chain stretch or wear causing problems, and the repair of those problems is most definitely not a cheap job, on some of the BMW engines, the entire engine has to be removed, as the chain is at the back of the engine, so access in the vehicle is almost impossible, and without splitting the engine and gearbox, it's not possible to fit a new chain.

It wasn't a problem to the same degree on older engines, but the pressures on weight and cost mean that lighter and thinner materials are being used now, and there's a very fine dividing line between quality and performance, which in some cases, the manufacturers have strayed a little too far over, with expensive consequences for the owners of those vehicles.

Actually when the first cam belts that I remember we're introduced by Vauxhall at the end of the 60s beginning of the 70s the cam belt was good for the life of the engine. As was the timing chain and sprockets. In the case of the chain and sprockets you replaced the chain if it were badly stretched and the sprockets if they were badly worn when the engine was rebuilt. That's the difference, when you rebuilt the engine. In those days maybe 50, 60, or 70 thousand miles. The belt would have been good for that just like the chain. These days we take it pretty much for granted that a normal engine is good for a couple of hundred thousand miles. So belts and chains have to be replaced several times in the life of the engine.

Dr_Kolossus · 27-01-2020 7:05pm

Probably need to factor in nct, and increased services in newer cars. I know people who would never think to change oil, nevermind filters etc.. the car were not due an nct

swarlb · 27-01-2020 11:29pm

Joe 90 wrote: »

Actually when the first cam belts that I remember we're introduced by Vauxhall at the end of the 60s beginning of the 70s the cam belt was good for the life of the engine. As was the timing chain and sprockets. In the case of the chain and sprockets you replaced the chain if it were badly stretched and the sprockets if they were badly worn when the engine was rebuilt. That's the difference, when you rebuilt the engine. In those days maybe 50, 60, or 70 thousand miles. The belt would have been good for that just like the chain. These days we take it pretty much for granted that a normal engine is good for a couple of hundred thousand miles. So belts and chains have to be replaced several times in the life of the engine.

Fiats 124 twin cam was one of the first mass produced engines to have a timing belt, followed a few years later in 1969 by the 128. While not exactly good for the life of the engine they lasted a good bit longer than modern engines. As for changing the water pump.... never happened, unless it leaked.

firstlight · 28-01-2020 1:05am

From my own experience,the early 2000s was a sweet spot for alot of great engines,having owned several different cars from that age bracket. Again like everything else once serviced and looked after they would keep going
Insurance is killing them off

Wibbs · 28-01-2020 8:42am

firstlight wrote: »

Insurance is killing them off

It really didn't help, but there's also natural wastage going on too F. The vast majority of people want to change their car every few years getting more features as they go. As it's always been.

If anything we see many more old cars on the roads than ever before. If this were say the 1980's you would have seen very few 1960's cars in daily use. Yet today in an average trip around any urban area you'll see a couple of cars from the early 2000's, even the occasional 90's car. That's like driving around in 1970 and seeing a car from the 40's.

Though it does back up your take that there was a general reliability sweet spot 20 years ago, because if you had seen a late 40's car in 1970 it would have been held together with miraculous medals.

twin_beacon · 29-01-2020 10:59am

bazz26 wrote: »

How many cars built today will actually still be on the road in 20 years time though? I'd say it be lower than the amount of 20 year old cars on the road today. The products might be a bit more durable but most will be scrapped due to being uneconomical to repair, difficulty getting them insured, more stringent safety and pollution tests, scrappage deals and new cars being more accessible through the likes of cheap PCP deals.

but thats whats happening now with cars from late 90s/earls 00s. With the rise of PCP and scrappage deals, early 00s cars are pretty rare on the roads now.

New cars vs old cars

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