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Waterford Probate Court?

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  • 16-12-2014 12:21am
    #1
    hblock21
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭


    If a will was proved at Waterford in 1891. Would this be at a court? Does anybody know what court in Waterford (Presumed Waterford City) dealt with wills at the end of the 1800's?
    I know that the will more than likely does not exist. But I found it on the calendars and would like to find out where in Waterford the probate took place. Maybe they might have further details on file in archive..


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    #2
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    If anything survives, it will now be in the National Archives. There were (and are) district Probate registries. I'll have a check when I'm home to see which is closest to Waterford (if indeed, there isn't one there). The good news is that these registries had duplicates of what they sent to the PRO, so it's possible a full will survives.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #3
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    National Archives - here


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    #4
    hblock21
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭hblock21


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    National Archives - here

    There seams to be a lot of additional information added to this page compared to a few years ago.

    "Grant Books containing copies of grants made in the civil Principal Registry since 1922 and in 1878, 1883 and 1891 and of most grants made in the civil District Registries since 1858"

    So there might be something available as per the above. I will enquire with the NAI.
    What would be in a grant book?


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    #5
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Yes, just to add, there was a district repository in Waterford itself.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #6
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    The grant book is a register of the grant of probate details - date, deceased, address, date of death, executor and amount of estate. Are they not available online already?


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    #7
    hblock21
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭hblock21


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    The grant book is a register of the grant of probate details - date, deceased, address, date of death, executor and amount of estate. Are they not available online already?

    So the Grant Books are the probate calendar books then - which are online. I have the above info from the calendar entry.
    Doesn't make sense why they split out and mention 1878, 1883 and 1891 as if there is additional information for these years...

    "Grant Books containing copies of grants made in the civil Principal Registry since 1922 and in 1878, 1883 and 1891 and of most grants made in the civil District Registries since 1858"


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    #8
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    I think you are confusing the Principal Registry with the District Registries. As Pinky said above, Waterford was one of the latter which kept a copy of every will it probated and sent the original to Dublin. All original wills were stored in the Public Records Office in the Four Courts and were destroyed in 1922 (a tiny number survived). After that the PRO started to rebuild the info by obtaining copies / details / whatever they could from District Regs, law firms and others; e.g. the Inland Revenue in London gave what it held.
    AFAIK the years show what is available and as Waterford was a District Reg., you should be in luck.
    (I'm not an expert on this and as I'm writing from memory open to correction.)


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    #9
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    As an example - the Will calendar entries on PRONI have some images of their transcripts from district registries, i.e. from Armagh, Belfast and Londonderry. These are summaries from the originals, so probably what is referred to as grant books.


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    #10
    hblock21
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭hblock21


    "Each registry made copies of wills and administrations that it proved in 'will and admon books' and after 20 years sent the originals to the Public Record Office in Dublin. The originals and copies, of almost all records of the Principal Probate Registry (which also had jurisdiction as a district court over the counties of Dublin and Kildare) were destroyed in the fire that consumed the Public Record Office in 1922.
    Copies of wills and administrations kept by other district registries have been gathered into the National Archives and the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland, where they remain grouped by district. To determine the district registry that served your county of interest, see the Irish Probates Register or Anthony Camp, Wills and Their Whereabouts."
    https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Ireland_Probate_Records#Online.C2.A0Indexes.C2.A0and_Wills.C2.A0

    I had always presumed that originals and copies of ALL wills were destroyed. This is news to me.

    But why then on the NAI website does it not say District register wills/probates are available. The below is confusing to me. Perhaps the key word is "Original" but if there are "copies" why do they not say that???

    (a) Original wills and administration papers lodged in the Principal Registry since 1904 and in most District Registries since 1900 (indexed in the annual calendars; wills and administration papers lodged in Armagh, Belfast and Londonderry are in PRONI). Original wills and administration papers are transferred to the National Archives once the grant is 20 years old


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    #11
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,622 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    I think it's part of the general mythology that nothing survived the fire but I do agree the terminology could be made clearer. I have seen wills proved in Dublin in the 19th century but they were typed out, as if transcribed from an original damaged one.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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    #12
    hblock21
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭hblock21


    It was like drawing blood from a stone but eventually I got the info I needed.

    Maybe this is common knowledge but this is news to me. Apparently, "District Registry transcript wills are available in microfilm format" - that is a direct quote from an email from the NAI. There is no need to order these wills in advance or anything - they are on site freely available.

    Why is this information not on the NAI website, I know they can't be spoon feeding us all the time but I cannot know this info if not told.

    I am delighted that the will I want to see is available but at the same time frustrated as I can only visit the archive once maybe every two years as I live in the UK. I was there last August and if I knew the above then....

    Oh and here's some more info I got in the NAI email:
    "Schedules of Assets for the District Registries do not survive before 1904. Neither do the Oaths of the Executors."
    "grant of probate does not survive" - this was in reply to my 1891 probated will, I presume they survive after 1904 - same goes for the grants of administration files I presume.


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