Hot take: Multiculturalism is good

Yer Da sells Avon · 07-03-2019 10:14pm

OneEightSeven wrote: »

Yes, Pakistani men grooming and raping underage girls is just fine an dandy.

The Internet, you mean the place where people can freely express their thoughts and not have to worry about being vilified, fired or even violently assaulted just for stating the truth?

Life is too short to worry about your daughters or working-class girls being groomed and raped by Muslims in your hometown?

"Ah, sure, my daughter is being plied with drugs and alcohol with the intent of grooming her for sexual proposes, but I'll be dead in a few decades so be grand like."

Yeah, you definitely seem like a calm, happy and rational person.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 07-03-2019 10:14pm

kildare lad wrote: »

ye it worked out well in tyrellstown and balbriggan, id a uncle that lived in birmingham since the late 60's . We went over to visit him 15 years ago and to say it was a culture shock was an understatement. Mosques, women wearing bin liners, all the blokes looking like taliban, He was the only white person left on his road ,all the rest were muslim, He was just waiting to get his pension so he could move back to Ireland. He said it was a lovely area when he first got there but as more and more starting moving into the area , the natives starting moving out. Thats not muticulturalism , its an invasion

Tyrellstown is plenty safe. Not sure what’s going on with that belief.

Jmsg · 07-03-2019 10:14pm

Perhaps when alcohol is banned under sharia only then will the Irish lift their head up from under the sand and give a damn.

ArchXStanton · 07-03-2019 10:20pm

Norm Peterson wrote: »

Multi culturalism would mean countries were distinct and different from each other and going to another country would be a somewhat unique experience.

What the opening post seems to want is homogenization which is a horrible thing that unfortunately will be difficult to stop.

if I want to experience East Asian culture I'll go to East Asia, if I want to experience Middle Eastern Culture I'll go to the middle east etc.etc.

A small amount of multiculturalism is OK, too much of it would be a terrible thing.

I'm only back from Czech Republic, I got talking to a Czech fella at a bar over there and he asked me what way we were in Ireland with migrants, I told him it's increased an awful lot in the last few years and I don't think it's going to slow down. I then said to him when I go to the Czech Republic or any country for that matter, I want to see the people of that country, their language, history and customs, immerse myself in it and come away with a clear picture of the people and place. If I wanted a melting pot of different nationalities I'd go to Toronto or New York were they all stay in their own neighbourhoods... He was in full agreement

Franz Von Peppercorn · 07-03-2019 10:20pm

Jmsg wrote: »

Perhaps when alcohol is banned under sharia only then will the Irish lift their head up from under the sand and give a damn.

Not going to happen for centuries if ever. Most Muslim countries have alcohol for minorities.

However of course societies will charge. A lot of people assume that if you add culture B to culture A you get culture A again. That or they use the idea of multi culturalism to promote secularism in hospitals etc. Which isn’t the same thing.

What’s likely to happen is that parts of society will have different morals, customs and conventions (and maybe laws) to the rest of us. Happening already. In Britain (in Birmingham) Muslim parents are protesting LGBT inclusive education. As is their right. I wonder what the op thinks.

https://twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1103718078980997121

Odhinn · 07-03-2019 10:23pm

Jmsg wrote: »

Perhaps when alcohol is banned under sharia only then will the Irish lift their head up from under the sand and give a damn.

They're burying us in Sand now?

Wibbs · 07-03-2019 10:58pm

Sand wrote: »

You say that but no European politician dares hold a referendum on mass migration. Because as recently as 2017 55% of Europeans surveyed in 10 countries wanted a total ban on Muslim immigration.

Indigenous peoples can obviously have a far more negative view on the matter to the migrants who are arriving. Your talk of 'net positives' is obviously wrong, but its also deceptive. The costs of mass migration are borne by the indigenous people, with the benefits accruing to the migrants.

I'd agree with all of that Sand, save for the last sentence. I'm not so sure about the benefits to the migrant populations. This is usually left out of this debate on all sides. Now this most applies to those that stand out from the indigenous population, different skin tone, religion. The people that "pass" more easily for locals don't tend to suffer the same trajectory*.

The usual narrative is the first generation are fine, they try to build lives and families in their new home. The trouble comes with the second and subsequent generations. They're told they're French/Irish/British/whatever but they realise early on in life that they're not quite French/Irish/British/whatever. This naturally and quite understandably leads to a dissatisfaction and kickback against the country they find themselves in. The country that they belong to, but not quite. Look at the UK. The first bunch of folks from their former colonies that arrived in the 50's, faced a lot of suspicion all the way to outright racism, yet no riots, no gangs of dissatisfied youth etc. Fast forward to the 70's when their kids came of age and you had the Brixton and Toxteth riots and things have hardly improved since. When you see the current stabbing attacks stats they're almost exclusively "people of colour" as both the perps and victims of it, young Black men, as young men are the most likely to kick off this stuff as their anger if not channeled positively tends to get directed outward. So even with the migrant populations, especially those who stand out as different, I'm not seeing too many benefits on their side either S.

Multiculturalism is like fire, the right amount can warm your house, too much risks burning it down. How do you measure the point where it starts becoming a fire hazard? Not long after you have ghettoisation kicking off when people who naturally want to be around "their own" build up in specific areas.

*the outlier here are Asian folks. They are clearly "different" to White Europeans, but you rarely see their dissatisfied young men kicking off and ending up in the news. Indeed on average they tend to track higher in success than the indigenous population. Almost certainly down to a deep cultural influence.

07-03-2019 11:06pm

One of the stupidest arguments I've ever had on boards was with the OP about this exact thing. He refuses to accept that historical natural flows are different to mass migration and the resulting problems which are now associated with the term.

Don't even bother arguing with someone who likens the Silk Road with what is happening in Europe now, simply because in his mind, they're the same word.

Gentleman Off The Pitch · 07-03-2019 11:11pm

I just cannot wait for us to be the same as everywhere else, how special that will be

Lefty Bicek · 07-03-2019 11:28pm

Wibbs wrote: »

*the outlier here are Asian folks. They are clearly "different" to White Europeans, but you rarely see their dissatisfied young men kicking off and ending up in the news. Indeed on average they tend to track higher in success than the indigenous population. Almost certainly down to a deep cultural influence.

Depends on what you mean here by 'Asian'.

I would say that eg these young Asians are kicking off, in a very organised and ideological way...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JzdRxmvUxA

I stand to be corrected, but I believe one of the dissatisfied young men in this clip came a cropper after a London terror attack. Good, if true.

To be honest, having lived around and experienced their sullen, frustrated, loud hysteria, they are truly a depressing representation of a type of 'Asian' youth.

riffmongous · 07-03-2019 11:30pm

Gentleman Off The Pitch wrote: »

I just cannot wait for us to be the same as everywhere else, how special that will be

It's american driven capitalist consumerism that is bringing that about, not 'multiculturalism'.

Sweetemotion · 07-03-2019 11:50pm

It just baffles me, how anyone can look at what is happening in other European countries since Merkle opened the borders and think. Sure it's grand.

archer22 · 08-03-2019 2:05am

Sweetemotion wrote: »

It just baffles me, how anyone can look at what is happening in other European countries since Merkle opened the borders and think. Sure it's grand.

Its was Merkel's policies that were the decisive factor in getting the Brexit camp over the line.

Strange how she is the person who bears the greatest responsibility for this debacle, but yet it is a fact that never gets mentioned anywhere!

Wibbs · 08-03-2019 9:54am

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Depends on what you mean here by 'Asian'.

East Asians. Vietnamese, Chinese, Cambodian etc. "Asian" in the UK is an odd description particular to that country where it means everyone east of Saudi Arabia.

stefanovich · 08-03-2019 9:59am

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Not going to happen for centuries if ever. Most Muslim countries have alcohol for minorities.

However of course societies will charge. A lot of people assume that if you add culture B to culture A you get culture A again. That or they use the idea of multi culturalism to promote secularism in hospitals etc. Which isn’t the same thing.

What’s likely to happen is that parts of society will have different morals, customs and conventions (and maybe laws) to the rest of us. Happening already. In Britain (in Birmingham) Muslim parents are protesting LGBT inclusive education. As is their right. I wonder what the op thinks.

https://twitter.com/tomhfh/status/1103718078980997121

This is a cognitive dissonance grenade.

seamus · 08-03-2019 11:05am

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Like it or not, Ireland will become a white minority eventually, as will many countries in western europe.

And over longer timescales the entire human race will likely be some form of tanned colour, with some minor variances here and there. Pure white or black people will be rare occurrences and will be highly desired as attractive.

But you're talking many generations. By the time Europe is no longer majority white, our great-great-great-great-grandkids will be long in their graves.

And it will happen not by immigration, but through simple intermarrying.

It's a complete Boogeyman for xenophobes.

Edenmoar · 08-03-2019 11:19am

There seems to be a cohort of people in Ireland, or at least a cohort of Journal commenters, that are absolutely dying for some kind of Muslim inspired terrorist attack to happen in Ireland, so they can get the pitchforks ready and say I told you so. The world is changing and globalisation means all sorts are going to live in Ireland. We can't have our cake and eat it, if we want at a booming multinational based economy we'll need low skilled workers from all over the world. Deal with it, life is too short to get your knickers in a twist over these things.

Auntie Semite · 08-03-2019 11:54am

Edenmoar wrote: »

There seems to be a cohort of people in Ireland, or at least a cohort of Journal commenters, that are absolutely dying for some kind of Muslim inspired terrorist attack to happen in Ireland, so they can get the pitchforks ready and say I told you so. The world is changing and globalisation means all sorts are going to live in Ireland. We can't have our cake and eat it, if we want at a booming multinational based economy we'll need low skilled workers from all over the world. Deal with it, life is too short to get your knickers in a twist over these things.

Some would say a 'Booming Multinational economy' means ever increasing rents, ever increasing house prices and ever increasing population density.
lower trust in society and communities, lower wages and a lower standard of living.

Auntie Semite · 08-03-2019 12:00pm

Interesting article on the (lack of) sustainability of Irelands current model.

https://t.co/2vsVOehA0w?amp=1

Quote
'FDI growth regime been made possible by inward migration and European integration, but given the unequal distribution of the economic benefits that this generates, it is unlikely to be politically, or electorally, sustainable'

Edenmoar · 08-03-2019 12:10pm

Auntie Semite wrote: »

Some would say a 'Booming Multinational economy' means ever increasing rents, ever increasing house prices and ever increasing population density.
lower trust in society and communities, lower wages and a lower standard of living.

That’s what happens in a country where tax cuts and welfare increases are all that matters to the electorate. We have a very dispersed population actually and that leads to a whole other discussion.

biko · 08-03-2019 12:21pm

sk8erboii wrote: »

Reactionary types beware: Multiculturalism is defined as the spread of people and ideas.

sk8erboii wrote: »

Mate thats literally what multiculturalism means.

Where did your hear that definition? It is incorrect.

Collins

Multiculturalism is a situation in which all the different cultural or racial groups in a society have equal rights and opportunities, and none is ignored or regarded as unimportant.

Merriam-Webster

: cultural pluralism or diversity (as within a society, an organization, or an educational institution) : a multicultural social state or a doctrine or policy that promotes or advocates such a state

It has nothing to do with spreading people and ideas. It just defines a society with different cultures, often religions.
Like Jews and Christians living in Syria, Saudi Arabia or Egypt.

topper75 · 08-03-2019 12:27pm

Tacklebox wrote: »

I seriously don't give a toss about multiculturalism, race, populism, alt-right, left.. liberalism, Fach ism, loony left... Alcoholism, socialism...transgender ism

I S M

I self me

Im far too busy collecting sea weed and listening to the waves crashing against the shore, choking herrings, surfing and cleaning engines than to be worrying about society and all that bollix ology

What good does it do to be discussing all that sociology it rots the mind....

That is because you are normal person.

Most people are normal but they dragged into discussing these abstract topics and isms because it represents common ground, a lowest common denominator. And so they waste time here on the internet.

Though it would probably be a lot more real and relevant, I can't discuss herrings with you. They don't feature in my life much.

biko · 08-03-2019 12:35pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Saudi_Arabia

Then
The first mention of Jews in the areas of modern-day Saudi Arabia dates back, by some accounts, to the time of the First Temple.
Immigration to the Arabian Peninsula began in earnest in the 2nd century CE, and by the 6th and 7th centuries there was a considerable Jewish population in Hejaz, mostly in and around Medina

Now
There has been virtually no Jewish activity in Saudi Arabia since the beginning of the 21st century. Jewish (as well as Christian and other non-Muslim) religious services are prohibited from being held on Saudi Arabian soil

Where is your outcry, hipsters?

topper75 · 08-03-2019 1:04pm

^^^^

Shall be along presently I imagine. All bothering some poor eurovision thread at the minute.

sk8erboii · 08-03-2019 1:52pm

biko wrote: »

Where did your hear that definition? It is incorrect.

Collins

Merriam-Webster

It has nothing to do with spreading people and ideas. It just defines a society with different cultures, often religions.
Like Jews and Christians living in Syria, Saudi Arabia or Egypt.

Incredibly misleading to use one instance of a merriam webster definition lad.

You know what you’re doing.

weldoninhio · 08-03-2019 2:52pm

Edenmoar wrote: »

There seems to be a cohort of people in Ireland, or at least a cohort of Journal commenters, that are absolutely dying for some kind of Muslim inspired terrorist attack to happen in Ireland, so they can get the pitchforks ready and say I told you so. The world is changing and globalisation means all sorts are going to live in Ireland. We can't have our cake and eat it, if we want at a booming multinational based economy we'll need low skilled workers from all over the world. Deal with it, life is too short to get your knickers in a twist over these things.

Yes, because the automisation of low skill jobs is never gonna happen. :rolleyes:

4068ac1elhodqr · 08-03-2019 2:58pm

Edenmoar wrote: »

... if we want at a booming multinational based economy we'll need low skilled workers from all over the world. Deal with it, life is too short to get your knickers in a twist over these things.

Pure nonsense. Many of these low-skilled will find themselves on the welfare scrapheap within the next decade. Who's gonna pay for their UBI then.

Edenmoar · 08-03-2019 3:05pm

Sienna Nervous Purse wrote: »

Pure nonsense. Many of these low-skilled will find themselves on the welfare scrapheap within the next decade. Who's gonna pay for their UBI then.

well where do we get our cleaners etc from in the meantime? I believe most people are inherently good anyway, the wasters in this country are Irish not foreign. Anyway where do people find the time to give a sh*t about where people are from? Life's too short amigos.

biko · 08-03-2019 3:06pm

sk8erboii wrote: »

Incredibly misleading to use one instance of a merriam webster definition lad. .

Hey, at least I lean on actual definitions

Maybe you quoted a source earlier in the thread that I missed? You use the word literally so must have some backup..

Wibbs · 08-03-2019 3:26pm

seamus wrote: »

And over longer timescales the entire human race will likely be some form of tanned colour, with some minor variances here and there. Pure white or black people will be rare occurrences and will be highly desired as attractive.

But you're talking many generations. By the time Europe is no longer majority white, our great-great-great-great-grandkids will be long in their graves.

And it will happen not by immigration, but through simple intermarrying.

It's a complete Boogeyman for xenophobes.

You regularly hear this simplistic nonsense of humanity becoming beige people trotted out. Worse, among some they seem to crave this. If diversity is to be championed why hope for it to fade away? Though as usual it's only "diversity" of non White people.

Worldwide, intermarriage between different populations is actually very low. Even in ex colonies with large groups of different faiths, ethnicities and "races" it's low. In the US among Whites it's under 10%, under 20% among Blacks. The vast majority of people in the world marry and have kids with those from a similar socioeconomic, religious and ethnic background.

Secondly, even if worldwide trends were towards that end it would take thousands of years, not centuries. Thousands of years where it's far more likely we'll be building new humans from scratch anyway. As a species we've been externalising our own evolution for at least half a million years and that process has sped up and we now are starting to have the tools to make such changes at a fundamental level and in a profound way.

Thirdly, if it were to come to pass and the majority of humanity were that homogenous, we'd be screwed as a species. Our success as a species is down to our rich diversity. We need the isolates, the different. If some horrible pathogen came along that was extremely virulent and deadly*, you would have a minority of people with the genetic diversity for resistance to it and humanity would survive. If we were all beige people it's far more likely we wouldn't.

*science would help us? It might, but if something like Bubonic Plague went rogue again today(and we're not sure why it went rogue before. It went rogue for the last time in the mid 19th century in Asia and killed tens of millions) our medical science might have the tools to fight it at first, but we would be swiftly overrun by the sheer practical scale of the problem and it could kill billions. And rapidly, as travel is a lot faster than it was during the Black Death. And back then in the days of the horse and walking it killed half the population of Europe in four years.

Hot take: Multiculturalism is good

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