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first time buyer

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  • 13-11-2020 11:37pm
    #1
    cinnamonsticks
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭


    HI All

    I am complete novice in buying a home. Need advice please.

    So i have spotted a house i am interested in

    I rang the estate agent for a viewing, whilst on the call she told me an offer had been made on the property which was 3k below asking price.
    She said bidder No.1 as we call them is organising a survey for Friday gone (6th Oct) and could fit me in for a viewing that day before they arrive.

    So i like the property and give a verbal and email (written) offer of asking price.
    I am still in process of finishing off mortgage documents from the bank - payslips/savings/salary cert from work/existing car loan whats left to pay off etc)which im told can take 10-15 days once received.

    i have spoke with my bank and have been told they cant see a problem with the mortgage request (loan compared to my salary) but it still has to go through the channels etc
    Anyways 4 days went by Saturday to Tuesday (4pm) and i had heard nothing back from the estate agent so i called her as i really want the house the location suits me perfectly and the property itself.

    I speak to her and she says a new bidder "Bidder No.2" has now made an offer of 2k over asking price. I ask why wasn't i told. She says oh its all just happened suddenly. I ask was the initial Bidder informed and she says no not yet.

    I ask has the owner been informed and again "no its all just happened recently"

    So i say ok i will put offer 2k more than last offer verbally over phone and also sent a email stating same.


    I called today for an update and was told "they are waiting on the surveyor report from original bidder first" and also that the owner has been made aware of my offer but no response on it as in accepted etc

    MY QUESTION IS

    When someone gets a survey done on the house does that mean i cannot bid ? does it mean all action stops til the results of that survey come back to the initial bidder ?

    Should my offer be forwarded straight to the owner as soon as possible ? i.e. with in the day /couple of days ?

    Also should the person who has got the survey done be updated on the latest bidding immediately ?

    And one last question - if i for example put an offer in , and it is accepted , i then move towards getting a survey done which i believe can be 2-300 euro ? and then they accept another offer do i just lose my 2-300 euro ?

    any feedback appreciated i have tried googling but google is too vague for that questions.

    Thanks


«1

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    #2
    KaneToad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,161 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    A survey means nothing in relation to 'securing' the sale. The Irish system is a joke...both parties can pull out - at any stage - up until contract signing.

    It doesn't matter that you've already spent €€€'s on surveys/engineer reports/solicitor fees.

    My advice would be not to get too hung up on one house. There will always be another house suitable for you. Buy with your head, not your heart. The process is so fickle that you are as well to keep a few properties on the go for consideration.


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    #3
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Bidding continues until no more higher bids are received and the seller agrees to the sale. A survey means nothing during the bidding process, I would be surprised if a survey is being arranged while bidding is still ongoing. Yes, you do lose the cost of the survey if you are not successful in buying the property, it is your choice to pay for it.

    To be honest, without a formal mortgage approval, I’m not sure that your bid will be accepted by the vendor, certainly you are a less appealing bidder than someone with approval or a cash buyer.


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    #4
    hurleronditch
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭hurleronditch


    The survey is an irrelevance, it may be a tactic by bidder 1 to show their seriousness but it holds no water if you can show means you outbid them. What you’re doing is fine and correct.

    An estate agent may not like you bidding if you’re not fully mortgage approved, we bid on a few houses before we secured ours, and one big brand firm said they couldn’t recognise our bid unless we sent a copy of our mortgage approval. I told her to get lost, why would I tell the representative of the seller what my spending capacity was. She reneged quick enough.


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    #5
    CarMc
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭CarMc


    All sounds a bit odd, normally you only get a survey done after your offer is accepted as they cost roughly €400 so you don’t get one on every house you bid on,

    And yes your bids should be communicated to the seller and the ‘under bidders’ immediately,

    Also you shouldn’t be bidding on houses until you have mortgage approval.


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    #6
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    KaneToad wrote: »
    A survey means nothing in relation to 'securing' the sale. The Irish system is a joke...both parties can pull out - at any stage - up until contract signing.

    It doesn't matter that you've already spent €€€'s on surveys/engineer reports/solicitor fees.

    My advice would be not to get too hung up on one house. There will always be another house suitable for you. Buy with your head, not your heart. The process is so fickle that you are as well to keep a few properties on the go for consideration.

    A survey/engineers report isn’t a legal requirement.

    The alternative would be to tie a buyer to the sale pre-contract, that could carry huge risk and expense. There is no commitment until a legal contract is signed, that allows both parties to walk away, which can be a benefit as well as a hindrance. People sometimes change their mind and circumstances change.


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    #7
    cinnamonsticks
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭cinnamonsticks


    HI Guys

    thanks the above is kind of how i understood it too.

    The seller may choose to go with a lower bid than mine "bird in the hand " i would be the same, especially if the risk/reward is not much.


    I should have noted this property to my knowledge is up for around one year, and the initial bidder No.1 was organizing the surveyor before i came in , officially i'm bidder no.2 and then after me is bidder no.3


    I agree totally tho on that if a offer is accepted and the buyer starts spending money i.e. surveyor solicitor etc then if the seller changes their mind or sells to someone else then they should have to cover them costs imo ( i know thats not how it works tho ) its a bad set up and im sure in really rural parts of the country where there is one surveyor and one estate agent there must be shenanigans happening.


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    #8
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    cinnamonsticks wrote: »
    HI Guys

    thanks the above is kind of how i understood it too.

    The seller may choose to go with a lower bid than mine "bird in the hand " i would be the same, especially if the risk/reward is not much.


    I should have noted this property to my knowledge is up for around one year, and the initial bidder No.1 was organizing the surveyor before i came in , officially i'm bidder no.2 and then after me is bidder no.3


    I agree totally tho on that if a offer is accepted and the buyer starts spending money i.e. surveyor solicitor etc then if the seller changes their mind or sells to someone else then they should have to cover them costs imo ( i know thats not how it works tho ) its a bad set up and im sure in really rural parts of the country where there is one surveyor and one estate agent there must be shenanigans happening.

    Do you think a sale agreed buyer who pulls out pre-contract should have to compensate the seller for the legal costs/re-advertisement costs/any loss incurred by the property seller if the property sells later for less than the previous underbidder was willing to pay? Perhaps the buyer should have to forfeit the booking deposit.

    Due to difficulties with drawing down mortgages at the moment, I suspect buyers pull out of sales a lot more than sellers do.

    The current situation isn’t perfect, but binding both parties to the deal before contracts are signed is fair on neither.


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    #9
    cinnamonsticks
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭cinnamonsticks


    Actually i see your point when you say it like that.


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    #10
    poker--addict
    Registered Users Posts: 1,702 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    KaneToad wrote: »
    Buy with your head, not your heart.

    Best advice so far.

    The auctioneer story could be true, but it does sound a bit weird. House for sale for over 1 year, you express an interest and someone else is already doing a survey on a house before it is sale agreed (unusual). And suddenly there is a 3rd person interested.

    Is it possible the auctioneer knows you REALLY like the property and may be working very well for the owner and not very well for you?

    I would look at another few properties, and dont get sucked into any nonsense just because you like a single property.

    😎



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    #11
    cinnamonsticks
    Registered Users Posts: 39 ✭cinnamonsticks


    Yes to the above. I made a blunder. As mentioned above by hurleronditch

    I sent my letter from the bank the "approved in Principle" showing exactly how much i was subject to checks approved for.

    so she knows my limit for the property which is double the asking price (as i am doing a purchase to renovate mortgage) basically 50% property value and 50% renovations loan.

    i was super hyped for the property but my emotions have gone off the boil after the dealings with the estate agent. It feels like i have made a genuine offer (i even offered a 2k deposit/down payment that they could keep should my mortgage not go through if they just wait 2 week while my paper work is finalised just to show i was a genuine bidder and not there to waste anyones time) and she basically said that means nothing to anyone and said no.

    As i say this is my first time buying a house so literally have zero knowledge on how these things work


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    #12
    poker--addict
    Registered Users Posts: 1,702 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    Live and learn.

    If you believe you made a genuine offer then stick with it, if someone else makes a bigger genuine offer, good luck to them. Next house.

    Given auctioneer knows your status, don’t be afraid to play hardball/cold (Firm/hardball and being a dick are two different things and don’t be afraid to be firm. It’s business).

    😎



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    #13
    Dolbhad
    Registered Users Posts: 782 ✭✭✭Dolbhad


    cinnamonsticks wrote: »
    HI All

    I am complete novice in buying a home. Need advice please.

    So i have spotted a house i am interested in

    I rang the estate agent for a viewing, whilst on the call she told me an offer had been made on the property which was 3k below asking price.
    She said bidder No.1 as we call them is organising a survey for Friday gone (6th Oct) and could fit me in for a viewing that day before they arrive.

    So i like the property and give a verbal and email (written) offer of asking price.
    I am still in process of finishing off mortgage documents from the bank - payslips/savings/salary cert from work/existing car loan whats left to pay off etc)which im told can take 10-15 days once received.

    i have spoke with my bank and have been told they cant see a problem with the mortgage request (loan compared to my salary) but it still has to go through the channels etc
    Anyways 4 days went by Saturday to Tuesday (4pm) and i had heard nothing back from the estate agent so i called her as i really want the house the location suits me perfectly and the property itself.

    I speak to her and she says a new bidder "Bidder No.2" has now made an offer of 2k over asking price. I ask why wasn't i told. She says oh its all just happened suddenly. I ask was the initial Bidder informed and she says no not yet.

    I ask has the owner been informed and again "no its all just happened recently"

    So i say ok i will put offer 2k more than last offer verbally over phone and also sent a email stating same.


    I called today for an update and was told "they are waiting on the surveyor report from original bidder first" and also that the owner has been made aware of my offer but no response on it as in accepted etc

    MY QUESTION IS

    When someone gets a survey done on the house does that mean i cannot bid ? does it mean all action stops til the results of that survey come back to the initial bidder ?

    Should my offer be forwarded straight to the owner as soon as possible ? i.e. with in the day /couple of days ?

    Also should the person who has got the survey done be updated on the latest bidding immediately ?

    And one last question - if i for example put an offer in , and it is accepted , i then move towards getting a survey done which i believe can be 2-300 euro ? and then they accept another offer do i just lose my 2-300 euro ?

    any feedback appreciated i have tried googling but google is too vague for that questions.

    Thanks

    We had something similar happen. We have bid on a lot of houses over last 18 months (most we were unsuccessful)

    We were bidding on a house and were highest bidder when a cash buyer came along and the seller took that offer. We didn’t get a chance to counter bid. Equally I once enquires about a viewing and was told it was sale agreed but deposit not paid yet so we could view/bid.

    I asked my solicitor about it. Once a house is sale agreed and a deposit is paid, the auctioneer can’t show the house to any new people seeking to view. Ideally a seller should not dump you for a higher offer but they can. Our solicitor said we could place a higher bid than the cash buyer and the auctioneer would be obliged to bring it to sellers attention but we didn’t bother.

    Also looked at a doer upper and had to go out with a tradesperson/engineer. The auctioneer wouldn’t accept a bid or booking deposit without it so we knew what we were getting into and weren’t going to go back and renegotiate the sale price on receipt of engineers report.

    Until contracts are signed either party can pull out at any time. The seller can dump you for another purchaser and you will have incurred legal and engineering costs. Equally if you weren’t happy with the report or a better house came on the market, you can dump the seller and move on.


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    #14
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Dolbhad wrote: »

    I asked my solicitor about it. Once a house is sale agreed and a deposit is paid, the auctioneer can’t show the house to any new people seeking to view. Ideally a seller should not dump you for a higher offer but they can. Our solicitor said we could place a higher bid than the cash buyer and the auctioneer would be obliged to bring it to sellers attention but we didn’t bother.

    That’s interesting, I wouldn’t have thought either of those things are legally required when sale agreed.


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    #15
    Dolbhad
    Registered Users Posts: 782 ✭✭✭Dolbhad


    Dav010 wrote: »
    That’s interesting, I wouldn’t have thought either of those things are legally required when sale agreed.

    It seems once the house is sale agreed and deposit paid, if someone who had viewed the house or had placed a bid and dropped out but decide to place a bid to beat the sale agreed price, that the auctioneer needs to bring it to the attention of the seller. Otherwise they cannot show the house to others.

    But unless your bid is significantly higher than the sale agreed or it’s just gone sale agreed and not much process is made, the seller may just stay with the current purchase.


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    #16
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Dolbhad wrote: »
    It seems once the house is sale agreed and deposit paid, if someone who had viewed the house or had placed a bid and dropped out but decide to place a bid to beat the sale agreed price, that the auctioneer needs to bring it to the attention of the seller. Otherwise they cannot show the house to others.

    But unless your bid is significantly higher than the sale agreed or it’s just gone sale agreed and not much process is made, the seller may just stay with the current purchase.

    Where are you getting that from?

    A “sale agreed” is no more than an informal agreement, until contracts are signed the deposit is fully refundable, the agreement has no legal standing.


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    #17
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    The property is on the market for a year and once you show an interest another person suddenly goes off getting a survey and another bidder appears on the scene!
    Make up your mind exactly how much you are willing to pay. If these"other" bidders go above that walk away. Don't be fooled into chasing bids


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    #18
    Dolbhad
    Registered Users Posts: 782 ✭✭✭Dolbhad


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Where are you getting that from?

    A “sale agreed” is no more than an informal agreement, until contracts are signed the deposit is fully refundable, the agreement has no legal standing.

    If you read my earlier post I did say until contracts are signed either party can withdraw. I was discussing what normally happens once sale agreed if another person wants to view the house or place a bid (so the purchaser who is sale agreed is guzumped). It was my solicitor who explained the common practice of what happens but as I also outlined, until contracts are signed, a seller can pull out of a sale and go with another purchaser.


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    #19
    hurleronditch
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭hurleronditch


    Dolbhad wrote: »
    It seems once the house is sale agreed and deposit paid, if someone who had viewed the house or had placed a bid and dropped out but decide to place a bid to beat the sale agreed price, that the auctioneer needs to bring it to the attention of the seller. Otherwise they cannot show the house to others.

    But unless your bid is significantly higher than the sale agreed or it’s just gone sale agreed and not much process is made, the seller may just stay with the current purchase.

    There is nothing of that sort that the agent “cannot” do!! Can not and should not are two totally different things. What you have described is the common understanding of what broadly should happen, but these things frequently get pushed and twisted. Agents broadly get an unwarranted bad name, and whilst most of them are straight up with prospective buyers these phantom rules you seem to be implying are in place simply are not. The agents role is to get the biggest price that is certain of execution for their client, the seller. Assuming as a potential buyer than an agent won’t go down the blindside at the last minute is nonsense.


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    #20
    Darc19
    Registered Users Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭Darc19


    Dolbhad wrote: »
    If you read my earlier post I did say until contracts are signed either party can withdraw. I was discussing what normally happens once sale agreed if another person wants to view the house or place a bid (so the purchaser who is sale agreed is guzumped). It was my solicitor who explained the common practice of what happens but as I also outlined, until contracts are signed, a seller can pull out of a sale and go with another purchaser.

    You are mixing up "gentleman's agreement" and legality.

    A decent estate agent will take it off the market when sale agreed, but there is absolutely nothing whatsoever to stop additional viewings and offers once the seller permits it.

    An agent must follow the directions of the seller (assuming the directions are permitted)

    I was selling an investment property a few years ago and the buyer kept coming up with excuses not to sign. So I instructed the agent to inform people that I'd be open to counter offers.

    Got a counter offer at the same price and took it. Original buyer kicked up, but was his own fault.


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    #21
    Dolbhad
    Registered Users Posts: 782 ✭✭✭Dolbhad


    Darc19 wrote: »
    You are mixing up "gentleman's agreement" and legality.

    A decent estate agent will take it off the market when sale agreed, but there is absolutely nothing whatsoever to stop additional viewings and offers once the seller permits it.

    An agent must follow the directions of the seller (assuming the directions are permitted)

    I was selling an investment property a few years ago and the buyer kept coming up with excuses not to sign. So I instructed the agent to inform people that I'd be open to counter offers.

    Got a counter offer at the same price and took it. Original buyer kicked up, but was his own fault.

    I am not mixing them up. I’m pretty clear about it.
    I’ve never said legally they have to do x, y and z but how it works in practice and how I’ve found in my experience on a few properties what has happened.


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    #22
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Dolbhad wrote: »
    I am not mixing them up. I’m pretty clear about it.
    I’ve never said legally they have to do x, y and z but how it works in practice and how I’ve found in my experience on a few properties what has happened.

    Just to be clear, which one of these are you claiming is correct, that going sale agreed places no legal restrictions on whether an auctioneer can continue to show the property to new bidders, or as you have claimed below, and in your first post, that the auctioneer cannot show the property to new bidders and has to brings bids to the vendor after it goes sale agreed.?
    Dolbhad wrote: »
    It seems once the house is sale agreed and deposit paid........ Otherwise they cannot show the house to others.
    .

    Dolbhad wrote: »
    I asked my solicitor about it. Once a house is sale agreed and a deposit is paid, the auctioneer can’t show the house to any new people seeking to view.

    To my knowledge, there is nothing to prohibit an auctioneer continuing to market/show the property up to the point where the contracts are signed. Though most do inform new bidders that the property is sale agreed and do not continue to show the house, that is not the same as saying they cannot continue new viewings.


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    #23
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    In practice ‘sale agreed’ means that the vender has chosen a preferred purchaser and no further bids are being invited and for that reason no further viewings are being carried out. This is not legally binding. It’s just a practice.


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    #24
    poker--addict
    Registered Users Posts: 1,702 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    And to accept a higher bid would usually net the auctioneer pennies compared to the cost of a bad rep if done frequently.

    😎



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    #25
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    poker--addict wrote: »
    And to accept a higher bid would usually net the auctioneer pennies compared to the cost of a bad rep if done frequently.

    Estate agents don’t accept or reject bids. The seller does. The estate agent may well have a practice of not soliciting bids, and late bids are not a good thing for the agent because they slow down the sale, but if he gets one nonetheless, he must make it known to the seller.


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    #26
    poker--addict
    Registered Users Posts: 1,702 ✭✭✭poker--addict


    Ok. Replace accept with seek. Same point. They don’t routinely like to go down the road. Of course it’s sellers decision.

    😎



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    #27
    Dolbhad
    Registered Users Posts: 782 ✭✭✭Dolbhad


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Just to be clear, which one of these are you claiming is correct, that going sale agreed places no legal restrictions on whether an auctioneer can continue to show the property to new bidders, or as you have claimed below, and in your first post, that the auctioneer cannot show the property to new bidders and has to brings bids to the vendor after it goes sale agreed.?






    To my knowledge, there is nothing to prohibit an auctioneer continuing to market/show the property up to the point where the contracts are signed. Though most do inform new bidders that the property is sale agreed and do not continue to show the house, that is not the same as saying they cannot continue new viewings.

    Having have a few of this circumstances myself and asking my solicitor on the house, what I was saying is:

    1. Obviously until contracts are signed by both parties, it’s not legally binding and anyone can withdraw from the sale.

    2. What happens it appears in practice is once sale agreed and deposit paid, the auctioneer does not show the house to new potential purchasers. As I outlined in a previous message, I was enquired about a viewing and auctioneer said it was sale agreed but deposit was not paid yet so he would show the house to us.

    3. Once deposit is paid, if someone who has Viewed the house or placed bids comes back with a further bid, they should bring the offer to the purchaser.

    As I also said, recently we were bidding on a house and were the highest bid until a cash buyer came along and they want sale agreed. We didn’t get the chance to place a further bid and would have as we had the money. Our solicitor said we can put in the offer and auctioneer would need to ask the seller so they want to take the offer. However we didn’t bother as I can understand a seller taking a cash buyer. We also lost a bid on a house even though we were the highest bid to a cash buyer who had a lower offer.

    To the original post I was responding to where they asked about engineers report and where the status was, I was highlighting what they could do which is put in another offer and ensure the seller is aware of it.


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    #28
    brisan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,242 ✭✭✭brisan


    poker--addict wrote: »
    Best advice so far.

    The auctioneer story could be true, but it does sound a bit weird. House for sale for over 1 year, you express an interest and someone else is already doing a survey on a house before it is sale agreed (unusual). And suddenly there is a 3rd person interested.

    Is it possible the auctioneer knows you REALLY like the property and may be working very well for the owner and not very well for you?

    I would look at another few properties, and dont get sucked into any nonsense just because you like a single property.


    The EA is only working for the vendor
    They have no interest in who buys the house once they can pay
    I would have serious reservations as to weather the other 2 bidders actually exist
    Put in a bid you are happy with
    If its not accepted walk away
    The other supposed bidders may have trouble finalizing finance drawdown so keep an eye on the property


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    #29
    brisan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,242 ✭✭✭brisan


    hurleronditch wrote: »
    There is nothing of that sort that the agent “cannot” do!! Can not and should not are two totally different things. What you have described is the common understanding of what broadly should happen, but these things frequently get pushed and twisted. Agents broadly get an unwarranted bad name, and whilst most of them are straight up with prospective buyers these phantom rules you seem to be implying are in place simply are not. The agents role is to get the biggest price that is certain of execution for their client, the seller. Assuming as a potential buyer than an agent won’t go down the blindside at the last minute is nonsense.

    I would not be certain of that


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    #30
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    brisan wrote: »
    I would have serious reservations as to weather the other 2 bidders actually exist

    What are these “serious reservations” based on?


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    #31
    brisan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,242 ✭✭✭brisan


    Dav010 wrote: »
    What are these “serious reservations” based on?

    The fact that the property sat idle for a year and then once the OP showed an interest 2 other interested parties arrived to the dance
    Surely you are not that naïve
    Ever heard of bidding against the wall in an auction room ??
    Ever heard of an underbidder being asked to put his bid in again as the highest bidder pulled out ,
    It can happen but with certain EAs it happens more often


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