3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

sparky42 · 01-09-2020 4:07pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

I see that the Appledore shipyard is re-opening. Bought out by the same outfit who bought Harland and Wolf. Time to get an order in for that new ship that is mooted!

Appledore had to do the fit out's in the mud for ships that potentially will be half the size of the EPV, and that's before you get into the issues that the yard hasn't done anything since P64.

Larbre34 · 01-09-2020 11:35pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

I see that the Appledore shipyard is re-opening. Bought out by the same outfit who bought Harland and Wolf. Time to get an order in for that new ship that is mooted!

Would you like them to make it up as they go along?

In all likelihood, even if the EPV got the go ahead for tenders tomorrow, it hasn't been specified and when it is, it will be based on some sort of existing multi-role or cargo / auxiliary type already on the market. In any case, it would be too big for Appledore to build and the Harland and Wolff interests will be busy with Type 31 building for the next 5 years.

Now that I think of it, what does everyone think of the chances of UK firms ever getting defence contracts from Ireland again if Brexit goes badly?

sparky42 · 01-09-2020 11:46pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Would you like them to make it up as they go along?

In all likelihood, even if the EPV got the go ahead for tenders tomorrow, it hasn't been specified and when it is, it will be based on some sort of existing multi-role or cargo / auxiliary type already on the market. In any case, it would be too big for Appledore to build and the Harland and Wolff interests will be busy with Type 31 building for the next 5 years.

Now that I think of it, what does everyone think of the chances of UK firms ever getting defence contracts from Ireland again if Brexit goes badly?

I'd agree that Appledore may be too small, though they did manage the Scott, which is 13K tons and 131m's long (how is another question): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Scott_(H131)

AS for H&W, has it been confirmed that they will actually be used and to what extent for the 31's?

As to your point regarding Brexit, it might well be in our interests to start looking at building a new relationship with an EU dockyard, and there are plenty that could sustain our needs.

roadmaster · 12-09-2020 8:54am

The navy seams to be in serious trouble at the moment

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40047446.html

roadmaster · 17-10-2020 8:04am

It appears coveney is doing something about the retention problem. Will this be enough?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40066464.html

17-10-2020 4:13pm

I've heard a few radio ads recently specifically for naval service recruits too.

Larbre34 · 19-10-2020 12:09am

Well if a second wave of thon plague puts the economy fully down the pisser, recruitment and retention may not be a problem.

sparky42 · 19-10-2020 12:53am

Larbre34 wrote: »

Well if a second wave of thon plague puts the economy fully down the pisser, recruitment and retention may not be a problem.

Apart from the fact that if the economy is down the pisser, then the Budget is ****ed, and we know that means the DF budget gets utterly ****ed...

roadmaster · 29-10-2020 11:18am

The Government must think the FOCN has magical powers for getting crews together. This is a quote from the Irish Times.

It is understood Naval Service Flag Officer, Commodore Michael Malone, has received an order from the Government that the number of available ships must not, under any circumstances, drop any further.

The full article is here

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/concern-as-staff-shortages-threaten-naval-service-missions-at-sea-1.4392719

mikeym · 30-10-2020 12:32am

Too little too late Fine Gael.

They should have done more for the navy years ago.

Theres no point in ranting because everyone knows how bad the place is.

Larbre34 · 30-10-2020 1:53am

It's a good job Malone came from the engineering branch, cos he has some chance at least of figuring out how to install a Wallace and Gromit type rig on the bridges of the PVs so they can be run off a Nintendo controller.

What an absolute joke the DoD are.

jonnybigwallet · 20-11-2020 9:23pm

Time to pay the lads a better wage and get a few more heavyweight ships now that Boris has announced a big influx of money into the RN. We could be fightin a Cod War post Brexit !

roadmaster · 21-11-2020 11:47am

The way things are they will have to park the rest of the fleet just to crew it

Widdensushi · 21-11-2020 12:27pm

Crazy, it smaller fishery patrol vessels similar to the UK, with half the crew ours require is what we should be looking at, borrowing hundreds of millions to boost someone's ego.

sparky42 · 21-11-2020 12:53pm

Widdensushi wrote: »

Crazy, it smaller fishery patrol vessels similar to the UK, with half the crew ours require is what we should be looking at, borrowing hundreds of millions to boost someone's ego.

No. The UK Rivers are already more capable for roughly the same tonnage, our OPV's have to be a minimum tonnage for West Coast operations, and we already have 6 OPV's capable of year round service (more than the UK's Rivers) with as small a crew as possible. The MRV/EPV is designed for out of area operations and has been that way since it was first floated coming up on 20 years ago.

Edit: I say 6 OPV's as the Peacocks need replacing as well.

And spare me the "borrowing millions" BS, it's still going to be an accounting error compared to the major spending departments.

sparky42 · 21-11-2020 12:54pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40086203.html

Finally!

Not really, I mean other than a firm number on what they are willing to spend (which I think is up from previous suggestions of 150 million), it's still "in planning", I'll only think we'll see movement when we see it going out to tender.

Heraldoffreeent · 21-11-2020 1:17pm

Thats a pretty rubbish article, look at the c295s, "in addition, the Department of Defence is also planning to purchase new C295 aircraft for the Air Corps.

The current CASAs can fly for nine hours, with a range of 1,500 nautical miles. The new aircraft will have a maximum of 12-hour flight capability and a 2,000 nautical mile range."

Planes are being built.

Widdensushi · 21-11-2020 7:15pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

Theirs actually have larger crews than ours, they just don't all go to sea together.

The jura class have a compliment of 35, it would be so much cheaper to run, maintain a couple of that size, you are left then wondering if the fishery patrols are covered what the current fleet offer other than high running costs , a couple of bigger vessels would then make sense to cover the other duties, foreign aid etc.

donvito99 · 21-11-2020 8:25pm

Widdensushi wrote: »

The jura class have a compliment of 35, it would be so much cheaper to run, maintain a couple of that size, you are left then wondering if the fishery patrols are covered what the current fleet offer other than high running costs , a couple of bigger vessels would then make sense to cover the other duties, foreign aid etc.

The P60s only have 9 more crew according to Wikipedia, hardly an enormous saving. And with 9 fewer crew, just how enduring and effective is an ancient class of OPV like the Jura going to be?

Widdensushi · 21-11-2020 8:30pm

donvito99 wrote: »

The P60s only have 9 more crew according to Wikipedia, hardly an enormous saving. And with 9 fewer crew, just how enduring and effective is an ancient class of OPV like the Jura going to be?

I thought they were sixty odd crew? I am not saying the jura class exactly, just that a smaller class of vessel would be suitable for most of their duties and offer better value.

donvito99 · 21-11-2020 9:31pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

Jura is a single role Fishery Protection vessel. It has no ability to get involved in anything requiring much more than shouting at someone with a loudhailer. The SFPA are not a navy, their staff are unarmed, even if their ships are mostly grey.

Irish Naval vessels have fishery protection as just one of their tasks. But they are Naval vessels first and foremost, and to operate as such they require a larger crew.

Dohvolle wrote: »

Value?
What duties exactly do the Naval service do that could be achieved with a small vessel like this?

What exactly can the P60s do that something like a Jura/Island Class with a 40mm can't do?

sparky42 · 21-11-2020 9:41pm

Widdensushi wrote: »

I thought they were sixty odd crew? I am not saying the jura class exactly, just that a smaller class of vessel would be suitable for most of their duties and offer better value.

Nope, not even Eithne has such a large crew I think, don’t even think they hit such numbers when they were deployed to the Med and had extra medical staff. The P60s are the size they are as the Navy has the position that anything smaller than that will face difficulties operating off the West Coast, and given that we had smaller hulls in operation until only a few years ago (the P20s) they should have a reasonable knowledge base to make that choice.

In reality the P60s are as cheap as you can reasonably get for OPV duties being vastly cheaper than the Rivers (for many reasons of course).

As I said leave aside the Peacocks as they need to be replaced with “something” we already have 6 OPVs that are fully designed for our waters and capable of whatever is needed, going smaller doesn’t make sense.

sparky42 · 21-11-2020 9:43pm

donvito99 wrote: »

What exactly can the P60s do that something like a Jura/Island Class with a 40mm can't do?

Do you think with such a small crew a Jura/Island class could do over the horizon inspections like the Indo recently showed one of the 60s doing off the South West coast and still have the needed operational crew?

ohnonotgmail · 21-11-2020 9:43pm

donvito99 wrote: »

What exactly can the P60s do that something like a Jura/Island Class with a 40mm can't do?

Dont the Juras have a top speed of only 16 knots?

Widdensushi · 21-11-2020 10:02pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

Firstly, a Jura doesn't have a 40mm, but that's not the point.
The P60 has 2 engine rooms, so that in the event of a breakdown,fire or other incident, the other engine room can continue powering the Vessel, the Jura if she went dead in the water, requires someone to come and rescue/tow her. Her machinery has surplus capacity and can if needed provide a shore power supply. Handy if assisting remote coastal communities after a Hurricane, either at home or overseas. She can purify her own water using an onboard RO system. This can provide potable water to shore supplies also. Unnecessary on the Jura.
The OPV also act as rescue vessels, they take over as on scene commander using the range of communications equipment aboard to coordinate with other ships and aircraft when dealing with a casualty at sea. Jura has no such facilities, doesn't need them, its not her job.
The P60 is designed to operate in the Western edges of the continental shelf, hence her size. She can handle the type of wave height normally seen around these parts. Jura does not, she is only designed to operate within the Scottish 12 mile limit.
The P60 can support troops abroad, with her deck space, RHIBs comms and armament, she can support troops making a hostile landing. This has been used in the past during the initial landing for Liberia when L.E. Niamh, supported ARW on land, providing comms links to DFHQ while the land hq was being prepared.
Its an armed vessel, designed from the outset as one. It has ammo stores built into the design to prevent such a dangerous cargo becoming a liability.
Intelligence gathering. A recent court case involving a large seizure of drugs at sea revealed the capabilities the NS have in this regard. They were able to plot, track and monitor a vessel of interest as it made its approach from an over the horizon aspect.
In short, the Jura is a 4 wheel drive SUV. You can stick a machine gun on the roof but that won't make it an armoured personnel carrier. The OPV is your APC at sea, and your tow truck, ambulance, police car, cctv, ESB repair crew, Fire Brigade, etc.

The first paragraph is all easily achieved in much smaller vessels, a 12 mile limit sounds ridiculous, 10 meter fishing vessels are operating 50/60 miles offshore, a fleet of 50m 500 odd gt tuna vessels are operating 200 miles off our west coast for months at a time,in the height of winter, getting refuelled and resupplied by a mothership while having the majority of the vessel taking up with freezing machinery and holds.

The latter part is why you would have larger class vessels not used for fisheries at all.

sparky42 · 21-11-2020 10:52pm

Widdensushi wrote: »

The first paragraph is all easily achieved in much smaller vessels, a 12 mile limit sounds ridiculous, 10 meter fishing vessels are operating 50/60 miles offshore, a fleet of 50m 500 odd gt tuna vessels are operating 200 miles off our west coast for months at a time,in the height of winter, getting refuelled and resupplied by a mothership while having the majority of the vessel taking up with freezing machinery and holds.

The latter part is why you would have larger class vessels not used for fisheries at all.

Those ships aren't sending boarding parties to border other ships, they aren't trying to maintain surveillance on other ships, and the crews conditions sure as hell aren't up to what you need to keep service personnel wanting to be in the service.

Larbre34 · 21-11-2020 11:15pm

The Examiner do cover Defence matters quite well, especially NS which of course they have a local interest in.

However, this is a nothing article really, it sounds just as vague as the basically identical article they wrote in October 2017 before the NS brass went to NZ for a gawk at Canterbury.

What I will say is that I don't like the sound of design by Committee. Yes, multi role vessels are not called that for no reason, but a fishery protection vessel, overseas support ship and troop transport, humanitarian aid ship, gardaí, customs, or the coastguard, vessel - sounds ridiculous.

I still think the Absalon class is the best overall solution, primarily an ocean going naval patrol vessel but with lots of empty, modular space and a crew of just 100. The description the Danish Navy used in their brief is basically exactly what we need.

sparky42 · 21-11-2020 11:49pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

The Examiner do cover Defence matters quite well, especially NS which of course they have a local interest in.

However, this is a nothing article really, it sounds just as vague as the basically identical article they wrote in October 2017 before the NS brass went to NZ for a gawk at Canterbury.

What I will say is that I don't like the sound of design by Committee. Yes, multi role vessels are not called that for no reason, but a fishery protection vessel, overseas support ship and troop transport, humanitarian aid ship, gardaí, customs, or the coastguard, vessel - sounds ridiculous.

I still think the Absalon class is the best overall solution, primarily an ocean going naval patrol vessel but with lots of empty, modular space and a crew of just 100. The description the Danish Navy used in their brief is basically exactly what we need.

Yeah it does seem to be a "holding piece" from the PR department just to keep something going. But yeah it has the potential to go wrong I mean the Canterbury shows how things can go wrong. Absalon would have been perfect back in '08 when it was romoured to be the preferred option. Now though?

Larbre34 · 22-11-2020 12:14am

sparky42 wrote: »

Now though?

Has the brief changed or that design been bettered in your opinion?

sparky42 · 22-11-2020 12:38am

Larbre34 wrote: »

Has the brief changed or that design been bettered in your opinion?

While the Air defence variant has seen more recent builds between being the basis of the Type 31's and the Indonesian buy, the Absalon class hasn't been built since then. We don't really have any idea as to what the costs will be even with a "FFBNW" layout. It depends entirely as to what the NS "weights" the capabilities for, I mean hell that Vard design offers plenty more "transport" capabilities, though lacks the limited air defence of the Frigate.

Given we haven't seen anything other than "it's in planning" since the RFI went dormant back in '08, we really can't say for certain what is being looked for, given how things have changed since then.

Larbre34 · 22-11-2020 12:41am

Agreed.

But I'd guess, unfortunately, that air defence capability is nowhere on our noble DoDs list of priorities.

Markcheese · 22-11-2020 12:52am

If the DOD went with fully with the absalon idea ,they could go with the same stan-flex system ... So even if they didn't spec much in the way of weaponry at first , the ship is designed to have different systems fitted in
just a day or two .. ( I know you need to buy then first and then train with them ,)

What do ye reckon the roles of the ship would be ? I mean yes technically it can do fishery patrols , but there are 6 opvs that can do that easily ... So that's not really going to be high on the list of priorities ..

Markcheese · 22-11-2020 12:52am

If the DOD went with fully with the absalon idea ,they could go with the same stan-flex system ... So even if they didn't spec much in the way of weaponry at first , the ship is designed to have different systems fitted in
just a day or two .. ( I know you need to buy then first and then train with them ,)

What do ye reckon the roles of the ship would be ? I mean yes technically it can do fishery patrols , but there are 6 opvs that can do that easily ... So that's not really going to be high on the list of priorities ..

sparky42 · 22-11-2020 12:52am

Larbre34 wrote: »

Agreed.

But I'd guess, unfortunately, that air defence capability is nowhere on our noble DoDs list of priorities.

Indeed, but there's no chance of a defence budget that would cover such capabilities, whatever we get is going to be a "compromise" with the best will in the world. I mean Absolon has more limited Sea Lift but more defensive capabilities, but would the larger sealift/Humanitarian Assistance operations.

We're still in the "spitballing" mode until we see more out of Defence as to what they are looking for.

sparky42 · 22-11-2020 1:00am

Markcheese wrote: »

If the DOD went with fully with the absalon idea ,they could go with the same stan-flex system ... So even if they didn't spec much in the way of weaponry at first , the ship is designed to have different systems fitted in
just a day or two .. ( I know you need to buy then first and then train with them ,)

What do ye reckon the roles of the ship would be ? I mean yes technically it can do fishery patrols , but there are 6 opvs that can do that easily ... So that's not really going to be high on the list of priorities ..

Yeah Stan-Flex can cover a lot, but for that to work, off the bat you have to get DODto build the CMS backbone, even if you limit even the Radar fit out, so you still get a high "sticker" price out of the dock, no way you get it for the rumoured 200 million they are willing to spend.

As for roles, I mean depending on what we actually get, given they are talking about 5 years from now...? What will the Med be like by then given the increased tensions in the East between Turkey and EU members? Will UNFIL naval operations still be happening? Mali? Atalanta? It's hard to say between how long we are talking about and not even knowing what we are actually buying...

Markcheese · 22-11-2020 1:26am

I suppose it's guess work , it's supposed to be a multirole vessel after all , bit of a bugger if you say ,we never thought of that .. and it'll probably have a 30 year working life ..
I suppose it'll have to have some level of ro,/ro , plus a hanger and flight deck ( but for what size helicopter or helicopters ) , an ability to load or unload some items by an onboard crane ,
Some type of landing craft , not just ribs on board .
Accomadation, and hospital capabilities ...
A decent range / endurance if it needs to head off to west africa ,
Sea keeping for the same reasons , rolling around in a car ferry wouldn't be fun ,
But too much draft and it'd be limited in which ports it could dock at , at home and abroad ...
Probably could do with a decent bollard pull too ,

sparky42 · 22-11-2020 1:35am

Markcheese wrote: »

I suppose it's guess work , it's supposed to be a multirole vessel after all , bit of a bugger if you say ,we never thought of that .. and it'll probably have a 30 year working life ..
I suppose it'll have to have some level of ro,/ro , plus a hanger and flight deck ( but for what size helicopter or helicopters ) , an ability to load or unload some items by an onboard crane ,
Some type of landing craft , not just ribs on board .
Accomadation, and hospital capabilities ...
A decent range / endurance if it needs to head off to west africa ,
Sea keeping for the same reasons , rolling around in a car ferry wouldn't be fun ,
But too much draft and it'd be limited in which ports it could dock at , at home and abroad ...
Probably could do with a decent bollard pull too ,

Yeah, like you say trying to put all that into one ship is going to end up "complicated", how that plays and how well it works is going to be an "experience".

Markcheese · 22-11-2020 2:35am

sparky42 wrote: »

Yeah, like you say trying to put all that into one ship is going to end up "complicated", how that plays and how well it works is going to be an "experience".

Ah well , they've probably still hot decades to plan it ..

sparky42 · 22-11-2020 3:10am

Markcheese wrote: »

Ah well , they've probably still hot decades to plan it ..

They have, but think about it, when this started the NS was still by Government Policy not going to deploy outside Irish Waters regularly, nobody in the 00's would have imagined operations in the Med for months on end within 5 years.

Atlantic Dawn · 22-11-2020 3:17am

In the last 10 years in this country the only task I would have used such a new vessel for was recovery of Rescue 116, we had Irish Lights vessel Granuaile available for this, at cost.

sparky42 · 22-11-2020 3:35am

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

In the last 10 years in this country the only task I would have used such a new vessel for was recovery of Rescue 116, we had Irish Lights vessel Granuaile available for this, at cost.

It's not intended to be used only in this country... Just in case you missed that.

Larbre34 · 22-11-2020 6:38pm

There are a few absolute basics that I think this vessel *should* be equipped for. Whether it will or not depends on having voices of reason in the right jobs over the next while.

1) Full ocean going blue water naval architecture. No Ro-Pax ferries painted grey, thanks.

2) Medium lift naval helicopter operations. Either one or two rescue/sealift/patrol aircraft embarked. The fact we are a maritime nation with zero air/sea presence is beyond laughable and inexcusable. I don't want any fobbing off about being "enabled" for heli-ops, I want aircraft procured and naval pilots trained in paralle with the ship build, to hit the ground running, so to speak.

3) A full suite of anti air and anti ship vertical launched missles and torpedoes to be specced.
This vessel should be able to be anchored off any of our major cities or installations as a mobile air and sea defence platform and likewise for the protection of our overseas deployments into hostile area under UN mandate.

punchdrunk · 22-11-2020 7:17pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

There are a few absolute basics that I think this vessel *should* be equipped for. Whether it will or not depends on having voices of reason in the right jobs over the next while.

1) Full ocean going blue water naval architecture. No Ro-Pax ferries painted grey, thanks.

2) Medium lift naval helicopter operations. Either one or two rescue/sealift/patrol aircraft embarked. The fact we are a maritime nation with zero air/sea presence is beyond laughable and inexcusable. I don't want any fobbing off about being "enabled" for heli-ops, I want aircraft procured and naval pilots trained in paralle with the ship build, to hit the ground running, so to speak.

3) A full suite of anti air and anti ship vertical launched missles and torpedoes to be specced.
This vessel should be able to be anchored off any of our major cities or installations as a mobile air and sea defence platform and likewise for the protection of our overseas deployments into hostile area under UN mandate.

1: maybe

2: not a snowballs chance of that

3: half the chance of no 2 again!

We’ll get slightly bigger than Eithne, no choppers,
A bit of space down the back for a few containers for diving etc and if we’re really good we might get a drone on it.

Markcheese · 22-11-2020 7:28pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

Nice idea, but try selling that in Dail eireann against an opposition of peacniks and former terrorists and their supporters.

Yup , and to be honest a floating anti-air , anti submarine ,anti - ship missile platform isn't really where Ireland is as a nation ..

As sparky said earlier even putting in the basic sensor architecture ,to then upgrade to fancy weapons systems later would blow the budget sky high ,
Still if we expect a vessel like this to be able to operate in conflict hotspots , then it needs to be able to defend itself somewhat ..

Larbre34 · 22-11-2020 11:55pm

Indeed.

Its either a Naval ship or its a fleet auxiliary / hospital ship though. Might as well just get a cargo vessel if these other points are even going to be considered.

mikeym · 23-11-2020 12:04am

IMO we dont need a Canterbury type ship.

Widdensushi · 23-11-2020 12:08am

Larbre34 wrote: »

There are a few absolute basics that I think this vessel *should* be equipped for. Whether it will or not depends on having voices of reason in the right jobs over the next while.

1) Full ocean going blue water naval architecture. No Ro-Pax ferries painted grey, thanks.

2) Medium lift naval helicopter operations. Either one or two rescue/sealift/patrol aircraft embarked. The fact we are a maritime nation with zero air/sea presence is beyond laughable and inexcusable. I don't want any fobbing off about being "enabled" for heli-ops, I want aircraft procured and naval pilots trained in paralle with the ship build, to hit the ground running, so to speak.

3) A full suite of anti air and anti ship vertical launched missles and torpedoes to be specced.
This vessel should be able to be anchored off any of our major cities or installations as a mobile air and sea defence platform and likewise for the protection of our overseas deployments into hostile area under UN mandate.

I presume this is a wind up, have you costings for this type of vessel? Where will the staff come from? I presume they would mostly have to be trained abroad for the equipment you are talking about? Is there a fantasy forum that would be more suited for this, or maybe a discussion on the American navy where this vessel would be more suitable??

sparky42 · 23-11-2020 12:14am

Widdensushi wrote: »

I presume this is a wind up, have you costings for this type of vessel? Where will the staff come from? I presume they would mostly have to be trained abroad for the equipment you are talking about? Is there a fantasy forum that would be more suited for this, or maybe a discussion on the American navy where this vessel would be more suitable??

You know that what he's laying out is a basic naval warship that is in service with any number of nations of the same population/economy as us, the idea that something like this is "for the American Navy" is ignoring all of the European Navies. Hell even New Zealand has a couple of Frigates along with the Canterbury...

sparky42 · 23-11-2020 12:22am

mikeym wrote: »

IMO we dont need a Canterbury type ship.

Again I suppose it comes down to where priorities have been made for her, is she meant to be able to deploy and support Irish forces on EU/UN missions then she's capable of transport but would need some else protecting her potentially depending on the situation.

On the otherhand something like the Absalon could have some self protection depending on how it's fitted out, but has less carrying/self deploying capability.

Widdensushi · 23-11-2020 12:34am

sparky42 wrote: »

You know that what he's laying out is a basic naval warship that is in service with any number of nations of the same population/economy as us, the idea that something like this is "for the American Navy" is ignoring all of the European Navies. Hell even New Zealand has a couple of Frigates along with the Canterbury...

We are basically a neutral country, warfare is not our business, if it was the eu would take care of it, fishery protection, a bit of customs, drugs etc, the odd courtesy visit and the odd humanitarian act to make our people feel better is all that is required.

3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

Comments