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Prisons & Sentencing in Ireland

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    #32
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Mark25 wrote: »
    Jnow I'm biased but disagree with that. Unless it has changed in the last few years there is only one "full Irish Breakfast" and that is on Christmas Day - the rest its a packet of cereal and toast or you buy something yourself from your grat. And everybody has TVs these days is it really that big of a deal? Some people are in their cells 22/23 hours a day and even normally just having a TV keeps things calmer and gives you something to do

    Its not that prisoners are sequestered, they must also be punished and it is done at great cost to the tax payer. I dont see the Irish Prison systems as that bad, you see Prison break or Orange is the New Black and their uniforms seem coarse and cold. that looks like real prison. I reckon I could time no problem in an Irish prison with no effect. I would crack like a little girl in one of the american prisons within 2 weeks. I reckon I suffer the physical part it is the mental part I wouldnt be able to hack with the no privacy or facility to develop.


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    #33
    irishproduce
    Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭irishproduce


    The Mighty Quinn wrote: »
    Just finished it, partly what prompted the thread as it got me thinking about prisons and applying it to an Irish context.



    Which is what I was asking in part, why don't we build a large prison, or a few of them? Is it purely financial, what are the costs associated with it? Is there any cost offset by not having the same thousand people in and out of courts all the time on repeat offence after offence?

    That second part is the issue. The legal profession lobbies heavily to ensure there is continued business at the expense of the rest of us.

    The legal profession lobbying on the idea of more suspended sentences, and succeeding in getting same implemented, is akin to a business celebrating winning a large order of future orders.


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    #34
    statesaver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭statesaver


    Isn't there 2 men in women's prisons ?


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    #35
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    arctictree wrote: »
    Why do you think the legal profession are arguing for more suspended sentences? Think about it.

    Is the entire legal profession and where are they arguing for this?


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    #36
    JustAThought
    Registered Users Posts: 5,323 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    joeguevara wrote: »
    Is the entire legal profession and where are they arguing for this?

    And criminals on this site bleeting for accommodation and jobs lined up for themselves when they are let out. Newsflash. Honest law abiding people do not want to share a room or office space with criminals. And let your family or friends put you up on their couches or bedrooms - why should you be rewarded with a house or appartment as a consequence of being caught and sentenced because of the crimes you committed. There are no ‘victimless’ crimes - the violence, threatening behaviour, burglaries, thefts, breakins - all have victims - rule one of prison shouod be to punish not reward and part of the sentence should be financial reparations to the victim - meaningful ones that stay with you until they are paid - not rewards with houses and handy jobs.

    As for those who think its only a few sentences - these were the times you were caught. And a few criminal convictions is 100% too many. There is plenty wring with the american system
    but there is plenty right too - up at dawn, no TV, work to pay your keep, and hard manual labour.

    The Japanese punish as part of their system too - mindless marching and obedience training. The self entitlement of criminals and their families has been facilitated too long in the country. Start with CAB auditing the families of criminals to ensure they are not living off the profils of crimes of their relations or children, and prosecute ans seize assets accordinhly. And stop the endless churn of free legal aid for recidivist criminals like this one here - if they hd to pay for laywers, their crimes and time instead of expecting houses and apartments and jobs when they emerge they
    might just begin to have the fundamentals
    of what is expected to live and contribute to society instead of begging, stealing and having the hand out and being a burden on taxpayers and the decent law abiding public who ultimately pay for everything for them. Scabs and crims. Lock them up and make them
    work and pay their debt to society - not run around expecting handouts, suspended sentences, concurrent sentences, houses and everything paid for or handed to them because they are convicted criminals. This just makes me sick. Margaret Ward and her husband all
    over. That elderly lady ‘just’ burgled never returned for fear to the house she hd worked for and earned and lived in her whole life. Yet now we have criminals blithely expecting houses and jobs to be handed to them in a black recession and no responsibilities or obligations on them. It makes me sick.


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    #37
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    JustAThought wrote: »
    And criminals on this site bleeting for accommodation and jobs lined up for themselves when they are let out. Newsflash. Honest law abiding people do not want to share a room or office space with criminals. And let your family or friends put you up on their couches or bedrooms - why should you be rewarded with a house or appartment as a consequence of being caught and sentenced because of the crimes you committed. There are no ‘victimless’ crimes - the violence, threatening behaviour, burglaries, thefts, breakins - all have victims - rule one of prison shouod be to punish not reward and part of the sentence should be financial reparations to the victim - meaningful ones that stay with you until they are paid - not rewards with houses and handy jobs.

    As for those who think its only a few sentences - these were the times you were caught. And a few criminal convictions is 100% too many. There is plenty wring with the american system
    but there is plenty right too - up at dawn, no TV, work to pay your keep, and hard manual labour.

    The Japanese punish as part of their system too - mindless marching and obedience training. The self entitlement of criminals and their families has been facilitated too long in the country. Start with CAB auditing the families of criminals to ensure they are not living off the profils of crimes of their relations or children, and prosecute ans seize assets accordinhly. And stop the endless churn of free legal aid for recidivist criminals like this one here - if they hd to pay for laywers, their crimes and time instead of expecting houses and apartments and jobs when they emerge they
    might just begin to have the fundamentals
    of what is expected to live and contribute to society instead of begging, stealing and having the hand out and being a burden on taxpayers and the decent law abiding public who ultimately pay for everything for them. Scabs and crims. Lock them up and make them
    work and pay their debt to society - not run around expecting handouts, suspended sentences, concurrent sentences, houses and everything paid for or handed to them because they are convicted criminals. This just makes me sick. Margaret Ward and her husband all
    over. That elderly lady ‘just’ burgled never returned for fear to the house she hd worked for and earned and lived in her whole life. Yet now we have criminals blithely expecting houses and jobs to be handed to them in a black recession and no responsibilities or obligations on them. It makes me sick.

    Exactly why would you expect a change in behaviour when you get all these goodies for bad behaviour? There are no consequences for bad behaviour, in fact I would go so far to say it is incentivised by all accounts.

    Free Legal Aid costs the tax payer. I am not against anyone being properly represented in court but when there is no consequence of Free Legal Aid. After the third time legal costs should be deducted from social welfare at €50 a week. Puts a whole lot of solicitors out of work. Why should anyone change their behaviour when tax payers put up the tax hikes.

    Change this and watch things change over night.


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    #38
    JustAThought
    Registered Users Posts: 5,323 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    I wouldn’t give them free legal aid a second or third time. I’d have them reviewed in advance of the court date on whatever cctc and witnesses were available and their sworn statements and I’d have them locked up & safely away from the law abiding public until they were convicted on the same evidence. No bail, no hanging around dossing and committing other crimes while waiting for trial. And I’d also have an increased weighting of sentence for every single conviction after the first. If you are going to act beyond the rules of society you are going to be put away from society to protect it and others from you. And no suspended sentences or concurrent sentences. Lock the criminals up and keep them locked up and punish them - they should be paying their victims and debt to society - not lawers.


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    #39
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    JustAThought wrote: »
    And criminals on this site bleeting for accommodation and jobs lined up for themselves when they are let out. Newsflash. Honest law abiding people do not want to share a room or office space with criminals. And let your family or friends put you up on their couches or bedrooms - why should you be rewarded with a house or appartment as a consequence of being caught and sentenced because of the crimes you committed. There are no ‘victimless’ crimes - the violence, threatening behaviour, burglaries, thefts, breakins - all have victims - rule one of prison shouod be to punish not reward and part of the sentence should be financial reparations to the victim - meaningful ones that stay with you until they are paid - not rewards with houses and handy jobs.

    As for those who think its only a few sentences - these were the times you were caught. And a few criminal convictions is 100% too many. There is plenty wring with the american system
    but there is plenty right too - up at dawn, no TV, work to pay your keep, and hard manual labour.

    The Japanese punish as part of their system too - mindless marching and obedience training. The self entitlement of criminals and their families has been facilitated too long in the country. Start with CAB auditing the families of criminals to ensure they are not living off the profils of crimes of their relations or children, and prosecute ans seize assets accordinhly. And stop the endless churn of free legal aid for recidivist criminals like this one here - if they hd to pay for laywers, their crimes and time instead of expecting houses and apartments and jobs when they emerge they
    might just begin to have the fundamentals
    of what is expected to live and contribute to society instead of begging, stealing and having the hand out and being a burden on taxpayers and the decent law abiding public who ultimately pay for everything for them. Scabs and crims. Lock them up and make them
    work and pay their debt to society - not run around expecting handouts, suspended sentences, concurrent sentences, houses and everything paid for or handed to them because they are convicted criminals. This just makes me sick. Margaret Ward and her husband all
    over. That elderly lady ‘just’ burgled never returned for fear to the house she hd worked for and earned and lived in her whole life. Yet now we have criminals blithely expecting houses and jobs to be handed to them in a black recession and no responsibilities or obligations on them. It makes me sick.

    Not the question asked. I wanted to know which part of the legal profession wants more suspended sentences.


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    #40
    Rodin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    Judicial system far too soft here.

    Even when you kill a cop you get an automatic 25% remission.
    He was also given a concurrent sentence for robbery (14years)... may as well have let the xxxx off


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    #41
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    JustAThought wrote: »
    I wouldn’t give them free legal aid a second or third time. I’d have them reviewed in advance of the court date on whatever cctc and witnesses were available and their sworn statements and I’d have them locked up & safely away from the law abiding public until they were convicted on the same evidence. No bail, no hanging around dossing and committing other crimes while waiting for trial. And I’d also have an increased weighting of sentence for every single conviction after the first. If you are going to act beyond the rules of society you are going to be put away from society to protect it and others from you. And no suspended sentences or concurrent sentences. Lock the criminals up and keep them locked up and punish them - they should be paying their victims and debt to society - not lawers.

    So you would decide whether someone is guilty or not before they go to court for a fair trial?


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    #42
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Paul Hudson wrote: »
    Gerald Barry was sentenced to three life sentences for murder and multiple rapes but these are running concurrently. He could technically be out in few years.

    How is that right?

    Life is the longest sentence anyone can get, how could he be given any more?


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    #43
    mynamejeff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭mynamejeff


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Life is the longest sentence anyone can get, how could he be given any more?

    think what people actually want is full life tariffs like in the uk where some one will never be considered for release .

    short of capital punishment that's the only way to ensure that they put no one else in danger


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    #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    mynamejeff wrote: »
    think what people actually want is full life tariffs like in the uk where some one will never be considered for release .

    short of capital punishment that's the only way to ensure that they put no one else in danger

    Well at the moment, they can give life, so that's it really
    Some prisoners do serve very lengthy life sentences, Evans and Shaw spring to mind. McArthur too.


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    #45
    jenneyk19
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 54 ✭✭jenneyk19


    you are seeing more drug crimes and drug muders

    to keep all the life sentances they need to build a new prison


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    #46
    mynamejeff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭mynamejeff


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Well at the moment, they can give life, so that's it really
    Some prisoners do serve very lengthy life sentences, Evans and Shaw spring to mind. McArthur too.

    yes but why not have that kind of sentencing for gangland normal scumbag murders .

    the likes of Arron Bready and anyone else convicted of murdering a garda should never be allowed to breath free air again , ditto any gang or feud related murder

    any killing for money or greed or where excessive violence was used


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    #47
    JustAThought
    Registered Users Posts: 5,323 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    mynamejeff wrote: »
    yes but why not have that kind of sentencing for gangland normal scumbag murders .

    the likes of Arron Bready and anyone else convicted of murdering a garda should never be allowed to breath free air again , ditto any gang or feud related murder

    any killing for money or greed or where excessive violence was used

    Excessive violence. So just a bit of terrorising using a gun and screaming and a threatening to kill is ok. Or is just a bit of shooting ok -
    like a leg or a hip - not really excessive -
    they still have the other leg, or one arm left. There are no victimless crimes and no ‘soft’ violence. There is also the very
    raal psychological damage that is done which can last ling after bullets have been removed.

    Life in Ireland does not mean what it does in Japan, or the US, or even the UK. And concurrent sentences and 20% off for behaving like a normal human should and further eligibility for early parole makes a mockery of the sentencing.

    As for people being locked up in advance of a trial - yes - I do agree with it. Technology, phone tracking, facial recognition software and CCTV on every corner has transformed what we can prove and know and how we can make judgements to protect the public. We need to be using those resources to protect society and the public - not protecting criminals.


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    #48
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    What a complex thread you have opened with.
    We have made massive investments into prisons and rehabilitation and with no return.
    Once we had one of the worlds smallest prison populations per capital.
    I am a firm believer that the criminal is predetermined by two factors his nature and his upbringing. His personal choices are of little consequences compared to his environment and nature. By the time he comes to the attention of the penal system there is little that can be done. He has made his life choices.
    I think the same money is better invested in after schools programs like supervised homework clubs, sports and arts.

    I also think that prison is too cushy. TV in every room, en suite, short sentences because we dont have the capacity. Prison in Ireland is like Butlins for thugs. Why wouldnt you want to do a 8 week stint to get away from the wife and have a few weeks to chill out and get some proper meals (most women dont know how to cook these days unlike our mothers).

    Society across the western world is plummeting in standards, nobody seems ashamed of a relative going to prison. Drug use is common place in every strand of society. There is very little respect for law enforcement, as a profession and as being an institution, myself included in light of Maurice McCabe (the honest were punished and the dishonest were promoted). We are heading for some very dangerous times, the markers are all laid out.

    Idiotic statement of the week.


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    #49
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    theguzman wrote: »
    There would be no need for extra prisons only buy a few metres of rope and some timber for a gallows, I don't care what circumstances were in play but anyone with 115 convictions etc should just be hung, no more repeat offending guaranteed and no €80k per prisoner per year cost either. We should be executing 500-1000 scumbags per year and the first that should be swung are the corrupt Judges and legal profession that have this country destroyed.

    Then you become the killers? Great!


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    #50
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    mynamejeff wrote: »
    think what people actually want is full life tariffs like in the uk where some one will never be considered for release .

    short of capital punishment that's the only way to ensure that they put no one else in danger

    Not sure if you understand what tariffs mean and how it impacts sentences in the UK. Firstly it was ruled that indeterminate sentences was not a breach of human rights. Tariffs such as 15, 20 or 25 years specifies minimum jail time but in fact specifies a time that could be less than a life sentence. Actual evidence shows that inmates with a tariff serve less time than those with an indeterminate life sentence.

    Also public perception of the length of time served for murder is drastically different to reality. Average time served for murder is 18 years as opposed to 7-8 that people think.

    Anyone who describes Irish prison as butlins is obviously reading articles in the british tabloids. Firstly we have no butlins and prisons like Mountjoy or port laois are hell holes. Inmates in Mountjoy have only recently stopped slopping out. United nations human rights reviews have described Irish prisons as inhuman.

    As for removing the innocent until proven guilty by using cctv and other tracking is beyond fcucuked up.


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    #51
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    JustAThought wrote: »
    Technology, phone tracking, facial recognition software and CCTV on every corner has transformed what we can prove and know and how we can make judgements to protect the public. We need to be using those resources to protect society and the public - not protecting criminals.

    And the place to prove those things is in a court of law.


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    #52
    joeguevara
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    JustAThought wrote: »
    Excessive violence. So just a bit of terrorising using a gun and screaming and a threatening to kill is ok. Or is just a bit of shooting ok -
    like a leg or a hip - not really excessive -
    they still have the other leg, or one arm left. There are no victimless crimes and no ‘soft’ violence. There is also the very
    raal psychological damage that is done which can last ling after bullets have been removed.

    Life in Ireland does not mean what it does in Japan, or the US, or even the UK. And concurrent sentences and 20% off for behaving like a normal human should and further eligibility for early parole makes a mockery of the sentencing.

    As for people being locked up in advance of a trial - yes - I do agree with it. Technology, phone tracking, facial recognition software and CCTV on every corner has transformed what we can prove and know and how we can make judgements to protect the public. We need to be using those resources to protect society and the public - not protecting criminals.

    Things like deep fake will mean CCTV will be less reliable. Cloning mobile phones will be similar.

    For example look at Sly and arnie in step brothers

    https://youtu.be/uXwmSFjlVc0


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    #53
    McCrack
    Registered Users Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭McCrack


    JustAThought wrote: »
    Excessive violence. So just a bit of terrorising using a gun and screaming and a threatening to kill is ok. Or is just a bit of shooting ok -
    like a leg or a hip - not really excessive -
    they still have the other leg, or one arm left. There are no victimless crimes and no ‘soft’ violence. There is also the very
    raal psychological damage that is done which can last ling after bullets have been removed.

    Life in Ireland does not mean what it does in Japan, or the US, or even the UK. And concurrent sentences and 20% off for behaving like a normal human should and further eligibility for early parole makes a mockery of the sentencing.

    As for people being locked up in advance of a trial - yes - I do agree with it. Technology, phone tracking, facial recognition software and CCTV on every corner has transformed what we can prove and know and how we can make judgements to protect the public. We need to be using those resources to protect society and the public - not protecting criminals.

    Imprison people before a trial in due course of law.. Lol.. Off to N Korea with you

    Of course we have remands here and you should look up the bail act 1997 to understand that

    Remission is a normal part of prison management and enhanced status can be earned for good behaviour and CRS schemes and also of course privileges in prison. Again necessary to encourage discipline and punish bad behaviour by not giving it

    But you knew all this I'm sure


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    #54
    JustAThought
    Registered Users Posts: 5,323 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    Cctv and phone records are part of modern life - putting your hand on a book and promising to tell the truth while lying through your teeth should be laid to waste alknv with scythes and abacuses.

    As for rights - the justice industry for criminals is so fortified by commercially motivated criminal lovers that the victim and their rights has been trampled into the ground and utterly ababdoned.

    Slopping out - and tens of thousands of compensation for criminals for offronts to their dignity? Tell that to the OAP’s raped in their homes or terrorised older
    people locked into their farms listening to criminal vermin breaking in to their livliehoods and farms knowing their only hope is to be left alone and live in terror. Japan has the right idea - punishment. As has many other countries where the law abiding citizen comes first and the paracites that want to feed off the criminals and criminals scum are put last.

    Too many people making their livliehoods off enabling criminal scum in this country.


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    #55
    kravmaga
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭kravmaga


    Thornton Hall was supposed to be a Super max high security prison built in NCD.

    Maybe similar to Belmarsh HMP in London. CAT A prisoners.

    What a waste of taxpayers money and the farmer done very well selling the land for that price.

    In my opinion Thornton Hall Prison should have been built.

    I remember seeing the actual mockups of the cells and landings when stored at the former IGB site in Ringsend in 2007/2008. Looked impressive.

    I.P.S. needs more capacity, most Dublin prisons are full/overcrowded.


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/thornton-hall-prison-site-that-cost-state-51m-offered-for-housing-1.3756763

    https://magill.ie/archive/scandals-thornton-hall

    https://www.iprt.ie/achievements/case-study-1-thornton-hall-super-prison/

    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0809/984029-thornton-hall/


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    #56
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    kravmaga wrote: »
    Thornton Hall was supposed to be a Super max high security prison built in NCD.

    Maybe similar to Belmarsh HMP in London. CAT A prisoners.

    What a waste of taxpayers money and the farmer done very well selling the land for that price.

    In my opinion Thornton Hall Prison should have been built.

    I remember seeing the actual mockups of the cells and landings when stored at the former IGB site in Ringsend in 2007/2008. Looked impressive.

    I.P.S. needs more capacity, most Dublin prisons are full/overcrowded.


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/thornton-hall-prison-site-that-cost-state-51m-offered-for-housing-1.3756763

    https://magill.ie/archive/scandals-thornton-hall

    https://www.iprt.ie/achievements/case-study-1-thornton-hall-super-prison/

    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0809/984029-thornton-hall/

    we need about 10,000 more prison spaces in Ireland. once we have somewhere to put them we can robustly enforce actual sentences.


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    #57
    skooterblue2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Idiotic statement of the week.

    Yes it is...... but it is also true. You are heated, fed, heated, watered, tuckshop, gym, hang out with the buddies, make more buddies. Do that course you always wanted to do (Health and Safety, Gym instructor) or just watch TV all day. Three Square meals. They have a better social life inside than I do outside. The only bad thing is when they leave Christy Dignam in to play.


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    #58
    Mark25
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭Mark25


    skooterblue2 wrote: »
    Yes it is...... but it is also true. You are heated, fed, heated, watered, tuckshop, gym, hang out with the buddies, make more buddies. Do that course you always wanted to do (Health and Safety, Gym instructor) or just watch TV all day. Three Square meals. They have a better social life inside than I do outside. The only bad thing is when they leave Christy Dignam in to play.

    I know people want prison to be harder but do you really think that?

    Do you really want there to be no heat or not get food?

    And isnt it better doing some type of course that might just lead to a job after getting out than just leaving prisoners stuck in their cell or hanging around all day?:


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    #59
    mynamejeff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭mynamejeff


    Mark25 wrote: »
    I know people want prison to be harder but do you really think that?

    Do you really want there to be no heat or not get food?

    And isnt it better doing some type of course that might just lead to a job after getting out than just leaving prisoners stuck in their cell or hanging around all day?:

    while rehabilitation is good the main purpose of prison is to isolate those who have shown that they cant live by the rules of society away from those who can.


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    #60
    mynamejeff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭mynamejeff


    https://www.sundayworld.com/crime/irish-crime/murderers-went-on-rampage-after-getting-day-release-from-prison-39702264.html?fbclid=IwAR1goJUIPqkTJloapGgq8v4wkZQZ3YTCrs3lmLsGGQfDxMZX8wAjtPyxjtY


    Prison at its most basic should be to protect us from these kind of creatures

    any one convicted of murder should never again see the light of day, that punishment would fit the crime


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    #61
    LuasSimon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭LuasSimon


    Most criminals know there is no prison space so unless you kill someone the judge will give you a suspended sentence .
    The biggest problem is not to start laughing when the free legal solicitor is telling some cock and bull story about how you’ve changed your ways and your really really sorry . Lol.


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