Petitioning for online access to Irish Genealogy

DLohan · 18-07-2010 8:27am #1

Following the success of the online publication of the 1901 Census the need to improve access to Irish Genealogy has never been more apparent.

The Friends of Ireland Campaign is reaching out to all of Ireland's friends across the globe. The campaign is petitioning the Irish Government to improve online access to Irish Genealogy.

The campaign calls upon the Irish Government and Irish National Institutions to provide a single web portal capable of delivering not only details of Births, Deaths & Marriages but also digitised copies of photographs, maps, letters, newspapers, pamphlets, prints, music & voice recordings, video recordings, content on people / places / events / organisations, along with associated notes & full source information. The campaign further calls upon the Irish Government to provide the means by which the Friends of Ireland & the People of Ireland can share their Story of Ireland.

To express your support for this campaign please sign the petition at http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/foicampaign/

Further information is available from the campaign website at http://www.friendsofirelandcampaign.com/
Please consider forwarding this information to friends, family and colleagues who may have an interest in supporting this cause.

mathepac · 18-07-2010 9:07am

DLohan wrote: »

Following the success of the online publication of the 1901 Census ...

and the 1911 Census with access to digital copies of both sets of source materials as well as the ability to provide feedback and to highlight omissions or corrections.

BTW the links in your post don't work.

DLohan · 18-07-2010 9:15am

mathepac wrote: »

and the 1911 Census with access to digital copies of both sets of source materials as well as the ability to provide feedback and to highlight omissions or corrections.

What is the intention here?

mathepac wrote: »

BTW the links in your post don't work.

Thanks, was to do with the URLs post in Boards. Have amended.

P. Breathnach · 18-07-2010 11:44am

Let's be sensible here.

The census project has been fantastically good. The Irish Genealogy website giving us abstracts from church records is not bad. The availability on the LDS of copies of the indices to official records is very helpful to researchers. Overall, that is a lot of official support to researchers, particularly in a country where our archives are very fragmented and limited..

What the campaign seeks is unrealistically extensive and expensive.

DLohan · 18-07-2010 12:24pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Let's be sensible here.

The census project has been fantastically good. The Irish Genealogy website giving us abstracts from church records is not bad. The availability on the LDS of copies of the indices to official records is very helpful to researchers. Overall, that is a lot of official support to researchers, particularly in a country where our archives are very fragmented and limited..

What the campaign seeks is unrealistically extensive and expensive.

And you've done the market research? I have!

And you have a vision of how it could be delivered? I have!

Two operations from small things................Microsoft & Apple.

In fact, I don't expect ANY money from the Irish State at all.

mathepac · 18-07-2010 12:29pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

... The census project has been fantastically good. The Irish Genealogy website giving us abstracts from church records is not bad. The availability on the LDS of copies of the indices to official records is very helpful to researchers. ...

+1. Thanks you anticipated my response to the question posed by OP above.

I'm merely an amateur looking up my own family's details but in terms of assistance, the current facilities are very useful and helpful.

pinkypinky · 18-07-2010 1:09pm

While your idea is worthy, and I'd love to see this sort of thing happen, the money isn't there. I'm the first to admit that better planning needs to happen but it's all pie in the sky right now. I feel the same way about the petition to give early access to the 1926 census. How could the State justify spending money on long dead people when there are hoards of alive people unemployed, our health system is a joke and the economy is in the toilet.

The facilities have improved massively in the last few years. I think that the State should move towards a subscription model now that the money is running out. Not pay per view like the Irish Roots site but something like Origins.net where you pay an annual fee to see all their records whenever you want; they also have smaller fees for short-term access. I think let the commercial companies take a stake in doing the legwork for a share of the profit.

As much as I enjoy genealogy and helping people find their ancestors, I can't condone spending money on something like this when there are massive problems in the country.

DLohan · 18-07-2010 1:51pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

While your idea is worthy, and I'd love to see this sort of thing happen, the money isn't there. I'm the first to admit that better planning needs to happen but it's all pie in the sky right now. I feel the same way about the petition to give early access to the 1926 census. How could the State justify spending money on long dead people when there are hoards of alive people unemployed, our health system is a joke and the economy is in the toilet.

The facilities have improved massively in the last few years. I think that the State should move towards a subscription model now that the money is running out. Not pay per view like the Irish Roots site but something like Origins.net where you pay an annual fee to see all their records whenever you want; they also have smaller fees for short-term access. I think let the commercial companies take a stake in doing the legwork for a share of the profit.

As much as I enjoy genealogy and helping people find their ancestors, I can't condone spending money on something like this when there are massive problems in the country.

Thanks for your comments. It would seem that there is an impression that this would need to be State funded. It would not. I shall update the petition and the website to reflect these.

The project can only proceed if it is financially viable. If such viability exists then there will be no problem in getting funding. That does not mean that the State needs to provide any money.

Right now, I have done a limited release of the campaign with the intention of gathering comments and even criticisms. This has been remarkably useful. Money would seem to be the largest concern. I shall make appropriate changes.

Thanks for your help and comments!

ejmaztec · 18-07-2010 6:14pm

DLohan wrote: »

Thanks for your comments. It would seem that there is an impression that this would need to be State funded. It would not. I shall update the petition and the website to reflect these.

The project can only proceed if it is financially viable. If such viability exists then there will be no problem in getting funding. That does not mean that the State needs to provide any money.

Right now, I have done a limited release of the campaign with the intention of gathering comments and even criticisms. This has been remarkably useful. Money would seem to be the largest concern. I shall make appropriate changes.

Thanks for your help and comments!

Who's going to pay for it?

pinkypinky · 18-07-2010 11:22pm

DLohan wrote: »

It would seem that there is an impression that this would need to be State funded.

I can't see the State allowing this sort of project if they're not involved. They've shown a marked reluctance to allow organisations like Ancestry or even Eneclann access to their archives for commercial means.

the_syco · 18-07-2010 11:40pm

DLohan wrote: »

The project can only proceed if it is financially viable.

Take this the nicest way possible: I hope the state refuses your commercial enterprise.

DLohan · 19-07-2010 8:33am

the_syco wrote: »

Take this the nicest way possible: I hope the state refuses your commercial enterprise.

I can't understand why anyone would wish ill a project, that would benefit the People of Ireland, especially in these times when 120,000 young people are about to leave our shores.

It beggers belief!

the_syco · 19-07-2010 8:54am

DLohan wrote: »

I can't understand why anyone would wish ill a project, that would benefit the People of Ireland, especially in these times when 120,000 young people are about to leave our shores.

The project, I wish well, but someone hoping to make lots of money from it, bah. You do not sound like a charity doing this for the good of the people, but more like a business man doing it for the good of his wallet.

shanew · 19-07-2010 10:19am

DLohan wrote: »

And you've done the market research? I have!
...
In fact, I don't expect ANY money from the Irish State at all....

The details on the website make it sound like you want the government to provide a website and database to give access to records, which would have major costs (scanning, transcriptions, database and webservers etc) :

'The Friends of Ireland Campaign is petitioning the Irish Government and Irish National Institutions to ....Provide a single web portal capable of delivering, from their holdings....'

Shane

DLohan · 19-07-2010 10:21pm

Hi folks,

These are very interesting views. What fascinates me is that even in these few posts there is opposition regardless of the manner in which the service is delivered. Some oppose the notion that the State would contribute, others that other sources would.

Is there really a belief that if we don't reach out to the Irish Diaspora, if we don't create jobs, if we don't promote Ireland, if we don't collect taxes, if we don't invest........... that somehow it will be "cheaper"?

Please read all the posts again and imagine you really wanted to do something for your country, and you had researched the matter intensively and had a belief in what you found. Now reading again the previous posts look at what the criteria require and ask if any business or successful partnership has ever been set up that was capable of meeting most of them.

pinkypinky · 19-07-2010 11:17pm

Ok, taking on board what you said - it still sounds like a business and doesn't have the ring of authenticity that you need. Apart from your market research and the petition, what other ways are you seeking support for this endeavour? Have you approached politicians or venture capitalists? What about organisations already in the "business" like family history centres or the Catholic church? All these organisations would need co-opting to create what you want. I'm not trying to come across as hostile but I just don't think there'll be an appetite for this from the State. Their "certificate of Irishness" has great potential but I haven't seen anything about the criteria that will be set to achieve it. EG, will you have to prove an ancestor from Ireland, and what will be proof of that? Or will it just be a case that you say you're Irish and you get it.

shanew · 20-07-2010 8:16am

There's no opposition to having more records on line - it's just that your post is very vague on details on how you are proposing that this is to be achieved.

1. Is this a commercial enterprise or to be in state control ?

2. You mention that you dont expect any money from the state - so who would pay for the digitization, indexing of records, provision of webservers etc.

I believe that promoting Ireland using our heritage and family history is a vital element in tourism and has a great potential for job creation, but I think it would be better to focus on specific realistic projects.

Shane

DLohan · 20-07-2010 9:11am

shanew wrote: »

There's no opposition to having more records on line - it's just that your post is very vague on details on how you are proposing that this is to be achieved.

1. Is this a commercial enterprise or to be in state control ?

2. You mention that you dont expect any money from the state - so who would pay for the digitization, indexing of records, provision of webservers etc.

I believe that promoting Ireland using our heritage and family history is a vital element in tourism and has a great potential for job creation, but I think it would be better to focus on specific realistic projects.

Shane

Shane,

Fair enough.

You are correct when you show that finance will at some point be important. And in reality there are only two options - the State can fund (and maximise the benefit) the project or the State can choose not to, in which case finance would have to be sought in other quarters.

Both options are possible and the burden of proof would be largely the same in both instances, in other words to prove that the investment would be worthwhile. Both options are also largely academic until such time as the State would agree to support the project by providing access (not finance) to materials held by Irish Institutions - hence that is why the matter of finance is not raised in this campaign - it is seen as largely academic until access to content is furnished.

I do believe that there is a wonderful opportunity to showcase Ireland. And I do have many more ideas on how that can be done. I firmly believe that this campaign has the capacity to benefit Ireland and the People of Ireland through the promotion of Ireland, the creation of hundreds of jobs and the supporting of many more. What's more I believe that there is a real opportunity to do for Genealogy what Riverdance did for Irish Dancing.

Offers of assistance would be appreciated. This would be entirely on a volunteering basis only. Previous experience of a communications-based role, campaigning and engagement with the media would be a firm advantage. Such offers can be made through the Contact Us on the campaign website.

In a similar fashion suggestions, via the campaign website, are welcome on how I can update the campaign website further to improve upon the message.

I had hoped for a warmer reception to what I believe is an exciting opportunity to make a real difference in improving the plight of our Country, especially at a time when there are so few opportunities to do so.

shanew · 20-07-2010 9:57am

I think it might be a good idea to put together a list of specific data on the collections that might be included in this system.

E.g.
Who has the records ?
what do they cover ?
what format are they in ? (microfilm , paper, books, manuscript, plate photo or other)
are any already available on a website or commercial product ?
what format would be suitable for presentation on a website and what processing would be involved to achieve this - e.g. digitizing, transcribing etc

Shane

ejmaztec · 20-07-2010 5:10pm

With the likes of Ancestry charging an arm and a leg, I'd be reluctant to back any other bunch jumping on the money-spinning bandwagon.

pinkypinky · 20-07-2010 7:31pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

With the likes of Ancestry charging an arm and a leg, I'd be reluctant to back any other bunch jumping on the money-spinning bandwagon.

Ancestry has never been granted access to Irish stuff though - what they have for Ireland is paltry.

ejmaztec · 20-07-2010 7:59pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Ancestry has never been granted access to Irish stuff though - what they have for Ireland is paltry.

I know, but it will be more than a great shame if a similar rip-off commercial organisation were to get the monopoly on all of the records here.:(

P. Breathnach · 21-07-2010 8:46am

DLohan wrote: »

... hence that is why the matter of finance is not raised in this campaign - it is seen as largely academic until access to content is furnished....

Your posts, and the sites to which you refer us, do not make it clear that a commercial project is envisaged, but it becomes more and more obvious that you have such a thing in mind, and I presume that you see yourself involved and making money from it.

It looks to me as if the "Friends of Ireland Campaign" is a front for a commercial venture. I have a strong dislike for such stealthy methods.

I am pleased to see that very few people have signed.

DLohan · 21-07-2010 10:19am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Your posts, and the sites to which you refer us, do not make it clear that a commercial project is envisaged, but it becomes more and more obvious that you have such a thing in mind, and I presume that you see yourself involved and making money from it.

It looks to me as if the "Friends of Ireland Campaign" is a front for a commercial venture. I have a strong dislike for such stealthy methods.

I am pleased to see that very few people have signed.

Look! There is no "front'.

I shall repeat an invite to you publicly that I made to somone else privately -

Some facts about the campaign -

1. No money
2. One person - me
3. Volunteers welcome, so you are most welcome to help me out in the campaign and the direction of it. The same conditions apply to you, other volunteers and me, namely all expenses come out of your own pocket and there is no pay.
I sincerely need the help so offers of volunteering are truly appreciated.
4. If the proposition sounds like a business I suppose one would reasonably have to give consideration to what other form of legal entities are possible when setting up a venture of this nature. Others here have stipulated a concern that such a venture would be financially viable and would then as a consequence need to employee people. If you have some specific legal insight as to how these objectives could be achieved then you are most welcome to share these with me. Clearly if you want to discuss these possibilites then I am happy to meet you in Cork.

The motivations -

a. Promote Ireland
b. Improve Genealogical access in general and Irish Genealogy in particular.
c. Possibly contribute to the Irish Economy - ie. take responsbility for ourselves as Citizens and not be afraid to stick ones head out. I have! And all the criticism that seems to go with it.
This last one is especially important to me, as there are many worthwhile causes such as Healthcare and Education which will need valued funds.

I hope that you can see there is no shortage of worthwhile reasons for this to be a success. I would welcome your active assistance and active participation in the success of this endeavour. I am asking nothing of others that I have not asked of myself.

DLohan · 21-07-2010 10:21am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I am pleased to see that very few people have signed.

Well, that speaks for itself!

DLohan · 21-07-2010 10:28am

ejmaztec wrote: »

I know, but it will be more than a great shame if a similar rip-off commercial organisation were to get the monopoly on all of the records here.:(

It is an interesting point. Right now the records are, for internet purposes, behind closed doors. If you consider the Irish Diaspora, and I have heard that one very prominent one has spoken about this point recently, that there is so little potential for engagement with Ireland and Irish People, so little prospect of recounting their Story of Ireland and the story of their experiences abroad.

Yet, the only seemingly popular option on this forum would be to maintain the status quo.

shanew · 21-07-2010 10:41am

DLohan wrote: »

...Right now the records are, for internet purposes, behind closed doors. ....

There's plenty of Irish records available on the internet -

Both surviving census have recently been completed and are online on a free website at the National Archives
Several large photo collections have been recently made available on the National Library Website
Many parish records for Dublin, Cork, Carlow and Kerry have been added to the IrishGenealogy website
Familysearch have the full Irish BMD Index and many extracted records
Some Clare parish records are available online
(all the above are free)
Paysites include the Irish Family History Foundation, Emerald Ancestors etc

records are being added to the above also..

Shane

DLohan · 21-07-2010 10:57am

shanew wrote: »

There's plenty of Irish records available on the internet -

Both surviving census have recently been completed and are online on a free website at the National Archives
Several large photo collections have been recently made available on the National Library Website
Many parish records for Dublin, Cork, Carlow and Kerry have been added to the IrishGenealogy website
Familysearch have the full Irish BMD Index and many extracted records
Some Clare parish records are available online
(all the above are free)
Paysites include the Irish Family History Foundation, Emerald Ancestors etc

records are being added to the above also..

Shane

So, the Irish Institutions would have nothing to contribute?

shanew · 21-07-2010 10:59am

DLohan wrote: »

So, the Irish Institutions would have nothing to contribute?

dont get what you're asking... I was just pointing out that there are many records already available online.

Shane

ejmaztec · 21-07-2010 11:02am

DLohan wrote: »

So, the Irish Institutions would have nothing to contribute?

Which records are you trying to get your hands on, exactly?

shanew · 21-07-2010 11:09am

Maybe it would be better to focus initially on records that are not included in any currently running projects. E.g. a user contributed system where people could post details to share with everyone on geographic locations, maps, photo's, old articles, family stories etc..

Shane

pinkypinky · 21-07-2010 12:13pm

DLohan wrote: »

So, the Irish Institutions would have nothing to contribute?

What other institutions are you talking about? There's quite a lot of stuff online now, as Shane listed. A few more things online include Griffiths Valuation (on 2 different sites), many directories, electoral registers for some places. Many Archives documents are too specific to spend the money on digitising them. I have heard rumours that the Tithe Applotment books are being digitised by FamilySearch too.

Petitioning for online access to Irish Genealogy

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