Ethiopian Airlines Crash/ B737MAX grounding

Fritzbox · 19-11-2020 3:13pm

Deleted User wrote: »

visit Leeham news to read reports this week regarding the complications associated with tariffs for European operators irrespective of whether the plane is certified for Europe or not.

I have just visited the Leeham News website, I can't find information about the tariffs you speak about. What tariffs are they?

cnocbui · 19-11-2020 3:25pm

Fritzbox wrote: »

I have just visited the Leeham News website, I can't find information about the tariffs you speak about. What tariffs are they?

Nov. 16, 2020, © Leeham News: The European Union implemented tariffs Nov. 9 on Boeing and other US products in retaliation for the Trump Administration tariffs on Airbus and EU products.

By Scott Hamilton

This is the latest in the 16-year trade battle between the US and Europe over subsidies and tax breaks found to be illegal under World Trade Organization rules.

The US was authorized last year to impose tariffs on Airbus and other EU products. The Trump Administration initially imposed a 10% tariff on imported Airbus aircraft. A320/321s assembled at Airbus’ Mobile (AL) plant were exempt, even though major components were imported.

Trump increased the tariffs to 15% in March, just as the COVID-19 pandemic erupted worldwide. As a result, few Airbus airplanes were delivered into the US since then.

15% tariff

The EU imposed a 15% tariff on Boeing aircraft that will be imported into the EU. With recertification by the US Federal Aviation Administration of the 737 MAX coming as soon as this week, theoretically some 737s could be delivered this year, subject to tariffs. However, Europe’s EASA, the regulator, also must recertify the airplane. It previously said this could happen this month, but a definitive date hasn’t been announced.

https://leehamnews.com/2020/11/16/pontifications-eu-tariffs-on-boeing-airplanes-in-effect-60-at-risk/

trellheim · 19-11-2020 4:54pm

May have been posted already

https://www.aerotime.aero/rytis.beresnevicius/26453-easa-boeing-737-max-ungrounding-faa

European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) clarified its timeline when the European authority would un-ground the Boeing 737 MAX, following the Federal Aviation Administration‘s (FAA) un-grounding of the jet.

EASA indicated that it would first publish a Proposed Airworthiness Directive (AD), which is dedicated for the public to comment on the issue. The proposed AD is set to go out sometime in November 2020, an EASA spokesperson confirmed to AeroTime News.

However, public consultation will last 28 days. During the period, everyone can comment on the proposed AD. Subsequently, the authority will have to look and respond to the comments, and only then publish the final directive, essentially un-grounding the Boeing 737 MAX.

“So, the timing for that is somewhere around the end of 2020 or early-2021,” the spokesperson told AeroTime News in an email. “This publication will constitute the un-grounding for Europe from the EASA side.”

EASA joined Transport Canada (TC) and Brazil’s National Civil Aviation Agency of Brazil (ANAC) on clarifying that they would not follow the lead of the FAA, and instead, look at 737 MAX individually. The FAA un-grounded the Boeing 737 MAX on November 18, 2020, following a 20 month long period of no commercial activity for the aircraft.

smurfjed · 25-11-2020 6:28am

EASA issued this last night.

COLOGNE, November 24, 2020 – The European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) published a Proposed Airworthiness Directive (PAD) concerning the Boeing 737 MAX for public consultation, signalling its intention to approve the aircraft to return to Europe’s skies within a matter of weeks.

The Boeing 737 MAX was grounded by EASA on March 12, 2019, following two accidents with total loss of aircraft in which 346 people died. Intense work involving the dedicated attention from around 20 EASA experts over a period of around 20 months has now given EASA the confidence to declare the aircraft will be safe to fly again. The Federal Aviation Administration of the United States (FAA), State of Design for Boeing aircraft, published its final approval of the modified 737 MAX in the Federal Register on November 20, 2020.

It deals with.

ATA 22 – Auto Flight – Flight Control Computer Software – Installation / Test
ATA 27 – Flight Controls – Horizontal Stabilizer Trim Wire Bundle Routing – Modification / Stall Warning System Stick Shaker Circuit Breaker Buttons (Coloured Caps) – Installation
ATA 31 – Instruments – Operational Program Software – Updates
ATA 34 – Navigation – Angle of Attack Sensors – Test
– Airplane Flight Manual – Limitations / Operating Procedures – Amendment
– Master Minimum Equipment List – Amendment
– Operational Readiness Flight / Pilot Training / Flight Simulation Training Devices

cnocbui · 25-11-2020 3:23pm

Irish Steve wrote: »

The FAA may well be allowing them to fly, I will not be holding my breath on EASA falling in line with that just yet, and they may well require some more specific changes that the FAA have chosen to ignore for now.

I could have held my breath that long, without straining.

Hotblack Desiato · 25-11-2020 5:26pm

Hmmm nothing about the trim wheel workout. But that would open a can of worms with the NG.

Seems the AOA disagree software upgrade is now going to be free of charge anyway!

Shedite27 · 03-12-2020 3:33pm

In the news we all saw coming, Ryanair have ordered 75 more 737 Max planes

Shedite27 · 03-12-2020 3:52pm

Deleted User wrote: »

link please. google not showing any order from Ryanair yet.

They were discussing it on CNBC a half hour ago.

Story here: https://www.reuters.com/article/boeing-737max-ryanair/ryanair-agrees-to-buy-75-737-max-jets-in-boost-for-boeing-idUSASN000LIJ

Cookiemunster · 03-12-2020 4:19pm

From the horses mouth.

https://twitter.com/RyanairPress/status/1334517069807837185

Graham · 03-12-2020 5:44pm

No surprises there.

Somebody in Boeing sales is going to be saddle-sore for a while.

plodder · 03-12-2020 7:12pm

Graham wrote: »

No surprises there.

Somebody in Boeing sales is going to be saddle-sore for a while.

In return, I was thinking that Boeing got to write MOL's script for the Washington press conference today. It didn't sound like him to be so effusive about anything.

Still, both sides must be happy.

Graham · 03-12-2020 7:20pm

plodder wrote: »

Still, both sides must be happy.

Not convinced 'happy' would be the right description.

At this stage I'd guess Ryanair could sell off their fleet after a few years of operation and make a profit off the sale price.

If MOL was effusive that tells me all I need to know about the purchase price

theguzman · 03-12-2020 7:23pm

It wouldn't be like Ryanair to waste a good crisis would it, they got great deals back in 2002 after 9/11 and again now with the Covid-19.

Graham · 03-12-2020 7:26pm

Precisely.

I'd love to know how much Boeing paid Ryanair to take this batch off their hands. I can only imagine the purchase price reflected compensation for delayed deliveries too.

d51984 · 03-12-2020 8:46pm

You would not pay me to fly in one. Anyone the same?

California Dreamer · 03-12-2020 8:53pm

d51984 wrote: »

You would not pay me to fly in one. Anyone the same?

Would you say the same about the Airbus A330? One went into the Atlantic!

Would you say the same about other models of the 737? Remember British Midland?

Wouk did you say the same about the 777? Malaysian Airlines didn’t have much luck with 2 of theirs or British Airways that dinged the runway at Heathrow.

Speaking of Heathrow, would you say the same about the 787? Ethiopian had a smidge of a fire!

But yeh you should avoid the 737 Max!

Fritzbox · 03-12-2020 8:54pm

d51984 wrote: »

You would not pay me to fly in one. Anyone the same?

I'd fly in one tomorrow - if I was allowed.

d51984 · 03-12-2020 8:58pm

California Dreamer wrote: »

Would you say the same about the Airbus A330? One went into the Atlantic!

Would you say the same about other models of the 737? Remember British Midland?

Wouk did you say the same about the 777? Malaysian Airlines didn’t have much luck with 2 of theirs or British Airways that dinged the runway at Heathrow.

Speaking of Heathrow, would you say the same about the 787? Ethiopian had a smidge of a fire!

But yeh you should avoid the 737 Max!

Its just me personaly, Boeing cut corners and hundreds died. Profit came before saftey.

Graham · 03-12-2020 9:07pm

d51984 wrote: »

Its just me personaly, Boeing cut corners and hundreds died. Profit came before saftey.

Boeing will have been paid long before your protest absence.

The vast majority of the flying public will be completely oblivious to what they're flying on, where it came from or its history.

cnocbui · 03-12-2020 9:13pm

d51984 wrote: »

You would not pay me to fly in one. Anyone the same?

No. The issues have been addressed and I think are no longer of concern.

3d4life · 03-12-2020 9:41pm

cnocbui wrote: »

No. The issues have been addressed and I think are no longer of concern.

At least a second chance.

Mr B in deep deep Sh*t* if further issues

California Dreamer · 03-12-2020 9:49pm

Graham wrote: »

Boeing will have been paid long before your protest absence.

The vast majority of the flying public will be completely oblivious to what they're flying on, where it came from or its history.

If someone is getting to Playa De Finglas for €50 on a Ryanair Max I don't think many will complain!

California Dreamer · 03-12-2020 9:50pm

d51984 wrote: »

Its just me personaly, Boeing cut corners and hundreds died. Profit came before saftey.

You could say that about any airline or aircraft maker, or any company for that matter. Profits come first every time! Fact of life but I love your faux outrage!:)

Graham · 03-12-2020 9:51pm

California Dreamer wrote: »

If someone is getting to Playa De Finglas for €50 on a Ryanair Max I don't think many will complain!

You should consider a career in the diplomatic corps if you get bored with tourism marketing

California Dreamer · 03-12-2020 9:58pm

Graham wrote: »

You should consider a career in the diplomatic corps if you get bored with tourism marketing

Fairly pointless response but sure keep up the comedy classes! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

trellheim · 03-12-2020 10:08pm

did EASA certify the Max or what did I miss

Graham · 03-12-2020 10:10pm

California Dreamer wrote: »

Fairly pointless response but sure keep up the comedy classes! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

No offence intended, light hearted banter as we near the weekend.

FWIW I think we were both getting at the same thing. Most passengers don't know, don't care.

Fritzbox · 03-12-2020 10:10pm

Graham wrote: »

Precisely.

I'd love to know how much Boeing paid Ryanair to take this batch off their hands. I can only imagine the purchase price reflected compensation for delayed deliveries too.

Ryanair has ordered a further 75 Boeing 737 Max planes worth up to $9bn (£6.7bn), defying aviation industry pessimism over coronavirus and concerns that the public may avoid the model due to safety fears...

...The airline is likely to have negotiated a substantial saving on the planes. O’Leary said he obtained a “modest discount” on the fleet, as well as compensation for the delay in delivering the original order of the 737 Max, which was grounded after two crashes caused by its automated systems killed a total of 346 people.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/03/ryanair-orders-boeing-737-max-jets

That's about 120 million USD per plane - is that a cheap price? What's an A320NEO going for?

Graham · 03-12-2020 10:13pm

Fritzbox wrote: »

That's about 120 million USD per plane - is that a cheap price? What's an A320NEO going for?

Would that be 'worth' $120m at list price by any chance?

Added:

Yup.

Without having any special insider information, I can guarantee MOL isn't paying anything like $120m.

Fritzbox · 03-12-2020 10:33pm

Graham wrote: »

Would that be 'worth' $120m at list price by any chance?

Added:

Yup.

Without having any special insider information, I can guarantee MOL isn't paying anything like $120m.

I see.

the Grauniad being a little bit misleading.

So not only will the MAX be somewhat cheaper, the delivery time should also be much reduced - Ryanair is expected to take delivery in the spring?

Irish Steve · 03-12-2020 10:37pm

California Dreamer wrote: »

Would you say the same about the Airbus A330? One went into the Atlantic!

Would you say the same about other models of the 737? Remember British Midland?

Wouk did you say the same about the 777? Malaysian Airlines didn’t have much luck with 2 of theirs or British Airways that dinged the runway at Heathrow.

Speaking of Heathrow, would you say the same about the 787? Ethiopian had a smidge of a fire!

But yeh you should avoid the 737 Max!

The 330 that went into the Atlantic was servicable, the problem there was a very definite lack of appropriate crew training in how to deal with a known and documented event.

The Midland at Kegworth had a fully recoverable engine fault, but due to a combination of appalling crew resource management, and a lack of experience on a new version of the aircraft, the crew shut the wrong engine down.

The first Malaysian was lost in unexplained circumstances, but it's pretty clear that the airframe was not the problem. The second Malaysian was definitely not the airframe before it was fatally damaged by external military forces.

The BA at Heathrow was a swiss cheese scenario that was an unanticipated sequence of events that shut both engines down due to ice accretion in a filtration screen. It took a good while to work out what caused the accident, and it won't happen again.

The MAX issue was as a direct result of a lot of corners cut and regulatory failures that resulted in an almost hidden system that was effectively almost undocumented, was not covered adequately in type conversion training, and as installed, had the ability to make it impossible for the crew to recover control if actuated as a result of a single point failure, and it should NEVER have got through certification. That's a short version of the overall picture, but it makes the point clearly enough.

Boeing have had to make significant changes to the software, the airframe and the documentation and training of pilots, and Boeing are watching real time reports of every flight of the MAX fleet for an undetermined period of time.

EASA have not yet confirmed that they are happy to let them fly again, and it is altogether possible that they may require different or additional changes over and above the changes required by FAA, which they are fully entitled to do, and if that happens, it could further delay the return to service.

What happened with the MAX represents a very low point for both Boeing and the FAA, and it will be a very long time before trust in either organisation is fully restored.

The MAX should now be safe. The changes that have been made have taken a lot longer than was originally anticipated by anyone, which suggests that they found a lot more that needed looking at than was first thought.

We can only hope that they have now got it right, that said, given the number of people that are already watching, and will continue to be watching the evolution of the reborn MAX, nothing of significance will slip through the net for a considerable period of time, so in as much as any aircraft can be deemed safe, the MAX should now also be safe.

Graham · 03-12-2020 10:47pm

Fritzbox wrote: »

I see.

the Grauniad being a little bit misleading.

So not only will the MAX be somewhat cheaper, the delivery time should also be much reduced - Ryanair is expected to take delivery in the spring?

Not unique to any particular publication, most aircraft deals generally refer to value at list price.

The open secret is very few (if any) pay list price.

Noxegon · 03-12-2020 11:23pm

I'd be happy to board a MAX now – it's probably the most scrutinised aircraft in the history of aviation.

I'd also suggest that any further hull loss for the type shown to be a design flaw could be the end of Boeing. That's a fairly strong incentive to get things right.

Hotblack Desiato · 04-12-2020 12:30pm

California Dreamer wrote: »

Would you say the same about the Airbus A330? One went into the Atlantic!

Crew error.

Would you say the same about other models of the 737? Remember British Midland?

Crew error.

Wouk did you say the same about the 777? Malaysian Airlines didn’t have much luck with 2 of theirs

One shot down by a missile and the other deliberately flown into the ocean.

or British Airways that dinged the runway at Heathrow.

Getting warmer here, but the fuel/oil heat exchanger was redesigned to definitively resolve the issue.

Speaking of Heathrow, would you say the same about the 787? Ethiopian had a smidge of a fire!

Yes another "fine" Boeing product rushed into service despite obvious flaws to keep the accountants happy... Cost them a fortune to rectify but the lesson wasn't learned.

Hotblack Desiato · 04-12-2020 12:40pm

Irish Steve wrote: »

EASA have not yet confirmed that they are happy to let them fly again, and it is altogether possible that they may require different or additional changes over and above the changes required by FAA, which they are fully entitled to do, and if that happens, it could further delay the return to service.

Well on a quick layman's perusal it amounts to different coloured switch knobs and some differences in the updated flight manuals compared to the FAA's changes. The updated software version will be the same. I strongly suspect this severely curtails the ability of MCAS to repeatedly force nose-down trim.

EASA are a few weeks behind the FAA in the process but it seems inevitable that the MAX will be flying in European airspace before long.

Car99 · 04-12-2020 10:36pm

California Dreamer wrote: »

You could say that about any airline or aircraft maker, or any company for that matter. Profits come first every time! Fact of life but I love your faux outrage!:)

Every airline puts profits before safety ?

JimmyCorkhill · 05-12-2020 1:43pm

How many flights in total had the Boeing 737 Max planes flown? I dont mean the two planes who crashed but all Boeing 737 Max that were in operation. Or is it not possible to find that out?

The two planes that crashed was it ultimately due to pilot error due to being not adequately trained for this model? Or was it not possible to control the plane no matter what the pilot did when the plane kicked into some automation flight control?

I am a seriously nervous flyer and use Ryanair mainly when I do have to fly. The fact they are going with the Boeing 737 Max doesnt help my nervousness ðŸ˜€

L1011 · 05-12-2020 2:55pm

There was no element of pilot error at all, that was US based media trying to cover for a serious design flaw.

reforger · 05-12-2020 3:29pm

AA flew the Max with journalists on board a few days ago; its return to commercial service will be on 29 December.

https://www.travelandleisure.com/airlines-airports/first-boeing-737-max-flight-since-groundings?utm_source=instagram.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=travelandleisure_travelandleisure&utm_content=igstory_topstories&utm_term=2020120411

Damien360 · 05-12-2020 6:16pm

As it appears that the Max will fly, how did they sort out pilot certification? Is it still considered close enough to 737 to only require small additional certification or is it a new platform (the very thing they were trying to avoid) ?

Tenzor07 · 05-12-2020 7:13pm

Damien360 wrote: »

As it appears that the Max will fly, how did they sort out pilot certification? Is it still considered close enough to 737 to only require small additional certification or is it a new platform (the very thing they were trying to avoid) ?

Watch a training video on your Ipad probably!

Tenzor07 · 05-12-2020 7:21pm

JimmyCorkhill wrote: »

I am a seriously nervous flyer and use Ryanair mainly when I do have to fly. The fact they are going with the Boeing 737 Max doesnt help my nervousness &#55357;&#56832;

You'll be fine, the Max is the most heavily scrutinised aircraft in history...

Prior to the groundings, Norwegian Air were running a daily Max flight to the U.S from Dublin and Shannon without an issue, the aircraft flew perfectly every time..

FishOnABike · 05-12-2020 7:48pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

You'll be fine, the Max is the most heavily scrutinised aircraft in history...

Prior to the groundings, Norwegian Air were running a daily Max flight to the U.S from Dublin and Shannon without an issue, the aircraft flew perfectly every time..

That didn't make it any safer than the two that crashed. The failure mode that caused the crashes just wasn't triggered on those flights.

Tenzor07 · 05-12-2020 7:56pm

FishOnABike wrote: »

That didn't make it any safer than the two that crashed. The failure mode that caused the crashes just wasn't triggered on those flights.

I was addressing the OP's fear about flying on the Max and stating that the Aircraft is safe, particularly now with all the updates Boeing have made to the 737, I for one can't wait to travel on a Ryanair Max...

FishOnABike · 05-12-2020 9:42pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I was addressing the OP's fear about flying on the Max and stating that the Aircraft is safe, particularly now with all the updates Boeing have made to the 737, I for one can't wait to travel on a Ryanair Max...

. Agreed. The causes for the crashes will have been thoroughly examined by multiple air safety organisations and the fixes to the angle of attack sensors + MCAS and for other potential issues found (e.g. wiring routing) will have been thoroughly checked and the design and implementation thoroughly verified, again by multiple air safety regulatory organisations before the max is back in service.

Locker10a · 05-12-2020 11:51pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I for one can't wait to travel on a Ryanair Max...

Guessing you’re not very tall.... lol, or very unconcerned about leg room then :P :rolleyes:

Tenzor07 · 06-12-2020 7:07pm

Locker10a wrote: »

Guessing you’re not very tall.... lol, or very unconcerned about leg room then :P :rolleyes:

Meh, for a €10 flight to Santorini or some other destination I'm sure most people will be just fine with the new seats...

ForestFire · 19-12-2020 1:50pm

Well, I can hardly say I'm surprised.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55372499

I can understand with the amount of pressure and money involved to get this plane back in the skies, that something is going to give, either deliberately or even to a degree that subconsciously this could happen...(We ignore the COVID impact for the moment).

How many planes currently sit on the ground unused and how many orders are in the pipeline? What the value of this?

Even if this plane remains relatively safe in the air from this point, I think there is always going to be questions over the whole process of the original, and new certification.

How is the European certification going?
Are they relying on the FFA's (Boeings) certification?

Turbulent Bill · 19-12-2020 2:33pm

ForestFire wrote: »

Well, I can hardly say I'm surprised.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55372499

I can understand with the amount of pressure and money involved to get this plane back in the skies, that something is going to give, either deliberately or even to a degree that subconsciously this could happen...(We ignore the COVID impact for the moment).

How many planes currently sit on the ground unused and how many orders are in the pipeline? What the value of this?

Even if this plane remains relatively safe in the air from this point, I think there is always going to be questions over the whole process of the original, and new certification.

How is the European certification going?
Are they relying on the FFA's (Boeings) certification?

It's bonkers that the FAA permitted Boeing to take part in the recertification test sessions, especially given the MAX's history with self-certification.

I work in a different regulated industry, but the normal human factors practice is for the manufacturer to define the HF test protocol, have this approved by the regulator and then executed by an independent 3rd party (who has to stick rigidly to the protocol). It means that any unrealistic prompting won't get past protocol review. You can't expect a realistic test response if you prime the participants for exactly what will happen, and how to handle it.

banie01 · 19-12-2020 2:41pm

ForestFire wrote: »

Well, I can hardly say I'm surprised.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55372499

Surely there is criminal sanction due if this is true.
Not at all surprised, but Christ on a bike it just illustrates how far Boeing have strayed from what them great.

This isn't innovative, safety 1st engineering...

Ethiopian Airlines Crash/ B737MAX grounding

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