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Using DeGiro

1…457910…31

Comments

  • #302
    Voltex
    Registered Users Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Voltex


    Ush1 wrote: »
    Are yous going with basic or custody accounts lads?

    I think most go with basic (or so I was told by DeGiro)...custody if your not happy with your shares being used for shorting.


  • #303
    heffo500
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 966 ✭✭✭heffo500


    Voltex wrote: »
    I think most go with basic (or so I was told by DeGiro)...custody if your not happy with your shares being used for shorting.

    I always would recommend the custody option, I don't think your getting much in return for letting them use your shares. At least with the custody your positions are without question safe.

    A Custody profile is different from a Basic profile in that the securities are held separately from the lending pool of DEGIRO clients’ securities and are thus unable to be loaned to third parties.


  • #304
    hada
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 699 ✭✭✭hada


    Hi all

    I'm currently in Australia and have acquired some Australian domiciled ETFs. However, I'm planning on moving back to Ireland at some stage next year.

    I haven't used Degiro before, but see from the website that it allows you to acquire ASX listed shares (which would include my ETF). Does anyone know if I could open an account with them and continue to invest in my portfolio (I'll consider how / if I move across my shareholding once I establish if that is possible).

    Thanks!


  • #305
    dakan
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭dakan


    Hi Folks

    I'm new to Degiro and am looking to do research before investing in EFTs. I came across this article; Irish Times about Degiro and tax.

    Just wondering has anyone gone through the process of paying tax on gains made on Degiro and what did that entail?

    Thanks.


  • #306
    dakan
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭dakan


    dakan wrote: »
    Hi Folks

    I'm new to Degiro and am looking to do research before investing in EFTs. I came across this article; Irish Times about Degiro and tax.

    Just wondering has anyone gone through the process of paying tax on gains made on Degiro and what did that entail?

    Thanks.

    Just to answer my own question. I found this blog and it answers the question - Informed Decisions blog.


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  • #307
    NoteAgent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭NoteAgent


    How large would your portfolio have to be before considering transfering it out of degiro to a more mainstream broker such as Jp Morgan, Fidelity, etc. for safety, and peace of mind. One hundred thousand? One million?


  • #308
    Shai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 226 ✭✭Shai


    1. if you use a Custody account, DeGiro can not lend your shares to other institutions and does not hold your shares and money on its own book. So in theory, you'd be completely safe unless DeGiro were to commit fraud.
    2. if DeGiro were to commit fraud, then the Dutch Investor Compensation Scheme will reimburse you up to 20k euro.
    3. if you were to transfer your money to a big investment firm, then they too would in theory operate under the rules laid out in 1. Unless of course they were to commit fraud as well.
    4. most large US investments firms operate under SIPC insurance, which means you can be compensated for up to 500k dollars (a max of 250k of which can be cash). Foreigners investing directly in a US brokerage are also afforded this protection. However, I'm not sure if the EU branches of these firms also operate under SIPC.
    5. investments in US brokers that are over 60k dollars, are in theory susceptible to an inheritance tax, but there is some doubt about how this would play out in practice


  • #309
    NoteAgent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭NoteAgent


    Thanks!

    Its definitely the best execution-only, buy and hold type of broker


  • #310
    Supercell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,483 ✭✭✭✭Supercell


    Is it possible to buy CEF's through Degiro?
    I often see them mentioned on Seeking Alpha with very nice dividends but it looks like they are like American ETF's which are frustratingly not allowed in the EU, is that the case?
    If so are there any EU ones we can invest or are able to invest in using Degiro, with such tasty dividends?
    https://www.loughlinstown.ie/

    Have a weather station?, why not join the Ireland Weather Network - http://irelandweather.eu/



  • #311
    NoteAgent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭NoteAgent


    I wonder what broker some of the big name Irish investors, like say John Magnier, would use?

    I presume not discount brokers like degiro but I also think he wouldn't like getting ripped off by a Davy's or Goodbody's either.


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  • #312
    hakg97
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭hakg97


    Hey does anyone have the IBAN for Degiro im trying to validate my account by doing the first transfer but this is all ive been given:

    Name of beneficiary Stichting DEGIRO
    Sort Code 23-10-48
    Account number 75631100
    Bank name Deutsche Bank

    Do I actually have to go into the bank because i cant find the IBAN anywhere


  • #313
    Supercell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,483 ✭✭✭✭Supercell


    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057789028&page=13
    https://www.loughlinstown.ie/

    Have a weather station?, why not join the Ireland Weather Network - http://irelandweather.eu/



  • #314
    gavmcg92
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,317 ✭✭✭gavmcg92


    hakg97 wrote: »
    Hey does anyone have the IBAN for Degiro im trying to validate my account by doing the first transfer but this is all ive been given:

    Name of beneficiary Stichting DEGIRO
    Sort Code 23-10-48
    Account number 75631100
    Bank name Deutsche Bank

    Do I actually have to go into the bank because i cant find the IBAN anywhere

    https://www.ibancalculator.com/


  • #315
    gavmcg92
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,317 ✭✭✭gavmcg92


    NoteAgent wrote: »
    I wonder what broker some of the big name Irish investors, like say John Magnier, would use?

    I presume not discount brokers like degiro but I also think he wouldn't like getting ripped off by a Davy's or Goodbody's either.

    Platform like Conexim.


  • #316
    NoteAgent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭NoteAgent


    gavmcg92 wrote: »
    Platform like Conexim.

    Never heard of this. I actually looked up my question since lol. Him and JPMcM used Goldman Sachs to purchase their shares in Man Utd way back in the day. Can only imagine what the fees were like lol


  • #317
    pluto_322
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭pluto_322


    hakg97 wrote: »
    Hey does anyone have the IBAN for Degiro im trying to validate my account by doing the first transfer but this is all ive been given:

    Name of beneficiary Stichting DEGIRO
    Sort Code 23-10-48
    Account number 75631100
    Bank name Deutsche Bank

    Do I actually have to go into the bank because i cant find the IBAN anywhere
    __________________________________________________________________






    Name of beneficiaryStichting DEGIROIBANNL37DEUT0319825019BICDEUTNL2ABank nameDeutsche Bank AGBank addressDe Entree 195, 1101 HE Amsterdam, Netherlands


  • #318
    ygolometsipe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 882 ✭✭✭ygolometsipe


    I have a basic account for a long time.


    I would like to start trading options, specifically buying calls/puts (never writing).
    I see I can upgrade from basic to active trader. I have to fill out the margin trading documents / agreements.
    I could not find what Degiros default position is if a call expires in the money. Do they auto exercise it? Is this an options?
    I don't plan to exercise any options, only sell and take the premium.

    Is their anything I should know about degiro / options trading?

    I feel pretty confident but I am cautious as I know options / margin can get you into pretty serious trouble.


  • #319
    towger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 440 ✭✭towger


    Is there a way to show the total cumulative gain/loss on just the shares still held ?
    The gain shown in the dashboard also includes the realised gains made on shares already sold.


  • #320
    Iseesheeps
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭Iseesheeps


    Hello guys, i have just set up my account and wish to start investing although i have a question and I did some search but couldn't find an answer so hoping for some help here, as you can trade in a number of exchanges with Degiro i noticed for certain stocks like Sony or Tesla which am interested in that they are duel listed in both the NASDAQ and Borse Frankfurt exchanges, it seems like a no brainier to buy in the latter to avoid any currency conversion fees and losses in that exchange but is their any advantages to buying from the NASDAQ and dollars as suppose to the FRA?


  • #321
    RedRochey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,298 ✭✭✭RedRochey


    I had a stop loss order on Disney for the last few weeks and tomorrow it has just disappeared, the limit wasn't hit, this has happened a few times now, anyone know why this happens?


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  • #322
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Iseesheeps wrote: »
    Hello guys, i have just set up my account and wish to start investing although i have a question and I did some search but couldn't find an answer so hoping for some help here, as you can trade in a number of exchanges with Degiro i noticed for certain stocks like Sony or Tesla which am interested in that they are duel listed in both the NASDAQ and Borse Frankfurt exchanges, it seems like a no brainier to buy in the latter to avoid any currency conversion fees and losses in that exchange but is their any advantages to buying from the NASDAQ and dollars as suppose to the FRA?

    FYI I have created a separate thread on that topic: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=112010552


  • #323
    dotsman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    Iseesheeps wrote: »
    Hello guys, i have just set up my account and wish to start investing although i have a question and I did some search but couldn't find an answer so hoping for some help here, as you can trade in a number of exchanges with Degiro i noticed for certain stocks like Sony or Tesla which am interested in that they are duel listed in both the NASDAQ and Borse Frankfurt exchanges, it seems like a no brainier to buy in the latter to avoid any currency conversion fees and losses in that exchange but is their any advantages to buying from the NASDAQ and dollars as suppose to the FRA?

    Buy on Nasdaq!!!

    Fees are much lower than European exchanges.


  • #324
    Sabre Man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭Sabre Man


    StockTwat29 wrote: »
    I had a stop loss order on Disney for the last few weeks and tomorrow it has just disappeared, the limit wasn't hit, this has happened a few times now, anyone know why this happens?

    Was it a day order instead of GTC ( good 'til cancelled)?


  • #325
    Live at Three
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 300 ✭✭Live at Three


    StockTwat29 wrote: »
    I had a stop loss order on Disney for the last few weeks and tomorrow it has just disappeared, the limit wasn't hit, this has happened a few times now, anyone know why this happens?

    That's happened me a few times too. I think if the price moves too far from your limit it gets cancelled.
    Don't know what the threshold is but you could test it by setting a limit for a ridiculously low number, say 1 dollar, it won't allow you to set it and will show you an error message telling you the allowed threshold.
    A trailing stop would avoid this but is only available on certain European exchanges I think.


  • #326
    RedRochey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,298 ✭✭✭RedRochey


    GTC, I have them on most of my positions but Disney was the only one that disappeared, they were set at 10% below the current price which isn't that far off you would think


  • #327
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    I registered with Degiro and I have to say the first impression is pretty bad.

    I was considering some precious metal ETFs which are on the list of commission-free ETFs on their Irish website, but after registering I can’t see them on the platform (nor any other gold or silver ETF I am aware of).

    I sent an email to customer service to inquire and here is the answer I got:
    DEGIRO wrote:
    Thanks for your contact!

    Some ETFs on this list are not available!

    The list is outdated!

    You can check the products available in the platform!

    Any further question please contact us by phone!

    So with this I can see:
    - they are advertising stuff on their website which isn’t actually available
    - they don’t seem to care about updating the list which they themselves refer to as outdated
    - the writing style of their reps isn’t exactly very professional
    - they aren’t offering such basic product as a gold or silver ETF, really??

    I also sent them another query with regards to share ownership on the platform and entitlement for “bonus shares” some companies are offering to long-term shareholders, and I haven’t received an answer on that one.

    Makes me reconsider whether I want to use them to be honest.


  • #328
    dashcamdanny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,920 ✭✭✭dashcamdanny


    Hi. Was hoping for a little advise. Newbie question.

    With degiro.

    Say I want to invest 1k in a stock and want to use unit cost averaging to buy stock over 5 months.

    Say buying 200 euro of stock per month.

    Do Degiro charge more in the space of 5 purchases, over a one off 1k purchase?


  • #329
    howiya
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,323 ✭✭✭howiya


    dashcamdanny wrote: »
    Hi. Was hoping for a little advise. Newbie question.

    With degiro.

    Say I want to invest 1k in a stock and want to use unit cost averaging to buy stock over 5 months.

    Say buying 200 euro of stock per month.

    Do Degiro charge more in the space of 5 purchases, over a one off 1k purchase?

    Yes it will cost more to buy 5 times rather than one purchase.

    As an example if the stock is a UK company the fee per trade is €4 + 0.058%. So if you were to buy once you only pay the €4 once. If you buy five times you pay €20 + 0.058%


  • #330
    heffo500
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 966 ✭✭✭heffo500


    Bob24 wrote: »
    I registered with Degiro and I have to say the first impression is pretty bad.

    I was considering some precious metal ETFs which are on the list of commission-free ETFs on their Irish website, but after registering I can’t see them on the platform (nor any other gold or silver ETF I am aware of).

    I sent an email to customer service to inquire and here is the answer I got:



    So with this I can see:
    - they are advertising stuff on their website which isn’t actually available
    - they don’t seem to care about updating the list which they themselves refer to as outdated
    - the writing style of their reps isn’t exactly very professional
    - they aren’t offering such basic product as a gold or silver ETF, really??

    I also sent them another query with regards to share ownership on the platform and entitlement for “bonus shares” some companies are offering to long-term shareholders, and I haven’t received an answer on that one.

    Makes me reconsider whether I want to use them to be honest.

    I have never received a response like that from DeGiro normally when I request a Product insertion it happens soon enough. For instance I requested
    iShares Physical Gold ETC on the LSE and it was added within a week.


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  • #331
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    heffo500 wrote: »
    I have never received a response like that from DeGiro normally when I request a Product insertion it happens soon enough. For instance I requested
    iShares Physical Gold ETC on the LSE and it was added within a week.

    Thanks. For some reason the answer came from the Portuguese customer service email address (although I had used the Irish one to submit my question and the rep’s email signature says Ireland service desk); maybe it has to do with then writing style?

    I actually can’t see iShares Physical Gold either. It looks like there is no issue with shares but the choice of ETFs is very limited. I suspect it might be something to do with my account.

    Would you mind checking if you can see the one with ISIN JE00B1VS3333? (ETFS PHYSIC SILVER)


  • #332
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Thanks. For some reason the answer came from the Portuguese customer service email address (although I had used the Irish one to submit my question and the rep’s email signature says Ireland service desk); maybe it has to do with then writing style?

    I actually can’t see iShares Physical Gold either. It looks like there is no issue with shares but the choice of ETFs is very limited. I suspect it might be something to do with my account.

    Would you mind checking if you can see the one with ISIN JE00B1VS3333? (ETFS PHYSIC SILVER)

    It shows up for me when I search for it. I can see the buy and sell buttons for it as well.


  • #333
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    AlmightyCushion wrote: »
    It shows up for me when I search for it. I can see the buy and sell buttons for it as well.

    Cheers ... when I type the code or the name in the search box, nothing comes up.

    I will have to chase them so, but after exchanging 2 emails on the topic the guy who is replying to me doesn’t seem very interested in helping. Hopefully it can be routed to someone else.

    Could it be because I chose a custody profile? (my understanding is that it shouldn’t block any ETF - and there are other ETFs I can see, but this is the only choice I can think I was asked to make when I registered)


  • #334
    heffo500
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 966 ✭✭✭heffo500


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Cheers ... when I type the code or the name in the search box, nothing comes up.

    I will have to chase them so, but after exchanging 2 emails on the topic they guy who his replying to me doesn’t seem very interested in helping. Hopefully it can be routed to someone else.

    Could it be because I chose a custody profile? (my understanding is that it shouldn’t block any ETF - and there are other ETFs I can see, but this is the only choice I can think I was asked to make when I registered)


    That's very strange I have a custody account and it appears to limit what you can access, I cannot find anything for JE00B1VS3333.

    I've emailed to DeGiro to see what I cannot see it on the Custody account.


  • #335
    AlmightyCushion
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Mine is a basic account so it looks like it's something specific to custody accounts seeing as both of you can't find it when you search.


  • #336
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    heffo500 wrote: »
    That's very strange I have a custody account and it appears to limit what you can access, I cannot find anything for JE00B1VS3333.

    I've emailed to DeGiro to see what I cannot see it on the Custody account.

    Thanks. That is what I suspected; can you please let me know if they give you a better answer than they did to me? (I have also sent a follow-up email and will share here)

    What is strange is that it is not blocking all ETFs, just some of them. They should really be more clear about it if it is intentional, as I definitely remember that when I chose the account type the UI mentioned ETFs as being available for custody accounts with no exception listed.


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  • #337
    heffo500
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 966 ✭✭✭heffo500


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Thanks. That is what I suspected; can you please let me know if they give you a better answer than they did to me? (I have also sent a follow-up email and will share here)

    What is strange is that it is not blocking all ETFs, just some of them. They should really be more clear about it if it is intentional, as I definitely remember that when I chose the account type the UI mentioned ETFs as being available for custody accounts with no exception listed.

    Unless its them trying to force people to use a Basic account so they can earn money using your securities in their lending pool of DEGIRO clients’ securities and are thus able to be loaned to third parties.


  • #338
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    heffo500 wrote: »
    Unless its them trying to force people to use a Basic account so they can earn money using your securities in their lending pool of DEGIRO clients’ securities and are thus able to be loaned to third parties.

    If it is the case, they are being very misleading about it. It says black on white here that ETFs are available with custody accounts, and I don’t see any exceptions listed: https://www.degiro.ie/helpcenter/faq/my-account/1120#2142/what-types-of-profiles-does-degiro-offer


  • #339
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    heffo500 wrote: »

    I've emailed to DeGiro to see what I cannot see it on the Custody account.

    So they came back to me and said I can’t access it “as this is a ETC (exchange-traded commodity)” rather than an ETF and my profile doesn’t allow for it.

    I find it rather strange as they don’t bother making that distinction on their own documentation (it is on their list of commission free ETFs) and this restriction is not mentioned anywhere on their website.

    So still not very happy with them :-/

    Let me know what they come back to you with.


  • #340
    Hibrasil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 392 ✭✭Hibrasil


    Maybe a stupid question.... but before Buying is the commission shown separately to the cost of the equities etc.


  • #341
    cefh17
    Registered Users Posts: 990 ✭✭✭cefh17


    Hibrasil wrote: »
    Maybe a stupid question.... but before Buying is the commission shown separately to the cost of the equities etc.

    On the order screen you can see a breakdown of costs before purchase I believe


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  • #342
    mrskinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 394 ✭✭mrskinner


    userfriendly2 wrote: »
    Guys quick question and may not be for this thread but anyway,
    I have BOI paper shares and I want to digitise these and add them to my Degiro portfolio.

    I am looking for a how-to guide to get this done as I haven't a clue. I'm an intermediate investor at best but as for the legalities of the system and sector i am pretty much lost, especially when it comes to paper shares.

    I bought them a few years ago, paid massive fees and don't want to ever fall into that trap again. All help appreciated. Thanks in Advance.

    Peace.
    Anyone able to answer this?


  • #343
    corglass
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭corglass


    mrskinner wrote: »
    Anyone able to answer this?


    How many shares are we taking here?

    Your best bet may be to sell your paper shares and buy equivalent number of shares on the platform and suck up the fees.


  • #344
    mrskinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 394 ✭✭mrskinner


    Degiro doesn’t do paper!


  • #345
    Argo foc yourself
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 274 ✭✭Argo foc yourself


    Hi. Just opened account, lots to learn! Want to buy on the Australian exchange ... cannot find the share I am looking for. Can you advise please ? Possibly need to request from their customer service ?


  • #346
    Kilboor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,224 ✭✭✭Kilboor


    Argo foc yourself wrote: »
    Hi. Just opened account, lots to learn! Want to buy on the Australian exchange ... cannot find the share I am looking for. Can you advise please ? Possibly need to request from their customer service ?

    Yes, you can shoot clients@degiro.ie / .co.uk an email with the name of the company, exchange and listing ticker. Can take a few weeks to add but never had any issues.


  • #347
    Keith Dalton
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭Keith Dalton


    Sabre Man wrote: »
    You need to use these details now:
    Name of beneficiary: Stichting DEGIRO
    Account number: NL37DEUT0319825019
    IBAN: NL37DEUT0319825019
    BIC: DEUTNL2A
    Bank Name: Deutsche Bank AG
    Address: De Entree 195, 1101 HE Amsterdam, Netherlands

    So just delete the old payee as it's obsolete.


    I have used these details. And my bank does not recognise the IBAN number. They are saying that it is not a real IBAN number. I called into my branch and spoke with the girl at the counter. She try’d to set it up with no joy.

    Any1 else have this problem.


  • #348
    dotsman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    Keith Dalton wrote: »
    I have used these details. And my bank does not recognise the IBAN number. They are saying that it is not a real IBAN number. I called into my branch and spoke with the girl at the counter. She try’d to set it up with no joy.

    Any1 else have this problem.

    Name and shame the bank. It is a perfectly legit IBAN: https://www.ibancalculator.com/iban_validieren.html


  • #349
    bfa1509
    Registered Users Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭bfa1509


    I'm new to the investment business. After a shaky start (€100 lost in first two days) I am in the green thankfully for now (+3.5% overall after a few adjustments).

    I was just wondering if people put stop losses as a safety cushion on all the products in their portfolio even if they are going long?

    I hate the idea of being down money (I didn't realise how easy it can happen) and wouldn't mind putting a stop loss just above my BEP on each product. I realise there is still a risk of the stock price plunging and not recovering to the stop limit. I don't like the sound of having to sell at a loss or having the nightmare of holding onto a losing stock.

    Are there any other downsides I'm not considering?


  • #350
    Taylor365
    Registered Users Posts: 2,994 ✭✭✭Taylor365


    bfa1509 wrote: »
    I'm new to the investment business. After a shaky start (€100 lost in first two days) I am in the green thankfully for now (+3.5% overall after a few adjustments).

    I was just wondering if people put stop losses as a safety cushion on all the products in their portfolio even if they are going long?

    I hate the idea of being down money (I didn't realise how easy it can happen) and wouldn't mind putting a stop loss just above my BEP on each product. I realise there is still a risk of the stock price plunging and not recovering to the stop limit. I don't like the sound of having to sell at a loss or having the nightmare of holding onto a losing stock.

    Are there any other downsides I'm not considering?
    If you cant bear to lose money, don't invest.


    I was down 15% at one stage. Didn't touch it. Invested a little more. Now i'm nearly up 50%, in the space of 13 months!


  • #351
    bfa1509
    Registered Users Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭bfa1509


    Taylor365 wrote: »
    If you cant bear to lose money, don't invest.


    I was down 15% at one stage. Didn't touch it. Invested a little more. Now i'm nearly up 50%, in the space of 13 months!

    Very good, must be satisfying.

    I can see how not touching it is vital. I would be up 10% now had I left it alone and not got greedy. I feel like I've been lucky with the hard lessons so far and am happy enough to continue with caution.


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