Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

soundman45 · 08-11-2018 12:52pm

I just dont get how hung up people are about drivers facilities, yes of course I think GA should and will provide them but stop and think of all the transport companies in the country ie DHL,TNT,UPS, Callinan Coaches, Matthews, Nolan Transport, Dixon Transport etc etc etc. What do these guys do????. Simple they go in somewhere buy a coffee use the facilities and carry on with life.

markpb · 08-11-2018 12:59pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Just from a very pedantic view, Irish Rail own little or no property, that is all vested in CIE.

CIE does not have an contract with the NTA, the contracts are with the subsidiary companies only.

So the NTA can't twist any arms in DL or elsewhere.

Who appoints the board of CIE?

dfx- · 08-11-2018 1:08pm

CramCycle wrote: »

I didn't say give, i said look into accessing them. CIE is state owned, the NTA is also state run. Surely there is a simple solution in there.
So are there staff toilets and break areas in DL for IR staff?

This would be me pointing out what you are saying, the government should do something.
Provide a small amount extra to IR for specifically cleaning and maintaining the higher usage of the facilities, if they are there, for the increased amount of use.
The only people who would object to this are those who just want to be awkward.
To be fair to GAI, if the previous posts are true, they are doing more than DB to provide for the drivers, but maybe the pay difference makes it palatable for the DB drivers.
This is, at some endpoints, an easily solvable issue, that the dept of tourism...... should simply order via CIE and the NTA

GA should be expected to provide this themselves. It should be in their contract with the NTA for them to do it just like the depot provision.

We are supposed to be getting away from the old ways of government/political interventions.

Dave_Dublin · 08-11-2018 2:57pm

Here we go wrote: »

From what Iv been told go ahead are currently fitting out a rest room/canteen area in DL and 15€ vouchers for the coffee shop in DL are avalible at the depot for drivers so they can sit in and eat and use facilities as paying customers with no cost to driver

Those vouchers were given out on ONE weekend in October by a supervisor in D.L. and then the remainder were given to drivers who'd be working the 13-hour shifts the following days.

They are NOT available "at the depot" as you say.

. . . . .

D.B. drivers have a room in D.L. DART station to sit and have a break with toilet facilities. G.A.I. drivers are not permitted to access this room.

punisher5112 · 08-11-2018 3:28pm

Dave_Dublin wrote: »

Those vouchers were given out on ONE weekend in October by a supervisor in D.L. and then the remainder were given to drivers who'd be working the 13-hour shifts the following days.

They are NOT available "at the depot" as you say.

. . . . .

D.B. drivers have a room in D.L. DART station to sit and have a break with toilet facilities. G.A.I. drivers are not permitted to access this room.

That's no longer available as there are no routes breaking there anymore.

Toilet is still available.

On the point asked above by a poster the canteen for ir staff is tiny.

46a drivers luckily still have access to toilet and only right.

As I've mentioned I'm a driver and drive cross city and routes I drive have no toilets at either end.

With the colder weather I'm finding I need to go more often and on many occasions I wouldn't make it to any garage or facilities as they are so far away from route terminus.....

I like the London method and we really need to look at it.

Stephen15 · 08-11-2018 5:56pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

That's no longer available as there are no routes breaking there anymore.

Toilet is still available.

On the point asked above by a poster the canteen for ir staff is tiny.

46a drivers luckily still have access to toilet and only right.

As I've mentioned I'm a driver and drive cross city and routes I drive have no toilets at either end.

With the colder weather I'm finding I need to go more often and on many occasions I wouldn't make it to any garage or facilities as they are so far away from route terminus.....

I like the London method and we really need to look at it.

So basically the room is lying idle apart from the jax. No reason why Go-Ahead couldn't pay rent to DB or IE whoever owns the room to allow their drivers break there and use the jax. I thinks riddiculous that DB or GAI on the 7 or 111 can't use the toilets provided in Bride's Glen for Luas drivers I believe this was rejected by SIPTU represented Luas drivers. The blue pool in Monkstown let's 4 drivers use the toilet there as I have witnessed drivers go in there to use the toilet.

I wouldn't say there any more than 5 IE staff based in DL as there is only ever one member of staff in the ticket office and a small number of DARTs terminate there.

CramCycle · 08-11-2018 7:29pm

dfx- wrote: »

GA should be expected to provide this themselves. It should be in their contract with the NTA for them to do it just like the depot provision.

We are supposed to be getting away from the old ways of government/political interventions.

You are of course correct but in a world where there are multiple operators running, it makes sense to either have shared facilities run by the overarching body or for the current owners to make them available at market rates.

The issue here once again relies at the foot of the NTA, they should have either specified it in the tender, or insured that based on the routes rendered that such facilities were available.

The idea that SIPTU drivers could stop access to a toilet facility says it all really, how is that even a union issue? Unless it was owned by Transfection, then it should have been opened by the NTA to all staff under their remit.

Cookie_Monster · 08-11-2018 8:33pm

dfx- wrote: »

GA should be expected to provide this themselves. It should be in their contract with the NTA for them to do it just like the depot provision.

why, that just leads to pointless, expensive duplication of facilities. The NTA should be providing them for all, mixed if they need to be too.
If the companies change in future it means no impact to facilities as well.

Stephen15 · 09-11-2018 4:53pm

DB looking for drivers. I wonder will Go-Ahead start to struggle to retain staff now.

dashcamdanny · 10-11-2018 12:57pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

DB looking for drivers. I wonder will Go-Ahead start to struggle to retain staff now.

I think they might lose a few , but the 2k bond is a real anchor for them.

Stephen15 · 10-11-2018 1:26pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I think they might lose a few , but the 2k bond is a real anchor for them.

Perhaps but it may mostly effect the ones who did who already had a D licence before they joined GAI. As the 2k was only for the ones who they trained up themselves.

rorybyrne7 · 10-11-2018 8:52pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Perhaps but it may mostly effect the ones who did who already had a D licence before they joined GAI. As the 2k was only for the ones who they trained up themselves.

I don't think that bond will worry the drivers the extra money they will earn in DB will well cover that bond. plus GAI said in media coverage and on the news they will cover the cost of training drivers.

CramCycle · 10-11-2018 9:18pm

rorybyrne7 wrote: »

I don't think that bond will worry the drivers the extra money they will earn in DB will well cover that bond. plus GAI said in media coverage and on the news they will cover the cost of training drivers.

Thats what I was thinking, your not goign to be worried about 2k if your earning 5k more per annum after tax

rorybyrne7 · 10-11-2018 9:51pm

CramCycle wrote: »

Thats what I was thinking, your not goign to be worried about 2k if your earning 5k more per annum after tax

lol I think it be more like 10k after tax remember GAI are only earning 14.50 an hour and they could be rostard for 44 hours and that's at 14.50 no overtime.

dashcamdanny · 10-11-2018 10:09pm

Makes me wonder. Dublin bus have lots of marked in drivers going spare. As GA are taking routes of us. Are DB doing this now to give GA a good kick when they are stuggling already. Perfectly timed ..

KD345 · 10-11-2018 10:24pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Makes me wonder. Dublin bus have lots of marked in drivers going spare. As GA are taking routes of us. Are DB doing this now to give GA a good kick when they are stuggling already. Perfectly timed ..

Keep in mind the Dublin Bus services are expanding, not only at peak but also at weekends. Many existing routes are increasing frequency at weekends such as the recent changes with the 14 and 15 etc. All of these changes require extra drivers. We are also expecting 24 hour routes to begin in the next few months.

CramCycle · 10-11-2018 10:25pm

rorybyrne7 wrote: »

lol I think it be more like 10k after tax remember GAI are only earning 14.50 an hour and they could be rostard for 44 hours and that's at 14.50 no overtime.

I was just making up the numbers, I remember from the GAI head guy that there was at least a 10k difference, although i thought it was before tax. Either way the point stands, if your earning more than you need to payback in a short period, hard to see why you'd stay. This said I imagine there are plenty of other drivers waiting to come through but could be wrong.

Stephen15 · 10-11-2018 10:30pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Makes me wonder. Dublin bus have lots of marked in drivers going spare. As GA are taking routes of us. Are DB doing this now to give GA a good kick when they are stuggling already. Perfectly timed ..

I wouldn't think that tbh. GAI or not DB would still have to recruit drivers to replace drivers who have been dismissed, leaving or retiring.

rorybyrne7 · 10-11-2018 10:36pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I wouldn't think that tbh. GAI or not DB would still have to recruit drivers to replace drivers who have been dismissed, leaving or retiring.

GAI are going to be stretched next month ween the new routes come online for them. They are going to lose more drivers over conditions and duties while out on the road. 1 of the drivers was telling me they have walk outs everyday and even drivers not turning up without calling.

Stephen15 · 10-11-2018 10:45pm

CramCycle wrote: »

I was just making up the numbers, I remember from the GAI head guy that there was at least a 10k difference, although i thought it was before tax. Either way the point stands, if your earning more than you need to payback in a short period, hard to see why you'd stay. This said I imagine there are plenty of other drivers waiting to come through but could be wrong.

I honestly doubt that Go-Ahead claim they are offering salaries of up to €32k all though I'd say that's more around the €26k-€28k mark. DB are offering €630 a week for a 4 day week which works out around €33k a year rising to €860 a year for a 5 day week if GAI were offering 10k less than DB then GAI drivers would be only be getting €23k before tax maybe €10k less than a marked in driver but not €10k less than a spare on a 4 day week.

I'd say DB don't offer a whole lot more starting out over GAI but rather offer higher chances of rises than GAI drivers. That would be my impression it could be off.

punisher5112 · 10-11-2018 10:54pm

Db is short drivers, there are duties off daily and buses dumped all over the city as there is no relief driver.

Db has had to turn drivers away and standards of driving are high and fail rates are high also.

Some of the training buses I've seen out for GA are extremely poor and the trainers should be keeping a better eye on where their road position is.

I've had quite a few near misses in car and also as a bus driver where I've had to point to instructer to have them actually give space.

Yer Da sells Avon · 10-11-2018 11:24pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Some of the training buses I've seen out for GA are extremely poor and the trainers should be keeping a better eye on where their road position is.

Most of the training buses (the navy ex-Oxford Mercedes single-deckers) are terrible to drive - fifteen years old, rattly as hell, massive tail-swing, >12 metres long and have spongy (all-or-nothing) brakes. The logic is that if someone can master driving those monsters, they'll find the test buses (the red ex-London double-deckers) comparatively easy. Almost like driving a car in comparison. Their pass-rate is very high so far, so it seems to be working.

punisher5112 · 10-11-2018 11:26pm

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

Most of the training buses (the navy ex-Oxford Mercedes single-deckers) are terrible to drive - fifteen years old, rattly as hell, massive tail-swing, >12 metres long and have spongy (all-or-nothing) brakes. The logic is that if someone can master driving those monsters, they'll find the test buses (the red ex-London double-deckers) comparatively easy. Almost like driving a car in comparison. Their pass-rate is very high so far, so it seems to be working.

Great on the test roads but not so much around dun Laoghaire, Dalkey etc.... Tight roads.

Yer Da sells Avon · 10-11-2018 11:32pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Great on the test roads but not so much around dun Laoghaire, Dalkey etc.... Tight roads.

I think the logic behind having some lessons around Dun Laoghaire, Dalkey, Bray, etc, is that if you can avoid clipping the kerbs and roundabouts out there, you should have no problem in Finglas.

CramCycle · 10-11-2018 11:38pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I honestly doubt that Go-Ahead claim they are offering salaries of up to €32k all though I'd say that's more around the €26k-€28k mark. DB are offering €630 a week for a 4 day week which works out around €33k a year rising to €860 a year for a 5 day week if GAI were offering 10k less than DB then GAI drivers would be only be getting €23k before tax maybe €10k less than a marked in driver but not €10k less than a spare on a 4 day week.

I'd say DB don't offer a whole lot more starting out over GAI but rather offer higher chances of rises than GAI drivers. That would be my impression it could be off.

There is an interview further back in the thread where the manager of GAI gave these details openly, not as high as DB but higher than private. I just don't remember the numbers. They were a lot less than DB, But I don't think as low as your numbers.

Stephen15 · 10-11-2018 11:38pm

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

I think the logic behind having some lessons around Dun Laoghaire, Dalkey, Bray, etc, is that if you can avoid clipping the kerbs and roundabouts out there, you should have no problem in Finglas.

Also it builds up familarity with the areas which Go-Ahead are operating in if especially if the driver isn't familiar with the area for if and when they start driving for Go-Ahead. I've also noticed one or two 182 GAI SGs with L plates if I were the NTA I wouldn't be mad keen on an operator using brand new NTA owned buses for training.

Stephen15 · 11-11-2018 12:11am

I think of the Go-Ahead teething issues have been sorted there seems to be less people annoyed on Twitter at
Go-Ahead, which might be a sign things are improving. The first few times I used Go-Ahead buses the RTPI was a bit off by a few mins but today the real time was correct when I used it.

dashcamdanny · 11-11-2018 3:19pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

I honestly doubt that Go-Ahead claim they are offering salaries of up to €32k all though I'd say that's more around the €26k-€28k mark. DB are offering €630 a week for a 4 day week which works out around €33k a year rising to €860 a year for a 5 day week if GAI were offering 10k less than DB then GAI drivers would be only be getting €23k before tax maybe €10k less than a marked in driver but not €10k less than a spare on a 4 day week.

I'd say DB don't offer a whole lot more starting out over GAI but rather offer higher chances of rises than GAI drivers. That would be my impression it could be off.

DB offer a whole lot more as a new start.
You are working a whole day less in DB on the bottom rung of the ladder for more than top rate GA drivers gets , and are no where near yet.
ABout 30 hours a week on average , with pay going up on a scale for the 4 day drivers over 6 years to an extra 100 per week.
And a chance to jump onto the 5 day when you want. Which has better hourly rates and a bigger tax free bracket.

You are on full pay for your training as well with DB. And a free dinner.

GoAhead can solve their problems by paying their staff better than peanuts. And treating them as an asset to the company rather than a hindrance.

howiya · 11-11-2018 3:55pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

And a chance to jump onto the 5 day when you want. Which has better hourly rates and a bigger tax free bracket.

How does this work? Would have thought if you earn more you pay more tax

devnull · 11-11-2018 4:19pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

DB offer a whole lot more as a new start.

What, like being spare and not knowing your shift from one day to the next which wrecks havoc with your family life? A more stable rostering and shift system I have heard Go-Ahead staff speak as a big benefit over DB.

Stephen15 · 11-11-2018 4:35pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

GoAhead can solve their problems by paying their staff better than peanuts. And treating them as an asset to the company rather than a hindrance.

Do you have evidence of that?

john boye · 11-11-2018 4:44pm

Are loads of those new 4 day drivers still leaving as fast as they're joining because the shifts are horrendous or has that been stemmed?

dashcamdanny · 11-11-2018 7:05pm

devnull wrote: »

What, like being spare and not knowing your shift from one day to the next which wrecks havoc with your family life? A more stable rostering and shift system I have heard Go-Ahead staff speak as a big benefit over DB.

4 day late lads start at 3ish onwards. When I was on it, it was consistent. You now know what duty you are on 2 days in advance. I personally would like to back on it as it was like being marked in.

dashcamdanny · 11-11-2018 7:14pm

john boye wrote: »

Are loads of those new 4 day drivers still leaving as fast as they're joining because the shifts are horrendous or has that been stemmed?

Duties can be a bit crappy, as most of the lates are. You still get workouts and nice duties as well. You go to work knowing there is an 8 hour work day ahead. If you start worrying about what other marked in lads are getting, you will just do your own head in. Out of the 10 or so started with me. 1 has left in nearly 3 years. Over child care . If one thinks that go-ahead are better to work for than DB, they are disillusioned.

Stephen15 · 11-11-2018 7:30pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Duties can be a bit crappy, as most of the lates are. You still get workouts and nice duties as well. You go to work knowing there is an 8 hour work day ahead. If you start worrying about what other marked in lads are getting, you will just do your own head in. Out of the 10 or so started with me. 1 has left in nearly 3 years. Over child care . If one thinks that go-ahead are better to work for than DB, they are disillusioned.

What's a workout duty? Is it just another name for a bogey?

dashcamdanny · 11-11-2018 7:38pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

What's a workout duty? Is it just another name for a bogey?

It's a duty about 5 hours long with no break. Bogeys are like two short runs with a 3 or 4 hour break. Suit some people.

AlekSmart · 11-11-2018 8:57pm

devnull wrote: »

What, like being spare and not knowing your shift from one day to the next which wrecks havoc with your family life? A more stable rostering and shift system I have heard Go-Ahead staff speak as a big benefit over DB.

You may be a small bit behind the curve,in relation to your perceptions of what people find acceptable or not.

You may believe that GAI's rostering and shift systems are vastly superior (for yourself),however as current events are showing,the company is having to reassess and modify it's arrangemets going forward,just as Bus Atha Cliath's rosters and shifts today are nothing at all like what prevailed 10 or 20 years ago.

It is very easy to get a somewhat skewed view of these issues on fora such as this,when a small handful of posters can,by persistence alone,appear to represent a vast army of disaffected,angry employees howling at the moon in their haste to collapse the entire sector.

From experience,BAC with 3,500 employees,the majority of whom are working a broad spectrum of rosters across several sectors,there will never be a universally popular shift pattern.

What is the case,and will continue to be so going forward,is the tendency of shifts to become more individualized to routes,sectors,seasons and even individual staff members.

I do not doubt that some of your contacts in GAI,will find their rostering system more acceptable than BAC's however,unless you have engaged in some form of universal and confidential sampling process,I would be less confident of this being representative of all such staff.

Public Transport service provision across ALL sectors will always involve shift-working,and unpleasant & unpopular shifts at that.

I have absolutely NO doubt,that as GA entrenches itself further in Ireland,the exact same grumbles,growls and moans that pervade BAC related threads will take centre stage with them too.

That's life ?

AlekSmart · 11-11-2018 9:06pm

john boye wrote: »

Are loads of those new 4 day drivers still leaving as fast as they're joining because the shifts are horrendous or has that been stemmed?

It has not been "stemmed",as there has not been anything to stem.

There never were "Loads" of new 4 day drivers leaving.

The attrition rate is in the region of 8%,with several different reasons for leaving,such as better Job offers in the Fire Brigade,Gardai or Ambulance Service,in addition to several returning to self-employment in the Building Trade.

It has to be borne in mind,that with 3,500 staff,there will always be a staff-turnover ratio,due to Retirement,Resignation,Promotion,Death in Service,Long Term Illness etc,and yes....displeasure with working hours,but not to the extent being portrayed on here.

dashcamdanny · 12-11-2018 1:47am

howiya wrote: »

How does this work? Would have thought if you earn more you pay more tax

I have no idea. Maybe it's something to do with part time and full time. But my colleagues and I went up considerably when we went on the 5 day.

XPS_Zero · 14-11-2018 6:47pm

markpb wrote: »

Who appoints the board of CIE?

The Transport minister, who the board answer to. Day to day operations are not meant to be micromanaged by ministers in agencies that have been separated from the civil service, but they can if they want to, they can change laws or issue ministerial orders at any time too, in the latter case, an SI as it's formally called, an executive order as the Americans call it, it's literally stroke of the pen law of the land, as long as it's consistent with the "purposes and principles" of the act under which it's issued, it's as valid as an act of the oireachtas.

So while they are not meant to micro manage day to day operations (mostly so the people who know what they are doing can do their job in peace) they can make strategic decisions and flat out order them to implement them.

CIE are not in charge, IE are not in charge, the govt are in charge, the govt is their legal master, paymaster and can make and unmake them, they will do what they are god damn told to do if they are told to do it, it's that simple.

CramCycle · 14-11-2018 7:43pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I have no idea. Maybe it's something to do with part time and full time. But my colleagues and I went up considerably when we went on the 5 day.

Your pay must have went up considerably then as you don't gain tax credits, and no company can giFt them to you, they are set out by the government and implemented by Revenue.

It makes more sense that it's simply not a pro rata increase in basic pay.

Stephen15 · 14-11-2018 7:54pm

CramCycle wrote: »

Your pay must have went up considerably then as you don't gain tax credits, and no company can giFt them to you, they are set out by the government and implemented by Revenue.

It makes more sense that it's simply not a pro rata increase in basic pay.

€630 for a four day week and €860 for a five day week is the amount mentioned on the DB website

dublinman1990 · 15-11-2018 9:56pm

GAI have their re-designed website up live on the web with links to the TFI Journey Planner.

https://www.goaheadireland.ie/

They also had Ed Wills up for an interview on East Coast FM this morning.

https://twitter.com/morningecfm/status/1063025926215229440

Kh1993 · 16-11-2018 1:09pm

DB have announced a whole host of new timetables (4, 16, 40e being the main ones) to start on 2nd December when the next tranche of buses move to Go Ahead.

Yet, as of yet, no information on Go Ahead and NTA’s websites of the timetables or details of 17a, 102, 33a/b yet. Fairly amateurish tbh.

devnull · 16-11-2018 2:45pm

Kh1993 wrote: »

DB have announced a whole host of new timetables (4, 16, 40e being the main ones) to start on 2nd December when the next tranche of buses move to Go Ahead.

Yet, as of yet, no information on Go Ahead and NTA’s websites of the timetables or details of 17a, 102, 33a/b yet. Fairly amateurish tbh.

DB announced changes with only a few days notice when the last couple of batches of GoAhead services went live.

prettyboy81 · 16-11-2018 3:21pm

Kh1993 wrote: »

DB have announced a whole host of new timetables (4, 16, 40e being the main ones) to start on 2nd December when the next tranche of buses move to Go Ahead.

Yet, as of yet, no information on Go Ahead and NTA’s websites of the timetables or details of 17a, 102, 33a/b yet. Fairly amateurish tbh.

Why what's the rush in seeing the timetable? Surely, a week - 10 days in advance is ample notice for commuters. There won't be dramatic changes to timetable. Hardly amateurish & a bit of an overreaction.

ax586 · 16-11-2018 3:46pm

Kh1993 wrote: »

DB have announced a whole host of new timetables (4, 16, 40e being the main ones) to start on 2nd December when the next tranche of buses move to Go Ahead.

Yet, as of yet, no information on Go Ahead and NTA’s websites of the timetables or details of 17a, 102, 33a/b yet. Fairly amateurish tbh.

They are waiting for the call from the nta to realise it plus only drivers got there rotas for the north side routes today

Stephen15 · 16-11-2018 7:39pm

It appears that the switchover of the last round of routes has been delayed until early Feburary according to Go-Aheads Twitter page.

Stephen15 · 16-11-2018 7:42pm

ax586 wrote: »

They are waiting for the call from the nta to realise it plus only drivers got there rotas for the north side routes today

Are the using the same drivers for the Northside routes as they are using for the Southside routes or is it a different set of drivers.

punisher5112 · 16-11-2018 8:46pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Are the using the same drivers for the Northside routes as they are using for the Southside routes or is it a different set of drivers.

They are training lots of buses going around from old to new.

Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

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