Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Should This be Reported?

Options
  • 18-10-2020 4:24pm
    #1
    Linoge
    Registered Users Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭


    I have a friend who works in Pharma in Cork City for the last 5 years. A few weeks ago she was threatened to be made redundant by her manager if she didnt sign a new contract for lower pay. Business was booming and the "redundancy" was totally bogus and being used for what appears to be a (quite unethical) negotiating tool to try to renegotiate her contract.

    She is an excellent performer and she called their bluff (in a tactful way) and they backed down completely giving all kinds of excuses.

    Thing is she now rightfully doesnt trust her manager and is wondering what she can do to safeguard herself. Should she report this incident in confidence to HR to get it on the record (with no action to be taken)? Or would this actually a serious incidence of once off bullying?

    To be clear, she is not trying to make waves or try to "get back/get justice" at any manager (he is way too senior in any case, HR wouldnt even call him into a room about it). And she still has to work with him at the end of the day. But clearly at the same time this manager has acted in the most unscrupulous way possible and you could absolutely expect more of the same in the future. Also he may not have appreciated her sticking up for herself - may look to punish her for it the next opportunity he gets down the road.

    Any thoughts on this? is it worth getting the incident on record? Thanks in advance


«1

Comments

  • Options
    #2
    salamiii
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭salamiii


    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/equality_in_work/bullying_in_the_workplace.html


  • Options
    #3
    cannotlogin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭cannotlogin


    I suspect her manager got the lower rate contract from HR!

    HR exists solely to protect the company not the employees and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.


  • Options
    #4
    XsApollo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭XsApollo


    What kind of role has she, he isn’t that senior if she has to work with Him everyday.
    If it is a big multi national and I wonder who up the management chain would agree or even tell someone to do something like that, sounds crazy.

    Smaller company sure.

    If it was a big multinational I would approach plant manager or even HR manager, or even beyond that.


  • Options
    #5
    daheff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,834 ✭✭✭daheff


    Report to HR

    Get her CV ready though as her manager seems to not want her and things will get tougher in the future.

    New job would be a better idea I think.


  • Options
    #6
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,676 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Linoge wrote: »
    Should she report this incident in confidence to HR to get it on the record (with no action to be taken)? Or would this actually a serious incidence of once off bullying?

    By definition, bullying cannot be a one-off thing.

    I would be very surprised if HR don't already know.

    And I would be job hunting, at least internally to get a different manager.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    Triangle
    Registered Users Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Triangle


    Linoge wrote: »
    I have a friend who works in Pharma in Cork City for the last 5 years. A few weeks ago she was threatened to be made redundant by her manager if she didnt sign a new contract for lower pay. Business was booming and the "redundancy" was totally bogus and being used for what appears to be a (quite unethical) negotiating tool to try to renegotiate her contract.

    She is an excellent performer and she called their bluff (in a tactful way) and they backed down completely giving all kinds of excuses.

    Thing is she now rightfully doesnt trust her manager and is wondering what she can do to safeguard herself. Should she report this incident in confidence to HR to get it on the record (with no action to be taken)? Or would this actually a serious incidence of once off bullying?

    To be clear, she is not trying to make waves or try to "get back/get justice" at any manager (he is way too senior in any case, HR wouldnt even call him into a room about it). And she still has to work with him at the end of the day. But clearly at the same time this manager has acted in the most unscrupulous way possible and you could absolutely expect more of the same in the future. Also he may not have appreciated her sticking up for herself - may look to punish her for it the next opportunity he gets down the road.

    Any thoughts on this? is it worth getting the incident on record? Thanks in advance

    She should definitely put in on record with HR and say she's not looking to progress a complaint. She just wants it noted.
    That way, if anything happens in future - it's on record.


  • Options
    #8
    Linoge
    Registered Users Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭Linoge


    Thanks for all the replies so far
    Triangle wrote: »
    She should definitely put in on record with HR and say she's not looking to progress a complaint. She just wants it noted.
    That way, if anything happens in future - it's on record.

    I personally loathe HR, but this is how I am currently leaning in my view. Just purely noted, not anything pursued (as effective as pissing into the ocean in any case). So for constructive dismissal or anything down the road there is an official record of the incident.

    For the bullying thing - I’m wondering does just because it’s a once off make a difference/ not constitute bullying? Surely if thats the case you could do anything to anyone so long as you only do it once?! The difference here is that bullying is actually a legal issue for the company as it comes under health and safety in the workplace. To be clear I know zero would come of what has happened, but it might slow the roll of the manager for any future devious sh1t he had planned.


  • Options
    #9
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    HR look after the company and the management, nobody else.


  • Options
    #10
    Linoge
    Registered Users Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭Linoge


    ReginaldSmythV wrote: »
    HR look after the company and the management, nobody else.

    Literally expecting zero from them. Less than zero. But a record of the event may make anyone think twice before putting the company at risk from a constructive dismissal suit. Protecting the company includes protecting the company from lawsuits caused by reckless managers.

    Literally that’s all it would be, record of the event. Shot off the bow.


  • Options
    #11
    Linoge
    Registered Users Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭Linoge


    OSI wrote: »
    This would have been done under instruction from and the guidance of HR, so I’m not sure what if anything constructive you’re expecting to achieve by complaining to them.

    Separately, HR weren’t aware that redundancy was offered - only told that contract was being renegotiated. Not that it makes much difference overall


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #12
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Linoge wrote: »
    Business was booming and the "redundancy" was totally bogus and being used for what appears to be a (quite unethical) negotiating tool to try to renegotiate her contract.

    How do you know this?

    Maybe the department has a reduced budget and the manager has been told to let staff go, but he is trying to save jobs by reducing salaries.

    Maybe the company is restructuring.

    You don't work at the company, nor are you privy to items senior management are grappling with, so I don't think you're in a position to say the redundancy was totally bogus.

    I worked for a company where our department was told to reduce the salary of our star employee. We knew this would cause him to leave. Instead my boss reduced her own salary and gave it to the star employee. He never knew about this.

    There is all sorts of crap that goes on at a management level which normal employees have no idea about.

    Regardless, it sounds like it worked out in the end. There is no point going to HR as they won't care and they were already in the loop about the new contract. They would have been the people who created the new contract.

    Repair the relationship with the manager and move on.


  • Options
    #13
    Linoge
    Registered Users Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭Linoge


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    How do you know this?

    Maybe the department has a reduced budget and the manager has been told to let staff go, but he is trying to save jobs by reducing salaries.

    Maybe the company is restructuring.

    You don't work at the company, nor are you privy to items senior management are grappling with, so I don't think you're in a position to say the redundancy was totally bogus.

    I worked for a company where our department was told to reduce the salary of our star employee. We knew this would cause him to leave. Instead my boss reduced her own salary and gave it to the star employee. He never knew about this.

    There is all sorts of crap that goes on at a management level which normal employees have no idea about.

    Regardless, it sounds like it worked out in the end. There is no point going to HR as they won't care and they were already in the loop about the new contract. They would have been the people who created the new contract.

    Repair the relationship with the manager and move on.

    There obviously is much much more to the story and this all happened over a number of weeks - I very much had to summarise it here.

    Not sure if I'm getting my point across in previous posts - I'm not expecting HR to do anything. HR 100% dont care, management dont care, HR wont say anything to management, zero will be done, HR only care about the company - I absolutely understand all this. Its not about HR and what they will and wont do, its literally only about recording the event.

    My thinking on it is reporting it would at least get an official record of the event that may be useful to her down the road because who knows what else this guy has in store. If HR decide that they do wish to inform the manager that a complaint was made, it may be just enough to prevent him from bullying her further down the road, or at least be more wary that she is not a completely clueless walkover.


  • Options
    #14
    Linoge
    Registered Users Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭Linoge


    I do appreciate all the replies here. Hope nobody feels that just because i disagree on certain points that I am disregarding all of the info, this is absolutely not true. Even having a discussion on this in general is immensely helpful. She is reading this thread and all the replies and will of course make up her own mind with the best course of action to take.

    For me just to reword because my above is just too long and waffly: The shortened question is - If she goes to HR and their policy allows her to make a good faith complaint in full confidendiality - could the complaint / record of this event help her with a potential constructive dismissal case down the road?


  • Options
    #15
    C3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 3,738 ✭✭✭C3PO


    I find it difficult to understand why a manager in a Pharma company would try and renegotiate an employees contract off his own bat without consultation with HR and more senior management .... why would he?


  • Options
    #16
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    C3PO wrote: »
    I find it difficult to understand why a manager in a Pharma company would try and renegotiate an employees contract off his own bat without consultation with HR and more senior management .... why would he?

    He wouldn't.

    There is a lot more to this story we aren't being told.


  • Options
    #17
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    He wouldn't.

    There is a lot more to this story we aren't being told.

    Here we go, supercompanyman has arrived to tell us that the employee is wrong and a liar no matter what. While all wrapping it up in how great they are.


  • Options
    #18
    Linoge
    Registered Users Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭Linoge


    C3PO wrote: »
    I find it difficult to understand why a manager in a Pharma company would try and renegotiate an employees contract off his own bat without consultation with HR and more senior management .... why would he?

    He didn’t do it off his own bat - senior management were told and HR was fully looped in. The issue with the negotiation was threatening her job with a redundancy that didn’t exist ie. if you don’t take less money you are gone from this organisation. This was proven to be bogus as she chose redundancy and then suddenly there were no changes to to her salary, contract - nothing, everything back to normal. And even if this negotiating tactic is fully sanctioned by SM, HR, everyone - that doesn’t mean that if there was a constructive dismissal case down the road that it would show the company if a good light.


  • Options
    #19
    Linoge
    Registered Users Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭Linoge


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    He wouldn't.

    There is a lot more to this story we aren't being told.

    I do believe I included all of this information in my previous posts and never stated he was doing it off his own bat. Even the redundancy tactic, although Hr didn’t seem to be in the know, it wouldn’t have made a blind bit of difference.

    I don’t think it makes for a productive conversation for me to lie or hide details - what would be the point in that? So just for the sake of this thread I would appreciate if what I was saying was just taken at face value. I’m not looking for praise, or to be told I’m right, or to bad mouth X company. All I want is the very best for my friend and help her make the best out of an incredibly difficult situation. I come from a cut throat industry myself and yet am still shocked by this tactic, especially during a pandemic.


  • Options
    #20
    Linoge
    Registered Users Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭Linoge


    C3PO wrote: »
    I find it difficult to understand why a manager in a Pharma company would try and renegotiate an employees contract off his own bat without consultation with HR and more senior management .... why would he?

    I'm spamming my own thread here but here:
    Linoge wrote: »
    Separately, HR weren’t aware that redundancy was offered - only told that contract was being renegotiated. Not that it makes much difference overall

    He is a Senior Manager himself:
    Linoge wrote: »
    To be clear, she is not trying to make waves or try to "get back/get justice" at any manager (he is way too senior in any case, HR wouldnt even call him into a room about it). e


  • Options
    #21
    Augme
    Registered Users Posts: 5,126 ✭✭✭Augme


    Linoge wrote: »
    To be clear, she is not trying to make waves or try to "get back/get justice" at any manager (he is way too senior in any case, HR wouldnt even call him into a room about it). And she still has to work with him at the end of the day. But clearly at the same time this manager has acted in the most unscrupulous way possible and you could absolutely expect more of the same in the future. Also he may not have appreciated her sticking up for herself - may look to punish her for it the next opportunity he gets down the road.

    Any thoughts on this? is it worth getting the incident on record? Thanks in advance


    This is the crux of it. The senior manager will know she went to HR so their already dubious relationship won't be helped.


    As for the second bolded piece - on the flip side you could argue she is now in a potentially strong position having this to hold over him. Also, as she has already stood up for herself it is possible the senior manager will be a bit more reluctant to throw his weight around.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #22
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    ReginaldSmythV wrote: »
    Here we go, supercompanyman has arrived to tell us that the employee is wrong and a liar no matter what. While all wrapping it up in how great they are.

    You are absolutely deluded if you think there isn't another side to this story.

    No manager makes a contract on his own and tries to force one of his staff members to sign it. This is basic stuff.


  • Options
    #23
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    cannotlogin wrote: »
    I suspect her manager got the lower rate contract from HR!

    HR exists solely to protect the company not the employees and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

    That’s not true. Yeah overall the company may be their overarching priority but enough people registered complaints about my manager that he went - for the good of the company sure, but we benefitted.

    I can never thank HR enough.


  • Options
    #24
    Keyzer
    Registered Users Posts: 4,331 ✭✭✭Keyzer


    cannotlogin wrote: »
    HR exists solely to protect the company not the employees and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

    Sooner everyone realises this the better - HR exist for the sole purpose of preventing the company in question from being sued.


  • Options
    #25
    Linoge
    Registered Users Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭Linoge


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    You are absolutely deluded if you think there isn't another side to this story.

    No manager makes a contract on his own and tries to force one of his staff members to sign it. This is basic stuff.

    This is not what happened. I never mentioned even 1 time that this is what had happened. I further clarified that this didn’t happen when it was mentioned and then even quoted posts where I literally said this didn’t happen.

    I don’t know what else to tell you. You are obviously not reading the thread and definitely did not read my last few responses.

    I appreciate this is a public forum and you can post what you like, but this is also an advise forum and I have asked some kind people of the internet for help - on a message board that I have been part of for over 15 years. If you are not willing to participate and post something helpful, it would be be better if you didn’t post / thread spoil at all.

    Like I said in my last post - there is zero to gain by me lying / hiding details here. What purpose does that serve? So you trying to investigate / uncover some sort of hidden truth / fight for the employer is a waste of time.

    You have provided zero advise or any kind of value to the thread except for accusing me of lying. I would sincerely appreciate if you could stop.

    My only question is - Is having a record of the event (I am thinking record it with HR, but maybe there is a better way to record what happened) going to be useful down the line?


  • Options
    #26
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Go back and read your original post:
    Linoge wrote:
    she was threatened to be made redundant by her manager if she didnt sign a new contract for lower pay
    Linoge wrote:
    she now rightfully doesnt trust her manager and is wondering what she can do to safeguard herself
    Linoge wrote:
    Should she report this incident in confidence to HR to get it on the record
    Linoge wrote:
    Or would this actually a serious incidence of once off bullying
    Linoge wrote:
    this manager has acted in the most unscrupulous way possible

    Look at the replies. Me and many others have correctly interpreted this to mean he did it on his own.

    You are correct that your recent replies clarified this. I did not read them.

    Linoge wrote:
    You have provided zero advise or any kind of value to the thread except for accusing me of lying.

    Ah. Now we're getting somewhere. I wonder are you applying this same dishonesty to your manager? Look how you're choosing to ignore this advice so you can make yourself out to the the victim:

    OMM 000 wrote:
    There is no point going to HR as they won't care and they were already in the loop about the new contract. They would have been the people who created the new contract.

    Repair the relationship with the manager and move on.

    And where did I accuse you of lying?

    I really want to hear the managers side of things now. You are a dishonest person.


  • Options
    #27
    belfe
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭belfe


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    You are absolutely deluded if you think there isn't another side to this story.

    No manager makes a contract on his own and tries to force one of his staff members to sign it. This is basic stuff.


    My guess?

    This comes directly from senior management, that manager was only the messenger.


  • Options
    #28
    It wasnt me123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,722 ✭✭✭It wasnt me123


    Triangle wrote: »
    She should definitely put in on record with HR and say she's not looking to progress a complaint. She just wants it noted.
    That way, if anything happens in future - it's on record.

    This. She should document what occurred - so he gave her x, she replied by y, he spoke and said z, she replied by zz etc

    If something blows up into the future, if she stays in the job, its hard to remember exactly who said what and when. If she does a report and then hand it into HR so they have a copy - by email and ask them to confirm their receipt = this way no-one can say I don't remember or I didn't get it.

    If she enjoys her job I would stay but if they want to move her on, part of the redundancy package that they get a really really good reference and a non disclosure on their side.


  • Options
    #29
    Linoge
    Registered Users Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭Linoge


    It wasnt me123 wrote: »
    This. She should document what occurred - so he gave her x, she replied by y, he spoke and said z, she replied by zz etc

    If something blows up into the future, if she stays in the job, its hard to remember exactly who said what and when. If she does a report and then hand it into HR so they have a copy - by email and ask them to confirm their receipt = this way no-one can say I don't remember or I didn't get it.

    If she enjoys her job I would stay but if they want to move her on, part of the redundancy package that they get a really really good reference and a non disclosure on their side.

    Cheers for taking the time to read and respond. No redundancy exists (or ever existed). It was purely a negotiating tactic - so she still has her job. She is looking for a new job, but her role is quite specialist so this will take some time + COVID-19 is not making it easy.

    She is actually looking to do exactly what you were saying above - get all the details of the meeting in an email, everything that she can remember etc. and then ask for a confidential meeting with HR. Request that she report something in confidence and then send on the email when confirmed. That way she has it all recorded should she need it down the road


  • Options
    #30
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,676 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Linoge wrote: »
    My only question is - Is having a record of the event (I am thinking record it with HR, but maybe there is a better way to record what happened) going to be useful down the line?

    No, I don't believe it will be useful in any way.

    If she goes to HR the only thing it proves to HR is that she's someone who goes to HR. She won't be telling them anything they don't already know.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #31
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    cannotlogin wrote: »
    I suspect her manager got the lower rate contract from HR!

    HR exists solely to protect the company not the employees and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

    There was a time in the 90's when hr were so protective of the employees that they were better than any union.

    Now it'd gone the other way, as corrupt and hostile as a bad government.

    They actually manipulate contracts so well that, you've no rights anymore.

    Thankfully I'm on the old contract where I work, but some people aren't as confident as me at standing up to people in high places.
    My aul lad had a senior job in the department of justice, and he thought me well as a kid and teenager on how to stand my ground with teachers, bosses in the likes of Quinzworth in the early 90s and duty managers in hotels on power trips etc as a 16 year old I was a right clever little rogue.

    Still the same although managers will never have a go at someone who's confident they'll only shaft who they think is the weakest link.

    If people here who are millenials or think that companies are way better managed and there's better working conditions now than there ever was, well you're deluded.

    I've watched a huge decline in fairness and equality over the years, although there was always corruption.
    It's worse now than there ever was.

    I think a well know retail company took the lead with zero hour contracts and gotten away with it, probably the same genius left that retail company and got a job with a huge recruitment agency, then the rot set in...

    Do any of ye realise that recruitment agencies you get jobs from are getting a nice chunk of your wages.

    And this is to supposedly relieve Human resources in said company you're slaving for.. So the recruitment company is pulling the woll over everyone's eyes.

    This is going to have to end, because the lay man and women are sick and tired of being peed on and told its raining..


Advertisement