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Holiday - employers covid requirements

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    #32
    Batgurl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭Batgurl


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    You ask them, are you leaving the country on Holidays, it's pretty simple. We're in a pandemic, it's not case of being legally compliant, it's a pandemic where there is a Huge risk if people decide to travel abroad.
    Lie to your employer on this one at your peril if your going to be in close contact with other employees or customers on your return.

    Actually, it’s exactly a case of being legally compliant. A global pandemic doesn’t override employee rights and entitlements.

    I’ve yet to hear a good, clear, well thought out way to enforce such a policy, if the government announce a removal of quarantine restrictions.


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    #33
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,116 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Your muddling the department of health advice with government advice. The department of health advice is not to travel this year, that advice won't be changing. That is the advice I'm following for health and safety reasons.

    Employee rights have already been overridden and so have entitlements. An employee breaking company health and department of health advice will not have any success going legal with their employer.

    All the policys are evolving, I know if I ask the HSA they will advise me to not to let the employee back until satisfied they pose no risk to customers or employees as a result of their non-essential holiday travel.


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    #34
    Batgurl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭Batgurl


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    An employee breaking company health and department of health advice will not have any success going legal with their employer.

    I respectfully disagree.

    If anyone else reading this thread does have any well thought out, legally compliant, scalable ideas on how an employer can enforce this, I’d really love to hear it.


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    #35
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,116 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Batgurl wrote: »
    I respectfully disagree.

    You can disagree all you want, an employee won't be in the right here.

    You could bring in a policy that you have to notify HR if leaving the country. It might not be compliant but who in their right mind is going to challenge that policy and what judge will prosecute you for it.


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    #36
    Musefan
    Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭Musefan


    I wonder how it might work when a colleague has family coming over from a place with Covid 19 cases rising rapidly. They will be quarantining for 2 weeks with the colleague (not social distancing) but the colleague will be coming into work everyday?


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    #37
    Minier81
    Registered Users Posts: 623 ✭✭✭Minier81


    Musefan wrote: »
    I wonder how it might work when a colleague has family coming over from a place with Covid 19 cases rising rapidly. They will be quarantining for 2 weeks with the colleague (not social distancing) but the colleague will be coming into work everyday?

    That is an interesting question too. Our creche has asked that if we are away or have family visiting from abroad that the child does not attend for 2 weeks afterwards. I wonder if employers will do the same.

    Does anyone know if any of these points are included in the HSA return to the workplace risk assessment guidance?


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    #38
    bladespin
    Registered Users Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭bladespin


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    You ask them, are you leaving the country on Holidays, it's pretty simple. We're in a pandemic, it's not case of being legally compliant, it's a pandemic where there is a Huge risk if people decide to travel abroad.
    Lie to your employer on this one at your peril if your going to be in close contact with other employees or customers on your return.


    What happens if they refuse to answer?



    Just asking for the hell of it but it’s an interesting scenario, legally they’re not compelled to answer.

    Btw, advice from the HSA is that employment rights remain and are not overridden.


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    #39
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,116 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    You can't claim redundancy that's a fairly big right.

    If they refuse to answer what can you do besides dust off the Paddle of Truth.


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    #40
    bladespin
    Registered Users Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭bladespin


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    You can't claim redundancy that's a fairly big right.

    If they refuse to answer what can you do besides dust off the Paddle of Truth.

    I was just trying to put myself in your position, dealing with a situation like that. Wouldn’t fancy it.


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    #41
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,116 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    bladespin wrote: »
    I was just trying to put myself in your position, dealing with a situation like that. Wouldn’t fancy it.

    With the Virus it's a pretty impossible situation, I know well i've a Tom and John amougst the ranks, I can't control what they get up to outside work no doubt if there's a rave at the weekend one of them will be there.

    There's very little an employer can do besides encourage them to be vigilant but everyone is gone lax these days. I can see us being told to stay at home for a few weeks during winter and we try lockdown part 2, with mandatory quarantine for air travellers this time.
    Today's numbers give us a glimpse of what's about to happen if this so called green list appears and everyone decided to take government advice over the department of healths.

    https://twitter.com/higginsdavidw/status/1281283539598741509?s=20


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    #42
    Paulzx
    Registered Users Posts: 1,967 ✭✭✭Paulzx


    My employer (public service) has a mandatory written return to work declaration if you are on leave for 2 weeks or more. It requires you to declare whether you have left the country and also asks about whether you have any specific symptoms.

    Anyone that leaves the country to any destination that requires 14 days self isolation upon return will not be paid for that 14 days. It will either be unpaid leave or 14 days annual leave.

    I have no issue with this. In fact an across the board implementation of this including people getting social welfare will discourage people from travelling and would be extremely effective. Hitting people in the pocket generally makes them take heed.

    We've had to lock down the country for months to get to where we are. This shouldn't be fecked away so idiots can go on a 2 week holiday against health advice


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    #43
    bladespin
    Registered Users Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭bladespin


    Paulzx wrote: »
    My employer (public service) has a mandatory written return to work declaration if you are on leave for 2 weeks or more. It requires you to declare whether you have left the country and also asks about whether you have any specific symptoms.

    Anyone that leaves the country to any destination that requires 14 days self isolation upon return will not be paid for that 14 days. It will either be unpaid leave or 14 days annual leave.

    I have no issue with this. In fact an across the board implementation of this including people getting social welfare will discourage people from travelling and would be extremely effective. Hitting people in the pocket generally makes them take heed.

    We've had to lock down the country for months to get to where we are. This shouldn't be fecked away so idiots can go on a 2 week holiday against health advice

    It would be very difficult (if not impossible) to implement it without changing the law in some way though, it’s certainly not fair to employers making them the default travel police in a way.

    Aside: next week I’ll probably have to stay in a hotel that is currently packed with Americans today, not sure about next week, for me that’s as big a risk (or bigger) as a villa in Spain or similar. (If they’re still there, or I decide to commute).


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    #44
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,674 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    bladespin wrote: »
    It would be very difficult (if not impossible) to implement it without changing the law in some way though, it’s certainly not fair to employers making them the default travel police in a way.

    Aside: next week I’ll probably have to stay in a hotel that is currently packed with Americans today, not sure about next week, for me that’s as big a risk (or bigger) as a villa in Spain or similar. (If they’re still there, or I decide to commute).

    Employers aren't the travel police. But they are responsible for the h&s of their workers. They need to implement reasonable policies to stop a traveller putting their colleagues at risk. What is proposed here will do this.


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    #45
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,807 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    vandriver wrote: »
    I'd be inclined not to discuss your personal life with colleagues.

    This. They ask... “ahhh I don’t know, just recharging the batteries for a week, be glad of the break”.. before they get a chance to respond.... “and yourself, are you planning a break ? Jesus you’ve been flat out now here I guess for all to see, what about you ?”

    You are turning the conversation back to them..ON them.

    I remember filing in the form in a previous job... ‘holiday application’ it had a section ‘reason for requesting leave’... I always put.. “to be in receipt of contractually applicable annual leave entitlement .”

    Boss called me in asking why I’d been putting such vague details as to why I’m requesting AL... on enquiring why he wanted more information and more details... “well in case anything came up and we need to contact you, a meeting or whatever, and it’s good to be aware where you are.” My answer.. “strange, I’ll bear it in mind”... of course my AL request never altered... once you clock out, your time not theirs, you don’t need to justify a second of it to anybody. :cool:


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    #46
    bladespin
    Registered Users Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭bladespin


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Employers aren't the travel police. But they are responsible for the h&s of their workers. They need to implement reasonable policies to stop a traveller putting their colleagues at risk. What is proposed here will do this.

    It shifts responsibly from the government to the employer, from what I can find there’s little an employer can do really bar they break the law, that’s my point.


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    #47
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    bladespin wrote: »
    It shifts responsibly from the government to the employer, from what I can find there’s little an employer can do really bar they break the law, that’s my point.

    It is probably something which would have to be tested in the WRC, considering this is an unprecedented issue.

    I haven’t read this whole thread, but I assume we are talking only about people travelling back from countries on the green list to be published on 20/07? At present, the Government still advises only essential travel abroad and that is likely to continue until next year. Given what is going on, if an employee is aware of employer policy to be excluded for work during what is now a quarantine period, before they travel, I wouldn’t be too confident that a WRC hearing would rule in the employees favour, the employers claim that they are protecting employees welfare would be well founded and supported by HSE advice.

    But, it’s highly likely that the WRC will hear many Covid related disputes in the coming year.


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    #48
    witchgirl26
    Registered Users Posts: 2,069 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    Having just heard the ad on radio that clearly says "don't travel abroad & holiday at home this year", then I think it might be a while before we have a green list of countries.

    As for employers - when booking annual leave, we now have a question on the system that asks if it is foreign travel and then what country. It means they can provide some guidance about self-isolating when we get back depending on the advice at the time of travel. We can work from home so that's whats being recommended for those who are travelling for 2 weeks after they get back and not come near the office for those 2 weeks. To be honest, I think that's fair enough. The employer may not have a right as such to pry into what you do on your time off but they do have a duty of care to the other employees. It's striking a balance between those 2 things.


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    #49
    bladespin
    Registered Users Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭bladespin


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    With the Virus it's a pretty impossible situation, I know well i've a Tom and John amougst the ranks, I can't control what they get up to outside work no doubt if there's a rave at the weekend one of them will be there.
    Thanks DM, it's good to have insight from the other side of the desk.

    BTW, it's floating about that a sizable part of the 'travel related' infection relates to essential workers travelling from areas of light testing, how true I'm not sure, there are vested interests that would mean that we may not be told.
    Dav010 wrote: »
    It is probably something which would have to be tested in the WRC, considering this is an unprecedented issue.
    Thanks for the detailed response, I'm wondering about the employee who refuses to answer (yet doesn't travel), or the one who boasts a staycation yet ventures to Tenerife.

    For those all I can imagine an employer can do is a paperwork exercise.
    witchgirl26 wrote: »
    Having just heard the ad on radio that clearly says "don't travel abroad & holiday at home this year", then I think it might be a while before we have a green list of countries.

    As for employers - when booking annual leave, we now have a question on the system that asks if it is foreign travel and then what country. It means they can provide some guidance about self-isolating when we get back depending on the advice at the time of travel. We can work from home so that's whats being recommended for those who are travelling for 2 weeks after they get back and not come near the office for those 2 weeks. To be honest, I think that's fair enough. The employer may not have a right as such to pry into what you do on your time off but they do have a duty of care to the other employees. It's striking a balance between those 2 things.

    Agree, that's a very proactive response, I imagine my own employer would be similar (hopefully), they're very good IMO, though a little lax in some areas, wouldn't normally be a concern but these are the strange times when these questions arise.


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