Pancake electricity for all!!!!!

gar32 · 23-07-2006 4:22am #1

Can people power be used to give us all cheap electricty?

Was thinking about said hike in power charges in all their forms. Why can't people & small communities do away with large power stations or at least reduce dependence on them. Why can't each home have a small wind mill for power, some solar panels for the few sunny days we have maybe a peddle generator for when you exercise. Maybe gas or oil, or even wood chip generator or a mix of these & many more ways to make your own power. It would be like the internet now compared when years ago only large computers where used. Decentralise the generation of electricity or at least get everyone to add to it in as clean & helpful way they can.
I have heard stories of car generator from old car’s been used in home made wind generation & stored in car batteries which then is converted to 220V for normal use. People would have the choice to add to the grid or take depending on what their output is. I know there are problems to get this started but if enough people worked on them every home could cut their energy bills by a large amount. I have many other idea’s on how this could be done but don’t want to go on 1st time on site. Thanks for reading please leave your views on idea.

Endymion · 23-07-2006 4:27am

gar32 wrote:

Can people power be used to give us all cheap electricty?

Was thinking about said hike in power charges in all their forms. Why can't people & small communities do away with large power stations or at least reduce dependence on them. Why can't each home have a small wind mill for power, some solar panels for the few sunny days we have maybe a peddle generator for when you exercise. Maybe gas or oil, or even wood chip generator or a mix of these & many more ways to make your own power. It would be like the internet now compared when years ago only large computers where used. Decentralise the generation of electricity or at least get everyone to add to it in as clean & helpful way they can.
I have heard stories of car generator from old car’s been used in home made wind generation & stored in car batteries which then is converted to 220V for normal use. People would have the choice to add to the grid or take depending on what their output is. I know there are problems to get this started but if enough people worked on them every home could cut their energy bills by a large amount. I have many other idea’s on how this could be done but don’t want to go on 1st time on site. Thanks for reading please leave your views on idea.

Combined heat and power technolodgy which used heat pumps, died a death some years back ,after the goverment decided to ban local grids. Look into it, no one is going to make the type of investments needed for a local grids in this country as long as the ESB still holds influence.

gar32 · 25-07-2006 9:29am

As you rightly point out investment is needed but when looked at in the long term & the cost saving maybe things need to be revisited. Good example would be the tram in Dublin. Things have truned around there with return of the tram. Any I way was hoping that newer equipment & better ways of generating would save us all in the long run which is where I am looking. Thing change slow but have to start some where.

Endymion · 25-07-2006 10:55am

gar32 wrote:

As you rightly point out investment is needed but when looked at in the long term & the cost saving maybe things need to be revisited. Good example would be the tram in Dublin. Things have truned around there with return of the tram. Any I way was hoping that newer equipment & better ways of generating would save us all in the long run which is where I am looking. Thing change slow but have to start some where.

The sentiment is good. But ordinary citizens would never be allowed to develope their own grid, in the way groups like Irishwan( i think it was them anyway) developed their own private broadband network. You can buy equipment now, if you want to generate your own personal power, such as heat pumps, solar panels and small wind mill type things. You can also buy motors that run on alcohol or red disel to generate your own personal power. All these things cost allot of money.

gar32 · 27-07-2006 1:53pm

Looking at the cost of a small wind turbine or solar panel now it seems like it would cost more to get started then money you would save. Just needs some one or company to spend time & money on doing thing cheaper. There is a radio that does not need batteries, Parking meters that are solar powered and many other things coming online that could change things around very fast if mass produced. I am looking for ideas to help with this generation of electricity. Good to hear what would not work but what would work is a harder answer to find. We have now a problem that we have time to think about but how long. Oil running out, Oil companies have bought all the idea’s that would have replaced them sooner. They are going to milk us for all they can get unless people can show we don’t need fossil fuel. What you think could be done other then the nuclear plan the UK have just came out with????

Endymion · 27-07-2006 11:02pm

powerless radios have existed for decades.

mathias · 02-08-2006 5:37am

Powerless radios ? Now that is something , I'd like to see one of those , ....

Seriously though , you mean battery-less radios , as in clockwork radios , they still need power , albeit derived from the stored energy of a spring but power nonetheless !!

Thomas_S_Hunterson · 02-08-2006 9:01am

mathias wrote:

Powerless radios ? Now that is something , I'd like to see one of those , ....

Seriously though , you mean battery-less radios , as in clockwork radios , they still need power , albeit derived from the stored energy of a spring but power nonetheless !!

Actually, a powerless radio is theoretically possible, one can make a radio which runs passively from the radio waves it receives

Along the lines of this:

OK i accept it's not technically powerless, but it is powered totally passively

lucernarian · 02-08-2006 11:29am

RFID tags work on the same principle- well the passive ones anyway:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID

People power can be used I feel but the idea of localised, shared electricity will be awkward to implement with the ESB around. It's possible to have green sources alright. We all know of solar panels and wind generators etc. The problem with those though is the cost of setting those up and having to store the power in batteries which only last so long.

06-08-2006 10:55am

sean_keevey wrote:

Actually, a powerless radio is theoretically possible, one can make a radio which runs passively from the radio waves it receives

Along the lines of this:

OK i accept it's not technically powerless, but it is powered totally passively

In the 1940's some one living near Droitwich built a scaled up version and was able to power the lights in his house :eek:

The BBC were a bit upset as be ruined the transmission pattern for the "light" (I think) program broadcasting on 200KHz (1500m), when they caught up with him, he showed them his radio license.

The BBC had to ask him politely not to "listen" so intensely...

gar32 · 10-08-2006 4:48pm

If this man could get power from broadcast radio could it be done that power could be changed from natural radio waves or waves a different frequences from space??? Would not need to be on a big scale be have lots of them everywhere. Like sea wave power machines work but at radio wave powers.??? Just asking if possible not saying it could be done.

theCzar · 19-08-2006 10:18am

Carnivore wrote:

Combined heat and power technolodgy which used heat pumps, died a death some years back ,after the goverment decided to ban local grids. Look into it, no one is going to make the type of investments needed for a local grids in this country as long as the ESB still holds influence.

ESB are being asked to both act as supplier of last resort and as an independent supplier, so they have to raise prices and cut costs. By reducing investment in infrastructure, they're simply echoing a mistake made by a thousand companys down through the 20th century.

"We're spending all this cash on infrastructure and maintenance, and everything's running fine! what a waste of money! lets slash expenditure and increase dividend, I'm a business genius, bonus anyone?"

Trying to open the electricity market was a disaster, we don't have a large enough market. Before hand, Ireland had some of the cheapest electricty in Europe, ESB prices were so low, no company could compete, so to get competition (with the desire to increase effciency, and lower prices for the consumer) the regulator had to increase prices. Privatising essential services looks swish and modern but its invariably a bad thing for the consumer.

nobodythere · 09-09-2006 3:42pm

Is it possible from an engineering standpoint to merge two different types of power together? For example if you had a local grid could it be fed into the main grid and used together, which would reduce electricity consumption from the ESB until it needed to be used

Scratchface · 11-09-2006 4:37pm

There is a grant available from the Department of the enviornment to put Solar panels on your roof which will heat the water and the house. I think the cost is about 4,500 and the grant is around 1,500. There is also a grant for a wood pellet system, but you need the space to store the large hopper which holds the pellets, and the conveyer belt which feeds the boiler.

Capt'n Midnight · 12-09-2006 12:36am

grasshopa wrote:

Is it possible from an engineering standpoint to merge two different types of power together? For example if you had a local grid could it be fed into the main grid and used together, which would reduce electricity consumption from the ESB until it needed to be used

dead easy with the appropiate electronics, only slightly more complex than a UPS without a battery.
The tricks are
matching the voltage
matching the phase
knowing when to pull or push current

Energy reduction is a better goal. In Sweden houses can be heated passively from waste heat from people and electrical devices.

Things like wind could be used too, the thing to do is check your ESB bill to se how much power you use and then scale things accordingly.

gar32 · 16-04-2007 4:18am

I seen a childrens round about bing used to generate power for lighting for a class room. Also seen mini wind turbines in winds of skyscrapers on CSB & ABC Tech news. Seems like my Idea is happening after all. Padel powered TV being sold too as you watch TV you keep fit. Energy is every where we just need to harness it. Any idea where I could get small solar panel & small wind geni for use at home?? All power too you!!!

Victor · 22-04-2007 10:26pm

No offence, but your posts come acoss as unrealistic.

gar32 wrote:

Maybe gas or oil, or even wood chip generator or a mix of these & many more ways to make your own power.

Why do you think thousands of small generators will be more efficient that one large generator. What of the noise, pollution and fire hazard?

gar32 wrote:

Padel powered TV being sold too as you watch TV you keep fit.

How big a TV and how many people peddling?

gar32 · 07-05-2007 5:09pm

Unrealistic ?? Is the not more items in your home using batteries then before? Think of items like Clocks, remotes, phones, cameras & many more items all over the place using power. You have too think of maybe solar cell on remote to charge battery inside. Maybe you have seen radio that has hand cranked power feed to rechargeable battery inside. These are all items you can by now. I am trying to get the idea across that where you use power next to it should be something making power for it. less waste in traveling from station to your home. Resistance in electricity system is massive due to not having super conductor wires yet. And just to let you know TV's can run with less power then before. 1 person peddling would & feeding into a battery or capacitor would have a enough power. It is already coming I am just infoming you. Maybe you could add to Idea??

bushy... · 08-05-2007 3:39pm

Humans aren't that powerful , you'd probably be struggling to make a few hundred watts for more than 20mins, wouldn't be enough for a plasma or a pc. For power through radiowaves , go google "Tesla " before the coffee wears off

gar32 · 08-05-2007 4:25pm

People are missing the point of my message here. It the power from many small itams added together. ie wind turbine small on your roof, with solar panel & maybe man power feed into your house system which would have the mains too if your not feeling fit that day. As for Tesla madness is close to what???

BendiBus · 01-06-2007 10:47pm

Remember dynamo powered lights on bicycles? Do they still exist? Using the same principle you could charge some NiMH batteries while cycling to work each day. Save on petrol/diesel used by a car, bus or train, and generate power while keeping fit.

mawk · 06-06-2007 2:13am

gar32 wrote:

Resistance in electricity system is massive due to not having super conductor wires yet.

eeh thats a pretty hopeful "yet"

anyway etci regs state that anything over 4% is a totally unaceptable loss. so every wiring situation in the country is losing less than 9v over 230.
which isnt all that bad.

I know there are losses in transmission but im not sure theyre all that massive.

i kinda wonder how much energy they lose by conversion to sound. theres a transformer station a bit up the way from me and the hummmmmmm would do your nut in

Capt'n Midnight · 06-06-2007 11:37pm

BendiBus wrote:

Remember dynamo powered lights on bicycles? Do they still exist? Using the same principle you could charge some NiMH batteries while cycling to work each day. Save on petrol/diesel used by a car, bus or train, and generate power while keeping fit.

Bicycle Dynamo is 3 watts.

Dynamo gives out 500mA nominal. It would take 4 hours to charge high capacity NiMH AA's. You can put several batteries in series but you would also loose 1.2-1.4V on the bridge rectifier, which is the same as a battery.

Victor · 06-06-2007 11:37pm

mawk wrote:

I know there are losses in transmission but im not sure theyre all that massive.

I understand thats why we go from 240V to 220V - about a 9% loss.

cosie · 07-06-2007 4:32pm

Losses in an electricity transmission and distribution network would be typically in the 10% range for an efficient network.

Most of the power is lost from the heating of the high voltage electricity cables. In underground cable they can run at anything up to 70 - 90 degrees Celsius.

In relation to 220 -240 V, this is due to voltage drop which occurs in a circuit when you have a resistance. This can either be due to the cables resistance itself or due the fact that there are numerous customers on the network before you. This voltage drop can change throughout the day depending and how much electricity the customers are using at any time.

Distributed generation can and does work where individuals generate their own electricity and export what they are not using. In the UK it is increasing popular for this setup to occur.

Capt'n Midnight · 07-06-2007 6:08pm

Victor wrote:

I understand thats why we go from 240V to 220V - about a 9% loss.

It's a fudge thing too. We used to be 240V and the continent used to be 220V both plus/minus a few percent. So like good europeans we're all on 230V http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity

Following voltage harmonisation co-ordinated with CENELEC countries, all electricity supply within the EU is now nominally 230 V ± 10% (though some countries have stricter specifications: for example, the UK specifies 230 V +10% −6%). In practice this means that countries such as the UK that previously supplied 240 V continue to do so, and those that previously supplied 220 V continue to do so. However equipment should be designed to accept any voltages within the specified range, and in practice most do so.

gar32 · 24-06-2007 12:28pm

Was thinking while looking at a windmill electrcity farm. Why are they not multi story? Like 2 or 3 maybe more blades on one large mast? this would increase power without more space been taken. Yes it would have a few new problems but worth working on for the good of the planet.

Capt'n Midnight · 24-06-2007 3:06pm

gar32 wrote:

Was thinking while looking at a windmill electrcity farm. Why are they not multi story? Like 2 or 3 maybe more blades on one large mast? this would increase power without more space been taken. Yes it would have a few new problems but worth working on for the good of the planet.

because the power is proportional to the swept area of the blades. If you have a tower 30 meters tall you could have 2 turbines of 20m diameter or one turbine of 60m. The 20m turbines would have a power proportinal to 400 each, the lower one less because closer to the ground. The 60m turbine would be extracting power over 3,600 possibly higher since the top of the turbine would be extracting power 120m away from the ground.

Buffer · 06-07-2007 1:23am

Heard about something recently which seems relevant to this thread:

Pacific Gas & Electric allows what is termed distributed generation, where individual houses to have solar panels, turbines or other forms of electricity generation connected into their grid. In the simplest case, any electricity generated by a customer is offset from their electricity bill (net energy metering). I believe it's driven by a Californian law requiring utilities to allow net metering.

Here's a link on the PG&E website. Not ideal, but I can't track down the newspaper article where I saw this originally.

gar32 · 30-03-2009 1:43am

Just have to add this after reading today. This is the kind of thing I was talking about but could not explain as well!!!

March 27, 2009
Flowing Blood Could Power iPods and Cell Phones
Power generated from flowing blood, simple body movements or a gentle breeze could one day be converted to electricity to charge iPods, cell phones and other personal electronic devices. LiveScience reports.

Researchers reported today they can harvest energy by converting low-frequency vibrations, like simple body movements, the beating of the heart or movement of the wind, into electricity by using zinc oxide nanowires that conduct the electricity. The nanowires are piezoelectric — they generate an electric current when subjected to mechanical stress.

gar32 · 16-03-2010 4:57am

http://www.popsci.com/environment/article/2009-01/harvesting-energy-humans

Some times I feel I am far ahead of myself

mawk · 21-03-2010 5:58pm

braaaainns!!

*shuffle slowly

(though the field of microgeneration and renewable sources has certainly moved on a lot since 2006. I even built a wind turbine)

gar32 · 17-04-2010 10:58am

What book of web site did you use pleaase?

Can small ones be made

mawk wrote: »

braaaainns!!

*shuffle slowly

(though the field of microgeneration and renewable sources has certainly moved on a lot since 2006. I even built a wind turbine)

Capt'n Midnight · 17-04-2010 11:33am

Solar / wind is OK for the small stuff

but things with heaters and big motors need serious power
- washing machines
- vacuum cleaners
- steam irons
- microwave ovens
- hair dryers
- pumps for central heating

It's hard to justify the resources needed to power them compared to connecting to the ESB.

so check out if there is a local Laundrette if you want to go off-grid

otherwise plan to invest as much in low power devices as you do in your solar panels / turbines / battery backup

desertstorm · 22-04-2010 9:45pm

If you're really interested in how to deal with energy problems, I really recommend reading this book

http://www.withouthotair.com/

you can either read it online for free from that website, or buy it

Small scale windmills don't work, they were implemented in Japan in one city, but it wound up using more power than it made as the company that made them were so embarresed they started sending power to the turbines to make them look like they were turning

PV isn't efficient or cost effective enough yet

I pretty sure that the energy from your body idea won't become a reality any time soon

I don't think small scale energy is a good idea at all, generally the bigger the better. Also if you wanted to develop wind or wave energy more to a point where it can meet our current demands, you'd have to go county/counties-sized

Even going nuclear wouldn't be a total answer as nuclear power plants can't vary their outputs to keep up with the population's wildly varying power demands (energy storage systems like at Turlough Hill would have to be incorperated)

Whatever the answer is, it's not going to be any one energy source.

A much better aim is to change the way people use energy, it's crazy how much energy is dumped out of the average house for example.

Definetly give that book a read, it's recommended reading for us students and it's probably the only one I've read the whole way through (also it's a pretty easy read!)

Personally I'm waiting (a long time no doubt...) for the day DD fusion comes around

gar32 · 22-06-2012 2:07pm

http://www.euronews.com/2012/06/21/friendly-virus-used-to-generate-electricity/

pljudge321 · 22-06-2012 6:45pm

Simple answer to the original OP's proposition.

We could, it would just be massively expensive and less efficient.

bnt · 22-06-2012 9:15pm

I've been wondering about Combined Heat & Power (Cogeneration) for a while, and I've heard there are some working installations in Germany, for example. The basic idea is that you generate electricity from natural gas (usually) and feed it in the grid, with the waste heat from the process heating the house & water as normal.

Looking at the big picture, I can see a much larger role for renewable energy, with fossil fuels & nuclear taking up the slack. The major criticism of renewables is that they're unreliable; the wind dies down, clouds cover the sun, and so on. But that's not a deal-breaker if you can vary the fossil fuel use to compensate, and have better control over loads (the "smart grid" idea). If renewables can meet 50% of the global energy requirements, we'd be doubling the life of the remaining non-renewables, and that's not to be sniffed at.

Capt'n Midnight · 23-06-2012 11:34am

bnt wrote: »

I've been wondering about Combined Heat & Power (Cogeneration) for a while, and I've heard there are some working installations in Germany,

Calor do it here http://www.calorgas.ie/calor-for-business/innovations/chp/

1 KW electricity.
the waste heat from your electrical appliances will also heat your house so it's nearly free electricity, no idea of costs though

Note if considering powering your life from something like this consider replacing you electric gadgets with more efficient ones

Turbulent Bill · 23-06-2012 5:43pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Calor do it here http://www.calorgas.ie/calor-for-business/innovations/chp/

1 KW electricity.
the waste heat from your electrical appliances will also heat your house so it's nearly free electricity, no idea of costs though

I worked for a company about a decade ago involved in this, was connected to Bord Gais. The basic idea was to install large natural gas-powered IC engines in industrial/commerical buildings to generate electricity, with the waste heat from the engine and exhaust used to heat water. There might have been a grid connection too for redundancy/electricity export, but I can't remember.

It worked efficiently once the required ratio of heat:electricity matched that of the engine (much more heat produced than electricity). For something like a swimming pool or pharma plant it would be perfect.

I've lost touch with the technology but it was ahead of its time, at least in Ireland.

crazy cabbage · 30-06-2012 10:58am

i think it would be a much better idea to become much more efficient with our energy use before realisticly trying to do anything stated here (have the debate and bash ideas around though. they can only help)

rant mode on
when you go to boil an egg you are using gas that has proberly been gotten from the middle east. it is minned with alot of energy losses and put abord trucks or trains (more energy) to be trainsported to a ship. while then is shiped to ireland (more energy). then put on more trucks to go to distributers to go to retailers (more energy loss). you then drive up in your car (more energy loss) to buy your bottle of gas. you then turn the knob to turn on the heat under your pot. There is alot of losses there too. heat then goes into heating up your pot. then goes into heating up your water. finaly it goes into heating up your egg. from what i remember only about 9% of the total energy used ascully goes into the egg.
Then all that hot water we spent so much energy heating up goes down the kitchen sink
rant mode off

What i am trying to say is that we can have all the windmill and solor things we want but we need to become much more efficient first. When we are efficient prehaps renewables will have a realistic chance of providieing our energy needs

gar32 · 26-04-2016 2:12pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx_lA2AB8ys

my dreams are coming true

Dardania · 26-04-2016 3:34pm

10 years since you started this thread?! You have staying power - respect!

gar32 · 24-10-2017 4:23pm

https://billionsinchange.com/solutions/free-electric-past/

Yet again my dream from over 11 years ago coming to past

gar32 · 31-08-2019 10:55pm

Well this is what I was talking about. Here now

https://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/electricity-out-of-essentially-nothing-invention-creates-power-from-falling-snow-1.4404825

SlowBlowin · 31-08-2019 11:01pm

Deleted User wrote: »

In the 1940's some one living near Droitwich built a scaled up version and was able to power the lights in his house :eek:

The BBC were a bit upset as be ruined the transmission pattern for the "light" (I think) program broadcasting on 200KHz (1500m), when they caught up with him, he showed them his radio license.

The BBC had to ask him politely not to "listen" so intensely...

As a young lad I realised I could draw a small current from the phone line for free. Draw too much and the line would activate, but keep it at 15 ma and all was good. I used this to trickle charge batteries and run LEDs for free, as far as I know this still works.

I am extremely tight

Pancake electricity for all!!!!!

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