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25-07-2018, 16:53   #1
quenching
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Deirim or Deareann me?

Can anyone advise on the following irregular verbs please:

Deirim or Deireann mé

Deirimid or Deireann muid

Dúramar or Dúirt muid

Or are both forms acceptable?

There are similar in all the irregular verbs but I presume they all follow similar “rules”
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25-07-2018, 17:50   #2
David Webb
 
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It depends what dialect you're learning. If the native speakers you're emulating say one thing, it's best to stick with it.

But deirimid and dúramar are not said in any part of the Gaeltacht. The correct forms are deirimíd and dúramair.

To resolve this for yourself, you need to decide what dialect you're learning.
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25-07-2018, 18:18   #3
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It depends what dialect you're learning. If the native speakers you're emulating say one thing, it's best to stick with it.

But deirimid and dúramar are not said in any part of the Gaeltacht. The correct forms are deirimíd and dúramair.

To resolve this for yourself, you need to decide what dialect you're learning.
Thanks David, I should have specified it’s 1st year Junior Cycle, Dublin if relevant, so I’m not sure which dialect they use! And I’m getting conflicting opinions from several sources.
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25-07-2018, 19:44   #4
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If it's "Standard Irish" - a made-up thing not spoken by native speakers - then you could look at https://www.teanglann.ie/en/gram/abair
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25-07-2018, 21:15   #5
quenching
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Originally Posted by David Webb View Post
If it's "Standard Irish" - a made-up thing not spoken by native speakers - then you could look at https://www.teanglann.ie/en/gram/abair
Thanks for that, it also has a handy phone app, as favoured by teenagers!
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25-07-2018, 22:19   #6
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Quenching, you can also listen to the pronunciation of most words on that site - and you can choose Munster, Connacht or Ulster pronunciation. You can get the audio pronunciations on your phone too.
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14-08-2018, 13:00   #7
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14-08-2018, 15:15   #8
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Originally Posted by quenching View Post
Can anyone advise on the following irregular verbs please:

Deirim or Deireann mé

Deirimid or Deireann muid

Dúramar or Dúirt muid

Or are both forms acceptable?

There are similar in all the irregular verbs but I presume they all follow similar “rules”
Quenching, you need to distuingish between An caighdeán oifigiúil and canúint (dialect). Canúint is ok when speaking but when writing you use the caighdeán oifigiúil. In the examples above Deirim,deirimid and dúramar are all caighdeán oifigiúil. The others are canúint.
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14-08-2018, 19:01   #9
David Webb
 
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Originally Posted by DickSwiveller Returns View Post
Quenching, you need to distuingish between An caighdeán oifigiúil and canúint (dialect). Canúint is ok when speaking but when writing you use the caighdeán oifigiúil. In the examples above Deirim,deirimid and dúramar are all caighdeán oifigiúil. The others are canúint.

Er... no. Why do you have to use the Caighdeán Oifigiúil when you are writing? It is just a made-up thing poorly grounded in an teanga bheó.


If there aren't any native speakers who use a form, why would you make it "standard"? Tell me which native speakers in which Gaelthacht you have heard saying dúramar. I believe that form may have been used in some areas of Co. Clare when Irish was vibrant there. But in general the CO is a highly unsatisfactory mish-mash that is not accepted by native speakers as being good Irish.


These are correct:


Present
deirim
deireann tú
deireann sé
deirimíd
deireann sibh
deirid siad


Past
duart
dúraís
duairt sé
dúramair
dúrúir
dúradar

Future
déarfad
déarfair
déarfaidh sé
déarfaimíd
déarfaibh sibh
déarfaid siad

Conditional
déarfainn
déarfá
déarfadh sé
déarfaimís
déarfadh sibh
déarfaidís


Past habitual
deirinn
deirthá
deireadh sé
deirimís
deireadh sibh
deiridís


We are getting into a situation where if the Irish government announced that "childs" was the plural of "child" in Irish English from now on, to make things simpler, DickSwiveller would claim that was the only correct form, despite the fact that all native speakers of English know the form to be "children". An teanga bheó is the only correct Irish, as in all languages the forms used by native speakers, which have centuries of history behind them, have to be correct.
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14-08-2018, 19:08   #10
DickSwiveller Returns
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Webb View Post
Er... no. Why do you have to use the Caighdeán Oifigiúil when you are writing? It is just a made-up thing poorly grounded in an teanga bheó.


If there aren't any native speakers who use a form, why would you make it "standard"? Tell me which native speakers in which Gaelthacht you have heard saying dúramar. I believe that form may have been used in some areas of Co. Clare when Irish was vibrant there. But in general the CO is a highly unsatisfactory mish-mash that is not accepted by native speakers as being good Irish.


These are correct:


Present
deirim
deireann tú
deireann sé
deirimíd
deireann sibh
deirid siad


Past
duart
dúraís
duairt sé
dúramair
dúrúir
dúradar

Future
déarfad
déarfair
déarfaidh sé
déarfaimíd
déarfaibh sibh
déarfaid siad

Conditional
déarfainn
déarfá
déarfadh sé
déarfaimís
déarfadh sibh
déarfaidís


Past habitual
deirinn
deirthá
deireadh sé
deirimís
deireadh sibh
deiridís


We are getting into a situation where if the Irish government announced that "childs" was the plural of "child" in Irish English from now on, to make things simpler, DickSwiveller would claim that was the only correct form, despite the fact that all native speakers of English know the form to be "children". An teanga bheó is the only correct Irish, as in all languages the forms used by native speakers, which have centuries of history behind them, have to be correct.
Native speakers are a category of their own and in the Gaeltachtaí you find the well of the Irish language (Tobar na Gaeilge). However, standard Irish is now taught to all school children throughout the country, so as to simplify the language for them. Remember, the vast majority of children learning Irish in the State do not live in the Gaeltacht and are therefore not listening to native speakers every day. It would be great if they were but in reality they are not. Therefore the caighdeán oifigiúil makes sense. It's a poor substitute for the pure language.

Last edited by DickSwiveller Returns; 14-08-2018 at 19:12.
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14-08-2018, 19:13   #11
byhookorbycrook
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Originally Posted by DickSwiveller Returns View Post
Native speakers are a category of their own and in the Gaeltachtaí you find the well of the Irish language (Tobar na Gaeilge). However, standard Irish is now taught to all school children throughout the country, so as to simplify the language for them. Remember, the vast majority of children learning Irish in the State do not live in the Gaeltacht and are therefore not listening to native speakers every day. It would be great if they were but in reality they are not. Therefore the caighdeán oifigiúil makes sense. It's a poor substitute for the real language.
Errm, no it's not. In primary , we use the teacher's canúint, so in ours we have Connacht, Munster (and within in that Cork and Kerry, no Ring peeps though) and Northern. In secondary, students have to be able to listen and respond to various canúint.
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14-08-2018, 19:14   #12
David Webb
 
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No, native speakers are not a category of their own. If you're learning French, you aim to learn it as French people speak it, right? There is no point learning Irish if you feel such contempt for native speakers of the language.

Níl an ceart agat, a DS. Ní catagóir fé leith na cainnteóirí dúchais! Dá mb'í an Fhrainncís a bheadh á foghlaim agat, do dhéanfá do dhícheall í dh'fhoghlaim go díreach mar a labhraid na Franncaigh í, nách ea? Má tá oiread san mímheas agat ar chainnteóirí dúchais na Gaelainne, cad é mar obair duit í dh'fhoghlaim in ao' chor?
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14-08-2018, 19:23   #13
DickSwiveller Returns
 
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Originally Posted by byhookorbycrook View Post
Errm, no it's not. In primary , we use the teacher's canúint, so in ours we have Connacht, Munster (and within in that Cork and Kerry, no Ring peeps though) and Northern. In secondary, students have to be able to listen and respond to various canúint.
In schools you have teachers with different canúints but the point I'm making is that when they're writing in Irish they are told to use an caighdeán oifigiúil. Dúras is the canúint, dúirt mé is the caighdeán. Children use the caighdeán when writing
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14-08-2018, 19:23   #14
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They are trying to standardise the writing of the language so as to make it simpler.

Mar sin, bíonn an caighdeán in úsáid sna scoileanna
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14-08-2018, 19:38   #15
David Webb
 
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Originally Posted by DickSwiveller Returns View Post
In schools you have teachers with different canúints but the point I'm making is that when they're writing in Irish they are told to use an caighdeán oifigiúil. Dúras is the canúint, dúirt mé is the caighdeán. Children use the caighdeán when writing

The teachers have no right to tell the children to use a caighdeán made up by learners in Dublin.
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