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Countryfolk want to Cull Deer

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  • 04-11-2015 11:50pm
    #1
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭


    Why are people from the country calling on a cull for our beautiful wild deer population in Killarney National Park? Those deer have as much right to be on this soil as we humans do besides they have been brought back from devastation. This is not the sort of message we should be sending out. Help conserve wildlife but when it becomes hassle to interact with wild animals we go and cull them. This act is tantamount to environmental vandalism and should not be allowed to go ahead.


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    #2
    bigroad
    Registered Users Posts: 4,059 ✭✭✭bigroad


    Its a nice little earner for them when they sell the deer on for cash.


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    #3
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    bigroad wrote: »
    Its a nice little earner for them when they sell the deer on for cash.

    To the best of my knowledge the cull will be carried out by NPWS rangers, not private hunters and so I'd be very confident the deer won't be sold on, certainly not for the benefit of any individuals.


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    #4
    bigroad
    Registered Users Posts: 4,059 ✭✭✭bigroad


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    Why are people from the country calling on a cull for our beautiful wild deer population in Killarney National Park? Those deer have as much right to be on this soil as we humans do besides they have been brought back from devastation. This is not the sort of message we should be sending out. Help conserve wildlife but when it becomes hassle to interact with wild animals we go and cull them. This act is tantamount to environmental vandalism and should not be allowed to go ahead.

    Is this calling for a cull of deer coming from the direction of the IFA.


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    #5
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    bigroad wrote: »
    Is this calling for a cull of deer coming from the direction of the IFA.

    No, its coming from local politicians.


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    #6
    bigroad
    Registered Users Posts: 4,059 ✭✭✭bigroad


    OpenYourEyes wrote: »
    No, its coming from local politicians.
    That in my book would be close enough.
    You have to ask yourself the question,Who want rid of the deer.
    What group of people do deer cause trouble for.
    Who will gain from this if it goes ahead.


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    #7
    Dubl07
    Registered Users Posts: 1,801 ✭✭✭Dubl07


    Nature being a balancing act, until the reintroduction of wolves culling will be occasionally necessary to ensure the health of the deer population and the integrity of the environment in which they live. I'm in favour of reintroducing wolves but I'm also partial to a roast loin of venison.


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    #8
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    Dubl07 wrote: »
    Nature being a balancing act, until the reintroduction of wolves culling will be occasionally necessary to ensure the health of the deer population and the integrity of the environment in which they live. I'm in favour of reintroducing wolves but I'm also partial to a roast loin of venison.


    This cull isn't being proposed for either of those reasons though unfortunately; it's being done for road safety reasons, despite the fact that a deer collision has never been associated with a road fatality in Killarney. Most groups agree that changes to speed limits and road behaviour in the trouble areas would be a much more useful solution. Add to that the fact that the NPWS admitted they don't know how many Red Deer are in Killarney at the moment.


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    #9
    thegreatgonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,623 ✭✭✭thegreatgonzo


    You didn't provide a link but I think the group of people they are causing trouble to are motorists. Nobody stands to gain from it from what I gather.


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    #10
    aaakev
    Registered Users Posts: 3,088 ✭✭✭aaakev


    Dubl07 wrote: »
    Nature being a balancing act, until the reintroduction of wolves culling will be occasionally necessary to ensure the health of the deer population and the integrity of the environment in which they live. I'm in favour of reintroducing wolves but I'm also partial to a roast loin of venison.

    Thats never going to happen, we dont have the space for them. Wolves would be killed once they start going for the easy fenced in targets

    There are thousands and thousands of deer shot every year, the reds in kilarney are protected so the numbers have been growing. maybe its time they were culled and it will actually benefit them by removing older, weak and sick members of the herd


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    #11
    bigroad
    Registered Users Posts: 4,059 ✭✭✭bigroad


    So some politician or family member got a fright when they saw a deer close to the road.
    And now they want to use their political influence to cull the unlucky deer.
    On another note the NPWS would want to get their fingers out and start counting some deer.


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    #12
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    aaakev wrote: »
    Thats never going to happen, we dont have the space for them. Wolves would be killed once they start going for the easy fenced in targets

    There are thousands and thousands of deer shot every year, the reds in kilarney are protected so the numbers have been growing and maybe its time they were culled and it will actually benefit them by removing older, weak and sick members of the herd

    The key word is 'maybe' - we don't know how many deer are in Killarney; one of the first thing in any wildlife management plan is to see what you have. To go ahead with a cull without knowing that is careless.


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    #13
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    bigroad wrote: »
    So some politician or family member got a fright when they saw a deer close to the road.
    And now they want to use their political influence to cull the unlucky deer.
    On another note the NPWS would want to get their fingers out and start counting some deer.

    NPWS are under-staffed, under-resourced and are essentially used as a political football to be kicked around the place. If NPWS aren't doing something you think they should be doing, its the Minister you should direct your ire at.


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    #14
    aaakev
    Registered Users Posts: 3,088 ✭✭✭aaakev


    OpenYourEyes wrote: »
    The key word is 'maybe' - we don't know how many deer are in Killarney; one of the first thing in any wildlife management plan is to see what you have. To go ahead with a cull without knowing that is careless.

    I agree, personally iv no problem with it if done right. Culling the weak and sick should be done regardless of numbers


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    #15
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    Basically the deer in the park have no natural predators and no hunting is allowed in the parks (and rightly so). But in the long run this causes problems, the deer herds grow too big, they over graze and the plant life dies off because it can't grow as quick as they eat it and then they end up starving. On top of that when the herd explodes you end up with splitting of the herd and increases in the range needed to feed them all so they end up moving out of the park and onto farmland and public roads, this causes a health risk for motorists and a nuisance for crop farmers.

    Herds in parks NEED to be managed or they will literally breed themselves into oblivion. The park can employ professional hunters to come in, trim the herd numbers, nobody can profit from that.


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    #16
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    aaakev wrote: »
    I agree, personally iv no problem with it if done right. Culling the weak and sick should be done regardless of numbers

    I have no problem with a cull when needed, but I'd never give the go-ahead to a cull regardless of numbers, unless some particularly devestating disease hit the population.


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    #17
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    Solution #2:
    Reintroduce European Grey Wolves, they'll cut the herd down in quick time...


    :pac:


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    #18
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    Basically the deer in the park have no natural predators and no hunting is allowed in the parks (and rightly so). But in the long run this causes problems, the deer herds grow too big, they over graze and the plant life dies off because it can't grow as quick as they eat it and then they end up starving. On top of that when the herd explodes you end up with splitting of the herd and increases in the range needed to feed them all so they end up moving out of the park and onto farmland and public roads, this causes a health risk for motorists and a nuisance for crop farmers.

    Herds in parks NEED to be managed or they will literally breed themselves into oblivion. The park can employ professional hunters to come in, trim the herd numbers, nobody can profit from that.

    Again, to emphasise, they don't know how many deer are in the population and this isn't being done for good herd management (which I agree is very important), its being done to satisfy local politicians.


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    #19
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    OpenYourEyes wrote: »
    Again, to emphasise, they don't know how many deer are in the population and this isn't being done for good herd management (which I agree is very important), its being done to satisfy local politicians.

    Then do a herd survey, do a survey of they range, see if there is a problem, make corrections as needed.

    If it's a case that the herd isn't over populated but is still moving outside of the parks and causing RTA's and damaging crop yields then we need to consider compensating motorists and farmers.


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    #20
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,322 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Could they not relocate them? Is there any red deer in the Glenties? Or are there any other parts of the country that would like them ?


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    #21
    bigroad
    Registered Users Posts: 4,059 ✭✭✭bigroad


    OpenYourEyes wrote: »
    NPWS are under-staffed, under-resourced and are essentially used as a political football to be kicked around the place. If NPWS aren't doing something you think they should be doing, its the Minister you should direct your ire at.
    I agree if the NPWS are under staffed as you say .
    Then these politicians should be told to quieten down till they get the funding and manpower to count the deer .
    Without the numbers no cull should take place.
    Not because some loud mouth politician thinks its a good idea without all the facts.


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    #22
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    Solution #2:
    Reintroduce European Grey Wolves, they'll cut the herd down in quick time...


    :pac:

    Wolves on the streets of Killarney. That'll work:)


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    #23
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    Then do a herd survey, do a survey of they range, see if there is a problem, make corrections as needed.

    If it's a case that the herd isn't over populated but is still moving outside of the parks and causing RTA's and damaging crop yields then we need to consider compensating motorists and farmers.

    Yeah well thats what everyone is saying, but they're not going to do a herd survey or anything along those lines.

    I think it was the Wild Deer Association of Ireland, amongst others, who pointed out that there have been no road fatalities linked to deer collisions there and that if RTA's are a problem then surely changing driver behaviour through signage, reduced speed limits etc. is a better solution that taking out an unknown percentage of the only 'true Irish' deer herd that exists.


    I would imagine that the spread of Sika/hybrid deer into neighbouring areas are causing as many if not more problems, so surely a cull of them would be a better use of resources for all involved.


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    #24
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    ted1 wrote: »
    Could they not relocate them? Is there any red deer in the Glenties? Or are there any other parts of the country that would like them ?

    While I agree it would be a great idea, its not something that could be done without a lot of study to look at how many deer and what type it would take in terms of age and sex ratios to have enough to start a population elsewhere, while also balancing the interests of the Killarney population in terms of genetic diversity (which is low I think). Then you have to find suitable habitat where the new deer won't have a signficant impact on anything, and also won't be threatened by interbreeding with sika/red hybrids, which rules out a lot of places.

    Its the kind of thing they should be researching in detail now so that in the future small populations could be placed elsewhere, but unfortunately there isn't that level of forward thinking around nor the money to fund it!


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    #25
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    ted1 wrote: »
    Could they not relocate them? Is there any red deer in the Glenties? Or are there any other parts of the country that would like them ?

    The only deer there's a bit of a lack of number wise in Ireland is Muntjac, and they are invasive so feck them. There's a grand scatter of Red and Fallow and waaaaay too many Sika (also invasive).

    There's a grand scatter of Red in the west, south west, north west and Wicklow/Dublin. There's Fallow pretty much all over the gaff too.

    We have come a long way from the bad auld days where red deer were a rare thing.


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    #26
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    OpenYourEyes wrote: »
    I would imagine that the spread of Sika/hybrid deer into neighbouring areas are causing as many if not more problems, so surely a cull of them would be a better use of resources for all involved.

    I think it's time to make Sika and Muntjac pests and let people take as many of them as they want year round. Especially Sika!


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    #27
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    The only deer there's a bit of a lack of number wise in Ireland is Muntjac, and they are invasive so feck them. There's a grand scatter of Red and Fallow and waaaaay too many Sika (also invasive).

    There's a grand scatter of Red in the west, south west, north west and Wicklow/Dublin. There's Fallow pretty much all over the gaff too.

    We have come a long way from the bad auld days where red deer were a rare thing.


    Any Muntjac are too many alright! Sika too are out of control, particularly in Wicklow. To the best of my knowledge there are no pure Reds in Wicklow, they're all Sika/Red hybrids. Red Deer and Sikas wont readily interbreed, but Reds will interbreed with the Red/Sika hybrids, which are threatening the genetic integrity of our Red Deer population in many places.

    I'm not even sure if there is any hard data on deer numbers - some organisations tell you there are too many, others tell you there are too few due to poaching etc. I suspect it varies heavily by region though.


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    #28
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    OpenYourEyes wrote: »
    No, its coming from local politicians.

    Currys are sold out of chest freezers after looking after the local councillors and TDs


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    #29
    OpenYourEyes
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 3,068 Mod ✭✭✭✭OpenYourEyes


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    I think it's time to make Sika and Muntjac pests and let people take as many of them as they want year round. Especially Sika!

    I doubt theres anything stopping anyone taking Muntjac, is there? They're invasive, and probably still at low enough numbers that a bit of effort and we could be rid of them!

    I remember looking at figures of hunters and how many deer they shoot before, and essentially there aren't enough hunters interested in shooting large numbers of deer to solve the Sika problem in places like Wicklow. There are only a handful of hunters shooting >100 deer per year, most just take a handful. I think if the issue is to be solved there needs to be a number of well-trained and experienced deer stalkers who are employed for the sole purpose of reducing deer numbers.

    Unfortunately increasing the market for venison isn't the solution either, because that tends to just increase poaching, animal cruelty and dangerous behaviour.


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    #30
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    OpenYourEyes wrote: »
    I doubt theres anything stopping anyone taking Muntjac, is there? They're invasive, and probably still at low enough numbers that a bit of effort and we could be rid of them!

    I remember looking at figures of hunters and how many deer they shoot before, and essentially there aren't enough hunters interested in shooting large numbers of deer to solve the Sika problem in places like Wicklow. There are only a handful of hunters shooting >100 deer per year, most just take a handful. I think if the issue is to be solved there needs to be a number of well-trained and experienced deer stalkers who are employed for the sole purpose of reducing deer numbers.

    Unfortunately increasing the market for venison isn't the solution either, because that tends to just increase poaching, animal cruelty and dangerous behaviour.

    Maybe there's scope to make a bit of money on deer hunting tourism "come to Ireland and shoot as much Sika as your heart desires". Walk around the mountains with a few yanks and a riffle and tag 4 or 5 in a day, call in someone on a quad to haul the carcass out and move on...

    I realise it's not quite THAT easy, but it's not far off at times...


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    #31
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    Jesus, I just did a bit of google detective work and Sika are actually protected under the wildlife act...

    WHY?!?

    Out into the field, against the wall, one shot, bang bang.


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