The NS10,000 Project

iquinn · 20-07-2008 10:21pm

cool, will do.

i was thinking earlier, maybe using Black hole 5 dampening material inside your frankens10's might give you another nip and tuck in the right direction.

PaulBrewer · 20-07-2008 10:51pm

iquinn wrote: »

cool, will do.

i was thinking earlier, maybe using Black hole 5 dampening material inside your frankens10's might give you another nip and tuck in the right direction.

Never heard of that either! Cheers.

PaulBrewer · 20-07-2008 11:30pm

http://www.duelundaudio.com/index.asp

Thinking of using these guys stuff as the have the exact values needed - sure I better change the inductors too I suppose?

PaulBrewer · 22-07-2008 3:07pm

I've just had a facinating Skype Text conversation with Frederik from

http://www.duelundaudio.com/index.asp

re crossover components.

So much so that we're now going to represent his brand here in Ireland!

I'm looking forward to getting some capacitors and inductors over soon.

(actually on re reading, that's a horrid geeky post innit?)

iquinn · 22-07-2008 3:17pm

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I've just had a facinating Skype Text conversation with Frederik from

http://www.duelundaudio.com/index.asp

re crossover components.

So much so that we're now going to represent his brand here in Ireland!

I'm looking forward to getting some capacitors and inductors over soon.

(actually on re reading, that's a horrid geeky post innit?)

cool.
how do they compare price wise to the mundorf's?

PaulBrewer · 22-07-2008 3:37pm

I'm not sure yet how pricing will be - however Frederik is quite confident about performance as this shows!

Duelund Coherent Audio
15:22
You may not have seen this
15:23

our entry level VSF compared to Mundorfs et al
15:23

Sound: WOW! Now I know how natural a capacitor can sound! They are super natural, smooth, clear, open, and at the same time they stay calm and controlled but delivering dynamics when the music calls for it. The tonal balance is near perfection, especially audible on acoustic instruments and the human voice. This makes my classical music collection so much more realistic. Also I was very pleased with the separation of every individual instrument in an orchestra, the string section is much more a group of individuals rather than just a group. In comparison I found the Mundorf Silver/Gold to be a little over-etched sometimes, they seem to have a slight top-end emphasis. The Duelund VSF Copper Capacitor seems to be the only capacitor I have tested so far that doesn’t need bypassing with an MKP1837 to be at its best. Still my ooh so natural reference!

iquinn · 22-07-2008 3:41pm

interesting.....
pm me when you get them in and organised.

sei046 · 22-07-2008 6:56pm

This is getting pretty interesting!

iquinn · 22-07-2008 8:04pm

by the by, what are you powering them with?

my next DIY project is a hypex amp-
http://www.hypex.nl/

PaulBrewer · 22-07-2008 8:33pm

I'm thinking of a pair these -
http://www.bryston.ca/pp120sst_m.html

iquinn · 22-07-2008 11:12pm

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I'm thinking of a pair these -
http://www.bryston.ca/pp120sst_m.html

excellent!

PaulBrewer · 06-08-2008 11:13am

Ok.... I'm bonkers , alright? I don't need you to tell me ....

I just spent over 2000 Euro on crossover parts for the NS10,000s ...

sei046 · 06-08-2008 2:51pm

wha.....

PaulBrewer · 06-08-2008 2:53pm

these feckers better be good!

sei046 · 06-08-2008 4:19pm

Ok I take it this will be a one off pair.....They are clearly no longer NS10s

if6was9 · 06-08-2008 5:35pm

Just curious,
when your done- are you pretty much going to have a full set of spare ns-10 parts that almost make up a complete set again?

PaulBrewer · 06-08-2008 5:42pm

if6was9 wrote: »

Just curious,
when your done- are you pretty much going to have a full set of spare ns-10 parts that almost make up a complete set again?

Yes, I guess so.
The drivers while operational are well shook, and it's only the crossover components I'm changing not the board. The internal cabling is just a bit of wire.

jimi_t · 07-08-2008 3:09pm

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Sound: WOW! Now I know how natural a capacitor can sound! They are super natural, smooth, clear, open, and at the same time they stay calm and controlled but delivering dynamics when the music calls for it. The tonal balance is near perfection, especially audible on acoustic instruments and the human voice. This makes my classical music collection so much more realistic. Also I was very pleased with the separation of every individual instrument in an orchestra, the string section is much more a group of individuals rather than just a group. In comparison I found the Mundorf Silver/Gold to be a little over-etched sometimes, they seem to have a slight top-end emphasis. The Duelund VSF Copper Capacitor seems to be the only capacitor I have tested so far that doesn’t need bypassing with an MKP1837 to be at its best. Still my ooh so natural reference!

You might want to have a look into these as well then Paul

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm

PaulBrewer · 07-08-2008 3:14pm

jimi_t wrote: »

You might want to have a look into these as well then Paul

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm

sweet divine jaysus ..... I'll draw the line at the Brystons, that'll make it about 5k for a pair of powered NS10s!

sei046 · 07-08-2008 3:26pm

Lol i love it.

cornbb · 07-08-2008 3:46pm

jimi_t wrote: »

You might want to have a look into these as well then Paul

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm

Brilliant! Where's my credit card??

iquinn · 12-08-2008 11:26am

speaking of yamaha monitors.....
anyone ever heard a set of NS1000m's or 1000X?

PaulBrewer · 12-08-2008 1:41pm

iquinn wrote: »

speaking of yamaha monitors.....
anyone ever heard a set of NS1000m's or 1000X?

No! I'd guess a 3 way system would give a lad a whole heap o pain with phase and 2 crossover points!

But that's just speculation ....

iquinn · 28-08-2008 3:37pm

nice NS10 article in Sound on Sound this month...

PaulBrewer · 28-08-2008 5:31pm

iquinn wrote: »

nice NS10 article in Sound on Sound this month...

Who wrote it?

iquinn · 28-08-2008 6:56pm

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Who wrote it?

Phil Ward

sei046 · 28-08-2008 8:42pm

jsut read it

PaulBrewer · 28-08-2008 9:40pm

I'm still awaiting my Caps + Inductors ... the lad who makes them, just got married!!

sei046 · 30-08-2008 12:02am

UH oh, the chage is seriously getting in the way already!

PaulBrewer · 01-09-2008 12:46pm

iquinn wrote: »

nice NS10 article in Sound on Sound this month...

I just read that SOS article, there are a few coincidences in it.

It refers to Philip Newell and Keith Hollland's study of them and an article they wrote in 2001. We visited Newell in Spain last year and he took the trouble to send me that article a couple of months ago.

Andy Munro's paper in the 90s is mentioned, his company does our Acoustic work for us - he's never mentioned that paper but I'll track down a copy now.

Phil Ward refers to the AE22 speakers, we've recently been looking at them too and have a pair over for evaluation. I posted on them here recently.

Maybe I'm not so bonkers after all?

That's a Rhetorical question by the way ....

jtsuited · 01-09-2008 1:30pm

a nice article in SOS.
Dispelled many of the myths anywho.

And has me trawling ebay for the cheapest set I can find!

iquinn · 01-09-2008 9:05pm

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I just read that SOS article, there are a few coincidences in it.

It refers to Philip Newell and Keith Hollland's study of them and an article they wrote in 2001. We visited Newell in Spain last year and he took the trouble to send me that article a couple of months ago.

Andy Munro's paper in the 90s is mentioned, his company does our Acoustic work for us - he's never mentioned that paper but I'll track down a copy now.

Phil Ward refers to the AE22 speakers, we've recently been looking at them too and have a pair over for evaluation. I posted on them here recently.

Maybe I'm not so bonkers after all?

That's a Rhetorical question by the way ....

PaulBrewer · 01-09-2008 9:08pm

Shadow and Substance, that's the Shizit!

I might have my capacinductors by weekend!

iquinn · 01-09-2008 9:14pm

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Shadow and Substance, that's the Shizit!

I might have my capacinductors by weekend!

cool, do you have a standard pair for comparison?

PaulBrewer · 01-09-2008 9:17pm

iquinn wrote: »

cool, do you have a standard pair for comparison?

Yes, but they sounded different to the ones we bought to butcher so I'm not sure what good that comparison is.

Philip Newell has offered to measure them for me ..... It might be another excuse for a trip to the beautiful city of Vigo!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

iquinn · 02-09-2008 10:15am

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Yes, but they sounded different to the ones we bought to butcher so I'm not sure what good that comparison is.

grand so.

COOKSTER · 02-09-2008 1:45pm

I Love the line about it being just a bit of wire in the box. If you're going for it, and I think you already have, then that bit of wire might just be holding you back. If you know studios and cabling then you should know what I'm getting at. I'd also be curious about the power supply to your "2" amps, cable lengths, signal feed cables from desk to amp and amp to speakers, and all interconnection points. Just make sure you know at what point you will be satisfied, decide it before you blow too much money.

The reason NS10's are in so many studios, is not because they are brilliant speakers. They are hard to listen to for a long time and most musicians will ask you to change their mix unless you play it through another speaker. However, they do fulfill a purpose, every engineer knows how NS10 should sound. No matter what studio I go into, if it has NS10, I know where I'm starting from. "If it sounds good on an NS10, it'll sound good on anything!

A couple of other points (and your phase correction might have undone something here!!).
Firstly, the "Crossover point" of most speakers generally has a dip of a couple of dB, NS10 doesn't have this. It is generally around 2k -2k5Hz
Seconly there is a boost at 1k5Hz which is what makes them bright and harsh
Thirdly, if you have come across "Loudness" control on home stereo systems, this is to compensate for changes in tonal perception at low levels. Monitoring at loud levels our NS10s trick us into lowering the mids and raising the lows, which makes our mix sound naff on other speakers.

I know I've hit a few different points. I like the way you're thinking, how else is progress made. This thread's a bit like Top Gear, actually I might have a couple of old speakers we could try and blow up.
Best of luck
C

PaulBrewer · 02-09-2008 5:29pm

COOKSTER wrote: »

I

Love the line about it being just a bit of wire in the box. If you're going for it, and I think you already have, then that bit of wire might just be holding you back. If you know studios and cabling then you should know what I'm getting at.

I'm using VoVox's speaker wire. www.vovox.com It's good shizit as a few lads here will confirm.

Just make sure you know at what point you will be satisfied, decide it before you blow too much money.

Ah Chief, That point was months ago!

Seconly there is a boost at 1k5Hz which is what makes them bright and harsh

There is a boost ok, but only a bad amp or worn out drivers will make them harsh (or a harsh input signal!)

e.

This thread's a bit like Top Gear, actually I might have a couple of old speakers we could try and blow up.
Best of luck
C

Cheers

PaulBrewer · 02-09-2008 7:05pm

Just got a mail from Philip Newell - whose reference work was quoted in the SOS article.

'I am currently writing an article for Resolution magazine called Whither Monitoring? Fashions may change, but ears and acoustics do not change. If the NS10 worked then, then it can still work now.'

Sounds like that will be good, sign up for Resolution!

PaulBrewer · 19-09-2008 6:43pm

So I get an email from my 'hi-fi' capacitor/inductor guy saying that my bits wouldn't be ready for another week....

..... because he had flu!

'boutique' or wha?

PaulBrewer · 26-09-2008 11:08am

Here's a picture of the capacitors for the NS 10,000s .....

iquinn · 26-09-2008 11:11am

you'll need a big soldering iron

sei046 · 26-09-2008 2:15pm

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Here's a picture of the capacitors for the NS 10,000s .....

Anyone seen Jericho?

PaulBrewer · 02-10-2008 9:37pm

The NS 10,000's crossover components leave Denmark tomorrow, so I might have them Monday.

PaulBrewer · 08-10-2008 7:11pm

Crossover bits are here!

How da feck am I going to fit that lot in? See the car key on the right? Thems big mammy feckers!

The capacitors look like huge After 8s...

iquinn · 08-10-2008 7:15pm

so are they resistors on the left?

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Crossover bits are here!

How da feck am I going to fit that lot in? See the car key on the right? Thems big mammy feckers!

The capacitors look like huge After 8s...

iquinn · 08-10-2008 7:19pm

i'm just thinking, will the psychical size of the components not effect what's happening inside the cabinet and consequently effect the sound in some way?

PaulBrewer · 08-10-2008 7:39pm

No, they're inductors. There are only 2 x inductors and 2 x capacitors in the crossovers, no resistors.

I was thinking exactly the same thing regarding volume.

However, as I recall there's a circuit board within the speakers as it is. My plan is to take that out.

I'll probably epoxy resin the caps to the sides behind the internal damping.

Using the 'Phase Adjusters' as seen here -

http://file042a.bebo.com/12/large/2008/10/08/18/3045838351a9093299689l.jpg

I'm actually increasing cabinet size so the inductors may claw some of that back.

I was talking to Philip Newell in Spain yesterday and he'll probably measure them when they're done in either Vigo or Southhampton University.

I'll ask him afore I start doing anything too nuts ...

iquinn · 08-10-2008 9:24pm

cool

PaulBrewer wrote: »

No, they're inductors. There are only 2 x inductors and 2 x capacitors in the crossovers, no resistors.

I was thinking exactly the same thing regarding volume.

However, as I recall there's a circuit board within the speakers as it is. My plan is to take that out.

I'll probably epoxy resin the caps to the sides behind the internal damping.

Using the 'Phase Adjusters' as seen here -

http://file042a.bebo.com/12/large/2008/10/08/18/3045838351a9093299689l.jpg

I'm actually increasing cabinet size so the inductors may claw some of that back.

I was talking to Philip Newell in Spain yesterday and he'll probably measure them when they're done in either Vigo or Southhampton University.

I'll ask him afore I start doing anything too nuts ...

sei046 · 09-10-2008 1:44pm

Exciting stuff. You could have saved yourself all this and got a set of Tannoy Reveals though.

The NS10,000 Project

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