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Pressure to visit family during lockdown

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  • 24-05-2020 12:13am
    #1
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭


    Not sure how others are coping with this but here is my situation.

    My elderly parents live about 70 miles away. They are in their mid-80s but independent and healthy albeit have slowed down in recent years. They had a carer who comes in a couple of times a week but told her to stop coming in March

    Since lockdown, I have kept in touch regularly but haven't visited. I do have a underlying health condition so deemed high risk. I just go for walks and occasional grocery shopping (very quiet times).

    However my sibling has gone down to my parents most weekends. At the start, he did a massive shop (food for a couple of weeks) and I expected that would be it - afterwards, we could organise delivery or else neighbour or carer would help out. But no, my sibling has continued to drive down every weekend, a two hour journey and justifies on the basis that it's "care for elderly parents".

    My parents don't have an issue with this and I have been told by my sibling that they're "disappointed" that I have not shown my face. He has also suggested that I travel down there myself and spend time with them. When I say I am uncomfortable with this, I get the "what's the risk - you're cocooning and so are they". Because he is breaking the rules, the pressure is coming on me to do the same and I am starting to feel really guilty and torn up inside. Obviously if there was an emergency and they needed me I would be there but this is more of a wish that I make a social call to them which is not part of the rules.

    Any advice on how to deal with this? I have spoken to my mother who says "no need for you to come" but every time my sibling goes down, it makes it harder for me and I feel worse each time.


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    #2
    Purgative
    Registered Users Posts: 2,509 ✭✭✭Purgative


    Hi Jerry - its a difficult one.

    My FiL is cocooning (in 80s otherwise good health) and my wife goes to see him, and shops and stuff. I don't just to try and limit exposure.

    My BiL has teenage kids and took the view not to visit until ...

    I think its unreasonable for his mental health to have kept him in total isolation for X months. That's what we've done.

    I hope it helps.


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    #3
    LimeFruitGum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭LimeFruitGum


    If you have an underlying condition, then of course it makes sense to stay at home (tough as it is) until it’s safe again.

    It sounds like the brother isn’t cocooning himself, and I am assuming that he goes into the parents’ house, so isn’t that kind of breaking their cocoon?

    I do wonder if the brother is stirring the pot a wee bit? If it was safe to go, you would go.


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    #4
    Addle
    Registered Users Posts: 4,812 ✭✭✭Addle


    I couldn’t go so long without seeing my parents, especially at their age. Even if it’s just through a window.
    Do you want to see them OP?
    Have you your own means of travel?


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    #5
    Tork
    Registered Users Posts: 3,270 ✭✭✭Tork


    The secret that nobody is really telling is that lots of people have been to visit their parents. They're keeping their distance and doing things like talking to them in the garden, through the window or from another room in the house. Even if you meet a Garda checkpoint and they ask you what the reason for your trip is, they're not going to turn you back. Checking in on elderly parents who are coccooning is fine, just as long as you take the usual precautions. If you want to see them, go.


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    #6
    Dial Hard
    Registered Users Posts: 13,409 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    What Tork said. I've been to see my parents loads of times, always over the wall, through the window, etc. If your bother isn't going into the house then he's not doing anything wrong. The 5km distance restriction only applies to exercise.

    If you want to see them, go and see them. If you don't, don't. Quite frankly if it was me, my biggest concern would be timing it so needing the loo wouldn't be an issue on a 140 mile round-trip and hour or two in the garden.


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    #7
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Thanks all.
    In answer to queries:

    Yes - I do have my own means of transport so could drive down.

    My brother is going into the house, staying there for a couple of days at a time and then going back to his own place. He is also working although I believe very few people are in his office now and he has a fair degree of flexibility in terms of taking days off.

    I guess I could go down and sit outside. Although I know my parents would expect me to come inside and have a meal with them - because of the precedent that has already been set.

    My own partner's parents are not quite as old (70s) and live a similar distance away. She has not visited them since but keeps in regular contact like I do (phonecalls and videocalls)


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    #8
    Shelli2
    Registered Users Posts: 928 ✭✭✭Shelli2


    Jerry Hall wrote: »

    My brother is going into the house, staying there for a couple of days at a time and then going back to his own place. He is also working although I believe very few people are in his office now and he has a fair degree of flexibility in terms of taking days off.
    videocalls)

    They are not cocooning then, your brother is not isolating so therefore your parents are not. They're at just as much risk as if they were out and about themselves.
    If you are in a high risk category you'd be mad to visit that environment, unless you were going to stay outside and wave from a distance, which is kinda unreasonable given the distance.


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    #9
    Tork
    Registered Users Posts: 3,270 ✭✭✭Tork


    I'd still go for a day trip but keep a distance from them. How would you feel if one of them died before you got to visit them again? Would you have regrets?


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    #10
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,959 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    OP, if you feel safer staying where you are, do that. But you could visit your parents and be firm about staying 2m away.

    As they're more than 5km away, you shouldn't really be travelling that distance. The advice is still to stay at home as much as possible, but you can exercise within 5km of your household.

    I'm more than 5km away from my parents, but I'm lucky enough in that I've been doing their shopping so I see them once a week. I've been stopped by the gardai a few times and they're always lovely. If I didn't do the shopping I have to say at the stage I would visit.

    The guidelines are there for a reason though, so if you're not comfortable don't go. But don't put it off because you think they might persuade you to go in. Stay firm on the 2m rule.


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    #11
    LimeFruitGum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭LimeFruitGum


    ok, so your brother has actually broken his parents' cocoon then. He's travelling here, there, and wherever else in between. I'd say fair enough if he had moved in full-time to limit risk & support the parents, but he isn't. Don't feel bad about standing up for yourself OP. It's very hard to maintain 2m distance once you're inside the house. If in doubt, don't risk it. It's great he is helping on one hand, but it's negated by all the other risks he's running.


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    #12
    s1ippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,980 ✭✭✭s1ippy


    Yeah, to me it sounds like your brother isn't doing them any favours and is putting them at immense risk. That's just my opinion, some might disagree. When it's family, it can be hard to deal in facts and honesty but I would be explaining that they are at risk from his actions.

    70km is very far, but maybe you could order online shopping to their house for them? The delivery drivers leave it at the bottom of the garden. And there's nothing wrong with a phonecall at the moment, you aren't obliged to travel anywhere.

    As another poster said, many people are seeing their parents regularly because this situation has but the whole thing in perspective and a lot of parents are in the older demographic. But it's a long way to go, and you might be at risk.


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    #13
    lozenges
    Registered Users Posts: 290 ✭✭lozenges


    OP if you are in a high risk category please don't let your family (and some posters here) try to pressure you to do something that you're not comfortable with.

    The guidance is very clear, during lockdown people were asked not to visit others outside their household, even if they kept their distance. Your brother has not kept a distance so your parents are not cocooning.

    I also came under pressure from my family to visit my mother during lockdown. I called them out on it and said that they were asking me to do something that was unsafe for me and them. My mum came round to my point of view. I didn't see her during lockdown but saw her last week outside according to what was was allowed in the phase 1 reopening.

    Basically - don't let others, including your family, pressure you into something you don't want to do or put yourself at risk.


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    #14
    Tork
    Registered Users Posts: 3,270 ✭✭✭Tork


    lozenges wrote: »

    Basically - don't let others, including your family, pressure you into something you don't want to do or put yourself at risk.

    Fair enough but what risk is there now? If the OP stays 2 metres or more away from their parents and doesn't go into the house, they should be OK. If they're bothered that much, bring masks for the 3 of them so they can't shed water droplets. Dr Tony Holohan said "In broad terms, we have effectively extinguished it from the community in general, right across the country. Much of the caseload that is now being reported is seen in the context of particular settings." (nursing homes etc.)


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    #15
    lozenges
    Registered Users Posts: 290 ✭✭lozenges


    Tork wrote: »
    Fair enough but what risk is there now? If the OP stays 2 metres or more away from their parents and doesn't go into the house, they should be OK. If they're bothered that much, bring masks for the 3 of them so they can't shed water droplets. Dr Tony Holohan said "In broad terms, we have effectively extinguished it from the community in general, right across the country. Much of the caseload that is now being reported is seen in the context of particular settings." (nursing homes etc.)

    People are still being asked not to travel long distances. And the problem with masks is that they can give people a false sense of security, and most people don't put them on or take them off correctly giving a risk of contamination.

    OP isn't doing anything wrong by following the public health guidance. People need to make the decision individually as to what's right for themselves. If he/she says to his parents that he/she doesn't feel it's safe right now then they should respect that decision.


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    #16
    Tork
    Registered Users Posts: 3,270 ✭✭✭Tork


    People I know are travelling long distances when they feel it's necessary to check in on elderly parents. This lockdown has gone on for so long, other issues such as loneliness are coming into play. As we've agreed, it's up to the OP to decide whether they want to travel or not. I would argue that now that the risk of transmission is low and they haven't seen their parents for ages, what exactly is going to happen? It is highly unlikely that they or the parents have the virus now and as long as they stay 2m or more apart, they're not going to spread it. And if OP looks up how to use the masks properly, they'll not spread any droplets. And also, if the parents are genuinely disappointed that they've not visited, I hope that won't haunt the OP when they die.


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    #17
    lozenges
    Registered Users Posts: 290 ✭✭lozenges


    Tork wrote: »
    People I know are travelling long distances when they feel it's necessary to check in on elderly parents. This lockdown has gone on for so long, other issues such as loneliness are coming into play. As we've agreed, it's up to the OP to decide whether they want to travel or not. I would argue that now that the risk of transmission is low and they haven't seen their parents for ages, what exactly is going to happen? It is highly unlikely that they or the parents have the virus now and as long as they stay 2m or more apart, they're not going to spread it. And if OP looks up how to use the masks properly, they'll not spread any droplets. And also, if the parents are genuinely disappointed that they've not visited, I hope that won't haunt the OP when they die.

    The last sentence here is just pure manipulative emotional blackmail. Would it haunt the parents if OP caught covid off them as result of them pressuring him/her to visit, and OP suffered serious consequences as a result?

    It's not easy for anyone, it's lonely, everyone is sufferring, but putting pressure on people to go against the guidance, especially those in a high risk category, is selfish. Choose what you want to do yourself, put yourself at risk if you want, but guilt tripping others is not OK. If the parents and OP are both happy to put themselves and others in their communities at risk, fine - but I'm not sure that's the case here, or OP wouldn't be asking for advice.

    As for it being low risk - the virus is suppressed for now. It's not gone. If everyone collectively decides that now it's ok to bend the rules, because it's 'low risk', a surge will occur. That is inevitable.


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    #18
    pinkyeye
    Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭pinkyeye


    OP, I have to be honest, I abided by the advice for a long time but my mother has terminal cancer and I just wasn't willing to wait any longer to see her just in case she'd end up in hospital or a hospice when we'd have no choice to see her before she died.

    So what I did was waited until I had a negative test, (I work in healthcare but not on the frontline), isolated for two weeks after that and then went up on a nice day when she could sit out the back. Walked through the house without touching anything and sat with her out the back, at 2m distance and had a lovely time.

    I'll always be happy that we had that time if it's the last time I ever see her.

    I don't think we can stay away from our elderly parents forever, because they will end up desperately depressed from lack of company and interaction with younger people.

    What point is there in them staying alive if they have to live alone with no interaction, news, laughter etc?


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    #19
    pinkyeye
    Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭pinkyeye


    lozenges wrote: »
    The last sentence here is just pure emotional blackmail. Would it haunt the parents if OP caught covid off them as result of them pressuring him/her to visit?

    It's not easy for anyone, it's lonely, everyone is sufferring, but putting pressure on people to go against the guidance, especially those in a high risk category, is selfish. Choose what you want to do yourself, out yourself at risk if you want, but guilt tripping others is not OK.

    As for it being low risk - the virus is suppressed for now. It's not gone. If everyone collectively decides that now it's ok to bend the rules, because it's 'low risk', a surge will occur. That is inevitable.

    It is EXTREMELY low risk at the moment and there is no denying that.

    Please point to your stats that state it's high risk?


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    #20
    lozenges
    Registered Users Posts: 290 ✭✭lozenges


    pinkyeye wrote: »
    It is EXTREMELY low risk at the moment and there is no denying that.

    Please point to your stats that state it's high risk?

    The OP said they have an underlying health condition that would put them in a high risk category if they got Covid.

    I'm not saying anybody is wrong to visit their parents. Everyone has a different level of risk that is acceptable to them personally. What I have a problem with is people being pressurised to do something theyre not comfortable with.


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    #21
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,637 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    pinkyeye wrote: »
    OP, I have to be honest, I abided by the advice for a long time but my mother has terminal cancer and I just wasn't willing to wait any longer to see her just in case she'd end up in hospital or a hospice when we'd have no choice to see her before she died.

    So what I did was waited until I had a negative test, (I work in healthcare but not on the frontline), isolated for two weeks after that and then went up on a nice day when she could sit out the back. Walked through the house without touching anything and sat with her out the back, at 2m distance and had a lovely time.

    I'll always be happy that we had that time if it's the last time I ever see her.

    I don't think we can stay away from our elderly parents forever, because they will end up desperately depressed from lack of company and interaction with younger people.

    What point is there in them staying alive if they have to live alone with no interaction, news, laughter etc?

    For what it’s worth, you made the right decision there Pinkeye. I hope you and your Mam had a lovely visit together.

    It’s too easy for people who don’t have first hand experience with this sort of situation to criticise that decision but compassion here for your mother trumps the black and white rules that others want to repeat ad nauseum.


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    #22
    pinkyeye
    Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭pinkyeye


    lozenges wrote: »
    The OP said they have an underlying health condition that would put them in a high risk category if they got Covid.

    I'm not saying anybody is wrong to visit their parents. Everyone has a different level of risk that is acceptable to them personally. What I have a problem with is people being pressurised to do something theyre not comfortable with.

    I also have an underlying condition (COPD), but I was no more at risk going to visit my mother than I was going for a walk down the road.

    Where is the extra risk?


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    #23
    lozenges
    Registered Users Posts: 290 ✭✭lozenges


    pinkyeye wrote: »
    I also have an underlying condition (COPD), but I was no more at risk going to visit my mother than I was going for a walk down the road.

    Where is the extra risk?

    If you catch Covid, someone with a health condition is more likely to need hospitalisation, ICU care, and potentially to die of the disease.
    It is pretty well established at this stage from the data from Germany and California that people with minimal or no symptoms can have Covid and infect others. It only takes one person to transmit it to start an exponential increase. All of this started with one person in China.

    Again I'm not criticising anyone's individual decision, because you seem to be taking this very personally. I'm saying that everyone's risk tolerance is different, and OP isn't wrong if they want to observe the official public health guidance, equally they are not wrong if they want to visit their parents and do so. It's their decision. But they shouldn't be pressurised or coerced into it.


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    #24
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    I think it's the risk assessment which is off here kilter tbh.

    A non contact outdoor visit, touching nothing is extremely low risk.

    OP has been isolated for months, they cannot transmit something they don't have.

    Not saying they should visit. But it definitely isn't high risk.


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    #25
    s1ippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,980 ✭✭✭s1ippy


    pwurple wrote: »
    I think it's the risk assessment which is off here kilter tbh.

    A non contact outdoor visit, touching nothing is extremely low risk.

    OP has been isolated for months, they cannot transmit something they don't have.

    Not saying they should visit. But it definitely isn't high risk.
    Did you miss the part where they said their brother is working in and office then staying with the parents? So they're not cucooning and the OP is in a high risk category, so they wouldn't be protecting themselves anymore if they were to visit.

    Edit: I just see you've said outside, it seems like an incredibly long distance to travel to just stand outside, surely a phonecall would be as efficient. They also mentioned that their parents would insist they come in for a bite to eat etc. It's just my view, but I would be preempting those potential disagreements in order to avoid them and be able to discuss the situation in a sensitive way, at a remove.


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    #26
    Tork
    Registered Users Posts: 3,270 ✭✭✭Tork


    That's what social distancing is for


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    #27
    Dog day
    Registered Users Posts: 190 ✭✭Dog day


    Hi OP, I’m with those agreeing that you should visit your parents & just take the necessary precautions, stay outside, 2 metre distance, face masks etc.

    I understand where Lozenges is coming from regarding how you shouldn’t feel pressured into doing so however on balance I believe it’s the right decision overall.

    Also I don’t think it’s been mentioned here yet but your brother may also be feeling a tad aggrieved that he’s been doing all of the grocery shops etc, I’m not making any judgements about you on this, I just feel it’s a point worth noting as to his perspective.

    This whole situation has obviously caused so much stress & strain for people that I think a visit to your parents would benefit you all, yourself included & could help you avoid any further issues with your brother too who’s possibly feeling under pressure himself.

    Wouldn’t it be lovely to see them?


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    #28
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    Jerry Hall wrote: »
    Not sure how others are coping with this but here is my situation.

    My elderly parents live about 70 miles away. They are in their mid-80s but independent and healthy albeit have slowed down in recent years. They had a carer who comes in a couple of times a week but told her to stop coming in March

    Since lockdown, I have kept in touch regularly but haven't visited. I do have a underlying health condition so deemed high risk. I just go for walks and occasional grocery shopping (very quiet times).

    However my sibling has gone down to my parents most weekends. At the start, he did a massive shop (food for a couple of weeks) and I expected that would be it - afterwards, we could organise delivery or else neighbour or carer would help out. But no, my sibling has continued to drive down every weekend, a two hour journey and justifies on the basis that it's "care for elderly parents".

    My parents don't have an issue with this and I have been told by my sibling that they're "disappointed" that I have not shown my face. He has also suggested that I travel down there myself and spend time with them. When I say I am uncomfortable with this, I get the "what's the risk - you're cocooning and so are they". Because he is breaking the rules, the pressure is coming on me to do the same and I am starting to feel really guilty and torn up inside. Obviously if there was an emergency and they needed me I would be there but this is more of a wish that I make a social call to them which is not part of the rules.

    Any advice on how to deal with this? I have spoken to my mother who says "no need for you to come" but every time my sibling goes down, it makes it harder for me and I feel worse each time.

    Your not cocooning if you go grocery shopping! If you are you're breaking the rules too. Your brother has been left to do all the shopping & caring while also working full time. Did you discuss with him about the online shopping or attempt to order yourself?

    Parents need checking in on. You should try to make an effort to go and visit them. Theres lower risk visiting them that visiting the shop!


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    #29
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Thanks again for all the viewpoints.

    There is a lot to think about.

    Of course I would like to see my parents (have done video call, not bad but not the same) and yes, if anything happened to them during this period, I would feel immensely guilty for not having said goodbye.

    It's good in some ways that my brother is there for them - but is a dominant person and just pushes away any concerns I raise. He is single and has always gone down to visit more often than me - I have young children and my partner works weekends so generally would only see them once a month

    I accept that there's minimal risk if I go down and keep my distance i.e. stay outside. To be honest, I would rather do it when I know my brother won't be there - so might consider an unannounced visit some afternoon after I finish work - rather than trying to schedule something and then worrying constantly during the run up to it.

    I think it's 20 July before I can "legally" go which is a long time away - I last saw them in early March.


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    #30
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    Your not cocooning if you go grocery shopping! If you are you're breaking the rules too. Your brother has been left to do all the shopping & caring while also working full time. Did you discuss with him about the online shopping or attempt to order yourself?

    Parents need checking in on. You should try to make an effort to go and visit them. Theres lower risk visiting them that visiting the shop!


    My shopping has consisted of three visits of about five minutes duration to one particular shop first thing in the morning with a handful of customers in it each time. My partner does the main grocery shop once a week.

    I did discuss the online shopping with both him and my parents. The response from him - "There's no need. I don't mind going down". The response from my parents - "There's no need. Brother will do it when he comes down."

    A neighbour also offered and got a similar response.


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    #31
    lozenges
    Registered Users Posts: 290 ✭✭lozenges


    pwurple wrote: »
    I think it's the risk assessment which is off here kilter tbh.

    A non contact outdoor visit, touching nothing is extremely low risk.

    OP has been isolated for months, they cannot transmit something they don't have.

    Not saying they should visit. But it definitely isn't high risk.

    The risk of transmission is low. The risk of OP getting a severe complication if they caught it is not low, because they have an underlying health condition.

    OP is unlikely to give it to their parents, but the parents could transmit it to OP having caught it from the brother who has been traveling between 2 households.

    If OP is ok with that risk, no problem, but it's not for OPs brother or parents to decide that they should be ok with it on their behalf.


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