DART coming to Maynooth line in 2024

galtsdrift · 19-10-2020 10:24pm

D15er wrote: »

Yeah, I think so - sorry, what I meant by private is that's it isn't in public ownership and open to all.

Who owns it does anyone know

blanch152 · 20-10-2020 12:29am

daymobrew wrote: »

I was thinking of someone going north over the proposed bridge towards Clonsilla - over bridge, left into St Mochta's Green, Avenue, Road and left onto Clonsilla Road (at crossroads near Spar/Molloys).

It should but I don't think that it does discourage traffic. Drivers seem content to sit in their cars for inordinate amounts of time. It's not something I can do.

If you can’t do it, you take an alternative route, win for the chicane.

daymobrew · 20-10-2020 8:53am

blanch152 wrote: »

If you can’t do it, you take an alternative route, win for the chicane.

I meant that *I* don't have the patience to sit in traffic. That's why I cycle or take public transport. I'm in the minority so it's only 1 in the "win" column with many many in the "lose" column. :-)

beauf · 20-10-2020 9:05am

The point remains regardless. It discourages drivers.
Have to say it's never discouraged me. It does slow traffic I would assume. Only a local would know the impact of the before and after its installation. Been there 20yrs or so.

galtsdrift · 20-10-2020 6:06pm

The only people supporting this bridge at Coolmine must either not drive in the area and don't care about the area or don't own a car and still not care about the area.

The bridge idea is an abomination and will not only destroy the houses around it, but it will also effectively make most of Carpenterstown a dump. Leo and the other TD's are right to oppose this as if they were to support it then it is a clear message they don't care for the area.

liamog · 20-10-2020 6:54pm

galtsdrift wrote: »

The only people supporting this bridge at Coolmine must either not drive in the area and don't care about the area or don't own a car and still not care about the area.

The bridge idea is an abomination and will not only destroy the houses around it, but it will also effectively make most of Carpenterstown a dump. Leo and the other TD's are right to oppose this as if they were to support it then it is a clear message they don't care for the area.

As someone who regularly drives in the area I couldn't disagree more, I'm not entirely sure how you think replacing the current access across Coolmine Crossing is going to magically turn the place into a dump. It's a two lane road with a bike lane not a new Westlink Bridge.

blanch152 · 20-10-2020 11:29pm

galtsdrift wrote: »

The only people supporting this bridge at Coolmine must either not drive in the area and don't care about the area or don't own a car and still not care about the area.

The bridge idea is an abomination and will not only destroy the houses around it, but it will also effectively make most of Carpenterstown a dump. Leo and the other TD's are right to oppose this as if they were to support it then it is a clear message they don't care for the area.

Nonsense. I support the bridge and I live in Dublin 15, walking distance from Coolmine Station.

IngazZagni · 20-10-2020 11:56pm

galtsdrift wrote: »

The only people supporting this bridge at Coolmine must either not drive in the area and don't care about the area or don't own a car and still not care about the area.

The bridge idea is an abomination and will not only destroy the houses around it, but it will also effectively make most of Carpenterstown a dump. Leo and the other TD's are right to oppose this as if they were to support it then it is a clear message they don't care for the area.

This is just complete bonkers. I really can't get my head around opinions like this.

Either way Dart expansion should not be delayed due to nimbys. If traffic chaos needs to happen with a level crossing closed most of the time at peak hours then so be it. Reap what you sow.

I'm hoping the Ashtown underpass proceeds without as much trouble. I dont sense as much opposition to that.

daymobrew · 21-10-2020 7:44am

IngazZagni wrote: »

I'm hoping the Ashtown underpass proceeds without as much trouble. I dont sense as much opposition to that.

I saw a transcript of one of the webinars and the attendees don't want the tunnel - they fear that it will be an unsafe place for pedestrians. They want an automated level crossing.

They also don't want Martin Savage Park turned into a drop off place with a lot of traffic in and out. They were saying that people could drop off to Navan Road Parkway station.

D15er · 21-10-2020 8:13am

IngazZagni wrote: »

This is just complete bonkers. I really can't get my head around opinions like this.

Either way Dart expansion should not be delayed due to nimbys. If traffic chaos needs to happen with a level crossing closed most of the time at peak hours then so be it. Reap what you sow.

I'm hoping the Ashtown underpass proceeds without as much trouble. I dont sense as much opposition to that.

Well, an underpass has much less visual impact than a bridge so it naturally would generate much less opposition. It is also rerouting the main traffic flow further away from residential areas. There is some loss of green space at Martin Savage Park which isn't ideal obviously.

All in all, the Ashtown proposal looks like a good plan. It's a pity an underpass isn't viable at Coolmine because it would be a much easier sell.

IngazZagni · 21-10-2020 9:21am

daymobrew wrote: »

I saw a transcript of one of the webinars and the attendees don't want the tunnel - they fear that it will be an unsafe place for pedestrians. They want an automated level crossing.

They also don't want Martin Savage Park turned into a drop off place with a lot of traffic in and out. They were saying that people could drop off to Navan Road Parkway station.

Yep why am I not surprised. They clearly ignored the pedestrian bridge being maintained at its current location. No need to use it if you don’t want to. There is simply no option were people wouldn’t complain. Irish people are allergic to change.

Navan Road parkway already has a drop off facility and anyone coming from the Castleknock or M50 direction would drop off there still. There is a very small green area being used to allow a turn back facility at Ashtown station. It’s important to note that none of the actual park is affected, only a part of the housing estate.

At Coolmine, yes I’d prefer an underpass too but clearly the topography of the area does not allow this.

beauf · 21-10-2020 9:55am

IngazZagni wrote: »

...

At Coolmine, yes I’d prefer an underpass too but clearly the topography of the area does not allow this.

You're being unreasonable and allergic to change.

They could just close Ashtown. It's a short walk to Parkway. Lots of land there to build as many bridges as they want.

ongarboy · 21-10-2020 1:22pm

galtsdrift wrote: »

The only people supporting this bridge at Coolmine must either not drive in the area and don't care about the area or don't own a car and still not care about the area.

The bridge idea is an abomination and will not only destroy the houses around it, but it will also effectively make most of Carpenterstown a dump. Leo and the other TD's are right to oppose this as if they were to support it then it is a clear message they don't care for the area.

You seem to forget the tens of thousands of daily rail commuters that live outside your bubble that will benefit (post COVID) from the closing of this level crossing through faster and smoother journey times that will not also be prone to delays. While a bridge near homes may not be the most aesthetically pleasing, if it benefits the promotion of further migration to public transport through more attractive rail journeys, then it's a win for the vast majority of Dublin 15, Maynooth and Dunboyne commuters for generations to come. Sometimes the vested interests of minorities have to be sacrificed for the greater good of the majority otherwise we would never progress as a country. NIMBYism has held back this country for so long.

Brand new duplexes and houses are currently being built in the shadow of Dr. Troy bridge right now and people will buy and live in them. Funny how they don't see that as an abomination!

beauf · 21-10-2020 1:52pm

ongarboy wrote: »

...While a bridge near homes may not be the most aesthetically pleasing, if it benefits the promotion of further migration to public transport through more attractive rail journeys, ...

The bridge will have no effect of rail journeys as people have less space to park at the station. So anyone getting the train isn't driving to it. If they were they'd already be doing it, many park in the local estates. Because they won't pay the fee in the car park.

They plan to retain pedestrians and cycle access at Coolmine. So they don't need the bridge either.

Since most of the people advocating for the bridge haven't mostly not mentioned the above. I think we can assume it's not on their radar.

The bridge is really for those NOT using public transport to commute. So it's can arguably only encourage MORE car use not the opposite.

beauf · 21-10-2020 2:02pm

ongarboy wrote: »

You seem to forget the tens of thousands of daily rail commuters that live outside your bubble that will benefit (post COVID) from the closing of this level crossing through faster and smoother journey times that will not also be prone to delays. ...

They said on the webinar that they can do the planned frequency and retain the crossing. It's not their preferred option obviously, and if in the future they increase the frequency further then at that point the crossing would prevent that. That's assuming they would have the rolling stock to supply future upgrades beyond DART+. Which is questionable since the Maynooth line is always the last on the list of priorities.

D15er · 21-10-2020 2:23pm

ongarboy wrote: »

Brand new duplexes and houses are currently being built in the shadow of Dr. Troy bridge right now and people will buy and live in them. Funny how they don't see that as an abomination!

Not really the same thing.

You can look at those duplexes, look at the bridge and then make an informed decision whether or not to buy one. With the new bridge, it's being imposed on houses that are there 20 years.

Also might be worth noting that those duplexes look to be very close to finished and have yet to be released to the market, so I presume they're either gone to social housing or institutional investors, who are less sensitive about these things. (but I have no hard info on that)

I know I sure as hell wouldn't buy one.

IngazZagni · 22-10-2020 12:52am

beauf wrote: »

You're being unreasonable and allergic to change.

They could just close Ashtown. It's a short walk to Parkway. Lots of land there to build as many bridges as they want.

I'm sorry but is this an attempt at trolling or what?
What benefit would your suggestion bring over the current preferred option?

beauf wrote: »

They said on the webinar that they can do the planned frequency and retain the crossing. It's not their preferred option obviously, and if in the future they increase the frequency further then at that point the crossing would prevent that. That's assuming they would have the rolling stock to supply future upgrades beyond DART+. Which is questionable since the Maynooth line is always the last on the list of priorities.

This would be so typically Irish. Spend millions on infrastructure for a top class dart line but not build one vital piece of infrastructure that will allow the trains to run at a high frequency that will be required in the years to come.

Zico · 22-10-2020 1:06am

This is exactly how Dublin will fall on bull****.

beauf · 22-10-2020 1:37am

IngazZagni wrote: »

...This would be so typically Irish. Spend millions on infrastructure for a top class dart line but not build one vital piece of infrastructure that will allow the trains to run at a high frequency that will be required in the years to come.

Typically Irish to over spend on every project for no reason.

Closing the Coolmine Crossing doesn't cost anything. The bridge doesn't have any impact on the trains. It only there for road traffic.

daymobrew · 22-10-2020 8:45am

IngazZagni wrote: »

Yep why am I not surprised. They clearly ignored the pedestrian bridge being maintained at its current location. No need to use it if you don’t want to. There is simply no option were people wouldn’t complain. Irish people are allergic to change.

The current pedestrian bridge does not cater for wheelchairs, buggies.

People from Martin Savage Park or outbound commuters that are unable to use the footbridge would have to travel up towards the Navan Road roundabout, down the road to the underpass and back again.

BonnieSituation · 22-10-2020 1:06pm

beauf wrote: »

Typically Irish to over spend on every project for no reason.

Closing the Coolmine Crossing doesn't cost anything. The bridge doesn't have any impact on the trains. It only there for road traffic.

How is it overspending?

VonLuck · 22-10-2020 1:40pm

daymobrew wrote: »

The current pedestrian bridge does not cater for wheelchairs, buggies.

People from Martin Savage Park or outbound commuters that are unable to use the footbridge would have to travel up towards the Navan Road roundabout, down the road to the underpass and back again.

I don't think that's quite right. There appears to be a new footpath which runs parallel to the canal to the south.

The drawings they've provided are a bit limited on detail though. I'd be curious to see what the tunnel looks like. Is there a footpath / cycle track either side?

IngazZagni · 22-10-2020 1:42pm

daymobrew wrote: »

The current pedestrian bridge does not cater for wheelchairs, buggies.

People from Martin Savage Park or outbound commuters that are unable to use the footbridge would have to travel up towards the Navan Road roundabout, down the road to the underpass and back again.

Very legitimate concern but I just had a look at the plans and it appears there will be a new pedestrian link between Ashtown stables and the track to Mill Lane and the new underpass. This will help somewhat. I wonder would it be feasible to build a new pedestrian bridge with a lift similar to the one recently built at Broombridge Station. This could allow wheelchair and buggy access without too much of a detour.

beauf · 22-10-2020 2:06pm

They did say that this was an initial tranche of consultation, that there will be other rounds.
Some were critical of the lack of detail in the webinar. But in the context of an initial consultation I wouldn't be losing sleep about that.

The worry of course, is they seemed to very set, biased even on certain options. Which makes people feel the public consultation is not entirely meaningful.
Or that the consultation stages will be curtailed.

daymobrew · 22-10-2020 6:15pm

VonLuck wrote: »

The drawings they've provided are a bit limited on detail though. I'd be curious to see what the tunnel looks like. Is there a footpath / cycle track either side?

I think that there is a footpath and cycle track on either side of the tunnel.

Chrisam · 24-10-2020 12:09pm

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here, is that Irish Rail's own matrices, in the documentation provided, are scored wrongly - multiple times - not even following its own legend. When these errors are corrected, the "emerging preferred option", i.e. the flyover bridge at Stationcourt/Riverwood, comes in 4th of 8 options! Now, whoever put that document to paper was having a bad day, but I find it hard to believe that nobody else checked the matrices and missed those glaring errors too.

The NTA are pushing for this bridge, not because of trains, but because they need it to cope with traffic exiting the new Kellystown development, down the road. Kellystown is a greenfield development of 1,500 houses, being built along the canal (opposite Clonsilla village), without a bridge. FCC has even included the proposed bridge at Coolmine, on their own Kellystown plans - before Irish Rail has even selected it!

Quite a coup, using a Green Minister for Transport, to push a traffic bridge through, using a Railway Order (based on dodgy scoring).

beauf · 24-10-2020 1:45pm

Dosent make sense to me why they are pushing all this traffic at a very small concentrated area. A location that they already said many times over is congested. They should be trying to divert it elsewhere and dissipate the traffic over a wider area.

There is a reluctance to change and for those who use it to commute and who can't see all alternative route to drive that isn't slower.

I don't understand the Kellystown plan either. It seems to have very poor access for no good reason, and the main flow of traffic is very likely to be into the same congested area.

But if people want things to change they have to think out of the box. That means planning your life and work and school so you aren't relying on the car at peak times. You can tell from people's comments they have organised schools and work that leave them no choice but to fight through traffic every day. They've painted themselves into a corner.

galtsdrift · 25-10-2020 2:07pm

beauf wrote: »

Dosent make sense to me why they are pushing all this traffic at a very small concentrated area. A location that they already said many times over is congested. They should be trying to divert it elsewhere and dissipate the traffic over a wider area.

There is a reluctance to change and for those who use it to commute and who can't see all alternative route to drive that isn't slower.

I don't understand the Kellystown plan either. It seems to have very poor access for no good reason, and the main flow of traffic is very likely to be into the same congested area.

But if people want things to change they have to think out of the box. That means planning your life and work and school so you aren't relying on the car at peak times. You can tell from people's comments they have organised schools and work that leave them no choice but to fight through traffic every day. They've painted themselves into a corner.

Buses

beauf · 25-10-2020 3:34pm

galtsdrift wrote: »

Buses

Bicycles...

Chrisam · 26-10-2020 8:55pm

beauf wrote: »

Dosent make sense to me why they are pushing all this traffic at a very small concentrated area. A location that they already said many times over is congested. They should be trying to divert it elsewhere and dissipate the traffic over a wider area.

There is a reluctance to change and for those who use it to commute and who can't see all alternative route to drive that isn't slower.

I don't understand the Kellystown plan either. It seems to have very poor access for no good reason, and the main flow of traffic is very likely to be into the same congested area.

But if people want things to change they have to think out of the box. That means planning your life and work and school so you aren't relying on the car at peak times. You can tell from people's comments they have organised schools and work that leave them no choice but to fight through traffic every day. They've painted themselves into a corner.

They've been trying to get a bridge in that Coolmine location since approx 2011. It was rejected in the 2017-2023 Fingal Development Plan, which is why Fingal can't be seen to introduce it now. If they want a wider road, for pedestrian, cycle and wider traffic lanes, it would be too challenging to build a bridge where the level crossing is now. Hence why they want to use a green space and make it 15 metres wide.

Re Kellystown plan, there was a bridge in earlier versions (near the petrol station, joining the Ongar link road), but they built houses on the land ...

beauf · 26-10-2020 9:00pm

You'd think another link from Clonsilla rd to Luttrelstown rd via Kellystown would be useful in the future.

Chrisam · 26-10-2020 9:02pm

beauf wrote: »

You'd think another link from Clonsilla rd to Luttrelstown rd via Kellystown would be useful in the future.

There's no link from Kellystown to Luttrellstown Road either. Only exits are east and west of the development.

Brock Turnpike · 26-10-2020 11:51pm

Chrisam wrote: »

There's no link from Kellystown to Luttrellstown Road either. Only exits are east and west of the development.

FFS. It's like FCC are deliberately trying to destroy the area and make it as congested as possible.

IngazZagni · 27-10-2020 10:08am

Brock Turnpike wrote: »

FFS. It's like FCC are deliberately trying to destroy the area and make it as congested as possible.

The southern half of Kellystown will be a park and other recreational space. I not sure why you would want another junction onto a small country road.

There will be a pedestrian and cycling bridge between Kellystown and the Clonsilla Road more or less in the middle.

beauf · 27-10-2020 10:20am

That's no longer a small country road. Substantial traffic on it now.. If you want a main road into town that doesn't weave through residential estates and a multitude of junctions. That is it. As soon as they upgrade that road they will want to build on the green areas all along it. It's only a matter of time. It's only tokenism not to have an exit on it now. As it will all use other routes to get it anyway.

IngazZagni · 27-10-2020 11:19am

I’m referring to it’s character not the traffic levels. The development plan specifically states that they want to keep the “Country character” of Porterstown road. I don’t think you are correct. The area directly north of this road and south of the new link road within Kellystown is designated as green space in Fingals own area plan.
I understand you won’t believe them but any development plans on this green area will most likely be blocked by legal challenges especially when the new park is actually built.

beauf · 27-10-2020 11:53am

Already chipping away at that, with

New estate on it, Diswellstown Manor.
Opened up direct access at Dr Troy.
Now Kellystown.
When Riverwood/Luttrelstown etc were built they have no access to Luttrelstown Road. Now they do.
Proposed Coolmine bridge will open the floodgates yet further.

Any hope of "Country character" LOL is long gone. I also think they might be saying one thing but doing another.

They have to build housing somewhere. But there doesn't seem to be a plan here. There is no traffic study of where traffic is actually going. They look at the odd junction. But no overall picture. You can't reduce the throughput of all the roads out of D15 going to City Centre, but funnel more traffic at those bottlenecks and just shrug your shoulders and say it can't be helped.

IngazZagni · 27-10-2020 12:51pm

The area plan should mean no more junctions onto Porterstown (or Luttrelstown?) road west of Dr Troy bridge road. It has been a mish mash of developments before this. Ideally we wouldn’t even need to build this much housing outside the M50. However there are half finished apartment blocks in the Docklands being blocked because DCC suddenly thinks anything over 7 stories in that area is inappropriate. In the docklands!! So here we are. Rent prices a complete joke and homelessness at an all time high. Needs must.

beauf · 27-10-2020 1:01pm

IngazZagni wrote: »

... So here we are. Rent prices a complete joke and homelessness at an all time high. Needs must.

I don't think housing crisis is an excuse for such shambolic planning. But whatever. They'll do whatever they want eventually. Kinda pointless to argue against it.

Chrisam · 27-10-2020 1:39pm

IngazZagni wrote: »

I’m referring to it’s character not the traffic levels. The development plan specifically states that they want to keep the “Country character” of Porterstown road. I don’t think you are correct. The area directly north of this road and south of the new link road within Kellystown is designated as green space in Fingals own area plan.
I understand you won’t believe them but any development plans on this green area will most likely be blocked by legal challenges especially when the new park is actually built.

Interesting that you say legal challenges, if building on green spaces, but that's exactly what they want to do from Stationcourt to Riverwood! Also note that any pedestrian bridge link from Kellystown to Clonsilla village is to be provided by the developer, so let's see if that ever happens.

IngazZagni · 27-10-2020 1:44pm

Yes but in fairness that is a unique situation and it’s taken years of planning and proposals just to get to this stage.

I haven’t read the full facts for the bridge you are referring to. I know it is in phase 2. Usually these things would need to be built in order for them to sell or rent the properties within phase 2. Most developments these days that require green space have this requirement.

Former Former Former · 30-07-2021 8:28am

https://www.dartplus.ie/en-ie/projects/dart-west

Updated plans are out for consultation 2.

Changes at Coolmine had been well flagged, otherwise nothing major that is different. Proposals for the protected bridges look fairly decent.

Most controversial new element may be the rerouted underpass at Ashtown which will now result in the loss of the stables. Unless there is alternative land provided, that's going to result in legal challenges.