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Social Welfare Claim Refused

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  • 08-07-2020 2:04pm
    #1
    mlem123
    Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭


    Hi all,

    Not my situation but a family member.

    They're 22 and just finished college (thesis submitted a couple of weeks ago).

    They submitted a claim as they can't get work at the moment. They worked all through college in retail but gave it up for their final year so they could concentrate on studies. They worked part time during terms but basically full time during the holidays.

    The problem is although classes finished, essays handed in and thesis done they were turned down due to being still in full time education. They have one exam left but it has been postponed until Sept (no date yet) as it has to be in person as it is a practical exam. Because of this one exam with no date they were turned down for any kind of payment.

    Their parents are retired and my relative is quite upset. They're trying to get a job but the climate isn't helping. Is there a way this could be appealed? Saying they're still in full time education is a laugh really. TIA


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    #2
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    mlem123 wrote: »
    Hi all,

    Not my situation but a family member.

    They're 22 and just finished college (thesis submitted a couple of weeks ago).

    They submitted a claim as they can't get work at the moment. They worked all through college in retail but gave it up for their final year so they could concentrate on studies. They worked part time during terms but basically full time during the holidays.

    The problem is although classes finished, essays handed in and thesis done they were turned down due to being still in full time education. They have one exam left but it has been postponed until Sept (no date yet) as it has to be in person as it is a practical exam. Because of this one exam with no date they were turned down for any kind of payment.

    Their parents are retired and my relative is quite upset. They're trying to get a job but the climate isn't helping. Is there a way this could be appealed? Saying they're still in full time education is a laugh really. TIA

    But they are still in education. It's a correct if clinical, decision. Exam still too take, hasn't passed the course yet.

    It's no different to thousands of leaving cert kids rocking up after last exam..

    Don't misunderstand me here, I sympathise with this person. Between a rock and a hard place really. It happens. My now wife graduated in 2008 after having to repeat get final year. Mates got it in 2007 and got jobs. Nothing for my wife, even interviews dried up after a few months.

    Even later in life she wasexcluded from certain courses as she never worked so was never made redundant and obviously didn't have experience on the CV.

    No harm to appeal but that won't go through until after September anyway


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    #3
    0xzmro3n4y7lb5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 686 ✭✭✭0xzmro3n4y7lb5


    The only thing I can advise is to put pressure on local TD's I don't know if this will help.

    They are well aware students depended on summer jobs, it's ridiculous cutting the pandemic payment for part-timers of which the majority would have worked full time in the summer.

    There is a social welfare appeals department depending on the payment they applied for but it takes best part of a year.

    https://www.gov.ie/en/service/ce66b1-how-to-appeal-a-decision-about-your-social-welfare-claim/

    I'd also advise perhaps contacting the Community Welfare Officer for a supplementary payment if they have zero income

    https://www.gov.ie/en/service/36e514-supplementary-welfare-allowance/

    The other thing is the student could unregister and reregister come normally used for illness or special circumstances.

    Hope they get sorted.


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    #4
    antix80
    Registered Users Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭antix80


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    But they are still in education. It's a correct if clinical, decision. Exam still too take, hasn't passed the course yet.

    It's no different to thousands of leaving cert kids rocking up after last exam..

    There is a difference, as school leavers are disqualified for 3 months after leaving school.
    College students are disqualified between academic years. The op's friend's situation seems a bit different - if they sat their summer exams they'd probably have a letter from the college saying they were out of full-time education. However, this repeat exam in September means the student is still enrolled and still has an outstanding exam relating to the current academic year.. they're still in full-time education until the exam is done.


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    #5
    mlem123
    Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭mlem123


    antix80 wrote: »
    There is a difference, as school leavers are disqualified for 3 months after leaving school.
    College students are disqualified between academic years. The op's friend's situation seems a bit different - if they sat their summer exams they'd probably have a letter from the college saying they were out of full-time education. However, this repeat exam in September means the student is still enrolled and still has an outstanding exam relating to the current academic year.. they're still in full-time education until the exam is done.

    It's not even a repeat exam, it's a practical exam that was supposed to take place at the end of April but was postponed due to the pandemic. All they've been told is that it will happen in September but they don't even have a date yet.


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    #6
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    antix80 wrote: »
    There is a difference, as school leavers are disqualified for 3 months after leaving school.
    College students are disqualified between academic years. The op's friend's situation seems a bit different - if they sat their summer exams they'd probably have a letter from the college saying they were out of full-time education. However, this repeat exam in September means the student is still enrolled and still has an outstanding exam relating to the current academic year.. they're still in full-time education until the exam is done.

    So, no different


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    #7
    antix80
    Registered Users Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭antix80


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    So, no different

    The result in this case is no different but your reasoning isn't correct.


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    #8
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    antix80 wrote: »
    The result in this case is no different but your reasoning isn't correct.

    It is because I was only speaking about this scenario. I didn't bring a single other college graduate into the equation.


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    #9
    Madeoface
    Registered Users Posts: 361 ✭✭Madeoface


    Ariah Tiny Porter wrote: »
    The only thing I can advise is to put pressure on local TD's I don't know if this will help.

    They are well aware students depended on summer jobs, it's ridiculous cutting the pandemic payment for part-timers of which the majority would have worked full time in the summer.

    ........

    This sums up all that is wrong with Ireland. Put pressure on a local TD to overturn a correct decision? They are meant to be the strategic thinkers to help push the economy along etc - but no - take time out to write an 'ah Jaisus young Billy is a fine lad, plays hurling with XXX, can ya see what ya can do?' type letter.

    Also why is it ridiculous to cut an emergency support payment for people who ended up getting substantially more from that (paid for by the taxpayer) than when they were working? It is tapered- not halted. The money does not fall from the sky.....it is either borrowed or taken from Peter to pay Paul in the welfare budget (supported by PRSI etc).


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    #10
    0xzmro3n4y7lb5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 686 ✭✭✭0xzmro3n4y7lb5


    Madeoface wrote: »
    Ariah Tiny Porter wrote: »
    The only thing I can advise is to put pressure on local TD's I don't know if this will help.

    They are well aware students depended on summer jobs, it's ridiculous cutting the pandemic payment for part-timers of which the majority would have worked full time in the summer.

    ........

    This sums up all that is wrong with Ireland. Put pressure on a local TD to overturn a correct decision? They are meant to be the strategic thinkers to help push the economy along etc - but no - take time out to write an 'ah Jaisus young Billy is a fine lad, plays hurling with XXX, can ya see what ya can do?' type letter.

    Also why is it ridiculous to cut an emergency support payment for people who ended up getting substantially more from that (paid for by the taxpayer) than when they were working? It is tapered- not halted. The money does not fall from the sky.....it is either borrowed or taken from Peter to pay Paul in the welfare budget (supported by PRSI etc).

    Why shouldn't the electorate lobby representatives when every business sector in the country is.

    It's important that TD's (not our brightest) are aware of the issues facing people.

    Substantially more is not €150.

    Spend on people, not on business.


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    #11
    jmlad2020
    Registered Users Posts: 691 ✭✭✭jmlad2020


    I had with to wait 3 months after finishing as I recall.

    Jobs or no jobs gotta wait.


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    #12
    lughildanach
    Registered Users Posts: 150 ✭✭lughildanach


    This could be appealed. There are two questions:

    1. Does the student disqualification apply, ie is the person attending a full-time course of education. It is arguable that they are no longer attending, as they are just waiting for an exam to be finished.
    2. Is the person available for full-time employment. This should be easier to fulfill, provided that the current commitment does not clash with the search for full-time work.

    I would appeal. Nothing to lose.


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    #13
    dartboardio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,436 ✭✭✭dartboardio


    It can be appealed.

    My boyfriend got it awarded, when he provided a letter from the college and proof he had done his last exam/last day of class on x, y date and hes available for full time employment


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    #14
    Pronto63
    Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭Pronto63


    dartboardio wrote: »
    It can be appealed.

    My boyfriend got it awarded, when he provided a letter from the college and proof he had done his last exam/last day of class on x, y date and hes available for full time employment

    The OP’s friend has not passed their final exam and therefore has not finished the course. Technically they are still in full time education.

    For all we know they could be at home practicing/studying for this practical exam for 18 hours a day.

    As one poster said it may seem a cold clinical decision but these rules are there to be fair to everyone.

    I completely agree that TD’s should be thinking about the “big” picture and not about Billy Joe's payment or the pothole outside your house!


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    #15
    Dodge
    Registered Users Posts: 10,179 ✭✭✭✭Dodge


    No amount of TDs will see a correct decision overturned either

    The letters are received and they’ll get a response back ‘Ms M applied on x date and because of Y reason was deemed ineligible’ or similar. TDs don’t put pressure on as such, they ask a question and they get an answer. The letter is usually written by someone in the TDs office and the answer is supplied by a junior civil servant

    Complete waste of time


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    #16
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Dodge wrote: »
    No amount of TDs will see a correct decision overturned either

    The letters are received and they’ll get a response back ‘Ms M applied on x date and because of Y reason was deemed ineligible’ or similar. TDs don’t put pressure on as such, they ask a question and they get an answer. The letter is usually written by someone in the TDs office and the answer is supplied by a junior civil servant

    Complete waste of time

    Absolutely agree. I think that there’s still a certain amount of confusion about how SW operates. Some people seem to imagine that the staff administer their application for a payment completely randomly, based on their own opinion or mood on any given day, instead of the reality which is that there’s hard and fast legislation laid down to enable them to come to the correct decision quickly and fairly FOR EVERYONE.
    The idea that a TD could or would wade in and instruct SW to break the law by ignoring the criteria is ludicrous.
    As you say, a staffer writes on headed paper to the section and unless there’s been a total change in circumstances for the applicant since the decision, and there’s evidence of same, the decision stays the same.
    But the applicant/voter will have the illusion that the TD himself tried day and night to fix it for them and will vote accordingly in the next election.


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    #17
    0xzmro3n4y7lb5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 686 ✭✭✭0xzmro3n4y7lb5


    If people are commenting on my comment on contacting a TD I did not state that because this was a routine SW application.

    This person is in a situation which is a result of the Covid crisis. The crisis has caused many fault lines and it is important that TD's are alerted to the fact that someone who would usually be available for work is unavailable because of the delaying of exams due to covid. They are in a situation where they have zero income.

    This is something that needs to be brought up in the Dail for example today Mary Lou was lobbying for extra maternity leave I think people that have zero income due to covid like the op should have Td's representing for them not parents that already have supports.


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    #18
    Dodge
    Registered Users Posts: 10,179 ✭✭✭✭Dodge


    The difference there was that the new PUP legislation was hastily put together and omitted those returning from maternity leave. It was an oversight

    The jobseekers legislation has been tested. Sure there are people who it will effect adversely but a TD asking a PQ or writing to the minister based on one case will do nothing.

    By all means go for it OP. I’m just pointing out to keep your expectations low


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    #19
    0xzmro3n4y7lb5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 686 ✭✭✭0xzmro3n4y7lb5


    Dodge wrote: »
    The difference there was that the new PUP legislation was hastily put together and omitted those returning from maternity leave. It was an oversight

    The jobseekers legislation has been tested. Sure there are people who it will effect adversely but a TD asking a PQ or writing to the minister based on one case will do nothing.

    By all means go for it OP. I’m just pointing out to keep your expectations low

    But it’s not one case, this is one person on a board, there’s many more in their class and who knows how many more across the country in the same predicament.

    If TDS think they can afford to pay €78 million to parents who already receive welfare for their children for extra maternity paternity leave then they should be aware of a generation of university students who have access to zero income because of an administration decision to delay an exam to an unknown date.

    No one should be on zero income that’s why we have supplementary welfare


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    #20
    Dodge
    Registered Users Posts: 10,179 ✭✭✭✭Dodge


    Ariah Tiny Porter wrote: »

    No one should be on zero income that’s why we have supplementary welfare

    Has the OP’s family member applied for supplementary welfare allowance?

    BTW lots of people aren’t eligible for welfare payments for a variety of reasons

    I should point out I wasn’t commenting on the case originally. Just the futility of asking a TD to make representations on her behalf


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    #21
    StackSteevens
    Closed Accounts Posts: 873 ✭✭✭StackSteevens


    Ariah Tiny Porter wrote: »

    But it’s not one case, this is one person on a board, there’s many more in their class and who knows how many more across the country in the same predicament.

    If TDS think they can afford to pay €78 million to parents who already receive welfare for their children for extra maternity paternity leave then they should be aware of a generation of university students who have access to zero income because of an administration decision to delay an exam to an unknown date.

    Go easy on the melodramatic hyperbole there or you'll give yourself a coronary!

    Note that TD don't pay the €78 million, we, the taxpayers of Ireland, do. They just decide whether or not to impose the cost on us. And, given that the clamour for paying it has come from all sides of the House, it would be a very brave and foolhardy TD who would dare to oppose it.


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    #22
    0xzmro3n4y7lb5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 686 ✭✭✭0xzmro3n4y7lb5


    StackSteevens wrote: »
    Go easy on the melodramatic hyperbole there or you'll give yourself a coronary!

    Note that TD don't pay the €78 million, we, the taxpayers of Ireland, do. They just decide whether or not to impose the cost on us. And, given that the clamour for paying it has come from all sides of the House, it would be a very brave and foolhardy TD who would dare to oppose it.

    You don’t need to be rude I’m just pointing out the avenues available to the op.

    Just because of my name you’ve made assumptions about me.

    I paid tax all my life. I’m retired now caring for a daughter who became homeless because of underlying conditions and triggered by an assault.


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    #23
    repulsebay321
    Registered Users Posts: 44 ✭repulsebay321


    mlem123 wrote: »
    Hi all,

    Not my situation but a family member.

    They're 22 and just finished college (thesis submitted a couple of weeks ago).

    They submitted a claim as they can't get work at the moment. They worked all through college in retail but gave it up for their final year so they could concentrate on studies. They worked part time during terms but basically full time during the holidays.

    The problem is although classes finished, essays handed in and thesis done they were turned down due to being still in full time education. They have one exam left but it has been postponed until Sept (no date yet) as it has to be in person as it is a practical exam. Because of this one exam with no date they were turned down for any kind of payment.

    Their parents are retired and my relative is quite upset. They're trying to get a job but the climate isn't helping. Is there a way this could be appealed? Saying they're still in full time education is a laugh really. TIA

    There are a lot more jobs now, in restaurants, hotels and shops.


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    #24
    0xzmro3n4y7lb5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 686 ✭✭✭0xzmro3n4y7lb5


    repulsebay321 wrote: »
    There are a lot more jobs now, in restaurants, hotels and shops.

    My best friend was working for Ireland's largest hotel chain in a junior managerial role, she was let go onto the pup payment not even the furlough thing.

    She hasn't heard a word from them. She's applied for a load of jobs from stacking shelves to managerial roles and she got nothing.

    They've been opened throughout with homeless/ayslum residents and hotel guests.


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    #25
    Balagan1
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Balagan1


    jmlad2020 wrote: »
    I had with to wait 3 months after finishing as I recall.

    Jobs or no jobs gotta wait.

    As has been previously mentioned in this thread, the three month await applies to those finishing secondary school, not those finishing a university course.


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    #26
    StackSteevens
    Closed Accounts Posts: 873 ✭✭✭StackSteevens


    Ariah Tiny Porter wrote: »
    You don’t need to be rude I’m just pointing out the avenues available to the op.

    Just because of my name you’ve made assumptions about me.

    I paid tax all my life. I’m retired now caring for a daughter who became homeless because of underlying conditions and triggered by an assault.

    The only assumption that I made was that judging from the post that I responded to, you appear to be a bit hysterical. Your response doesn't do very much to allay my suspicion. To which I'll add that I didn't even notice your moniker until you drew my attention to it. So kindly calm down.


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    #27
    Balagan1
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Balagan1


    mlem123 wrote: »
    Hi all,

    Not my situation but a family member.

    They're 22 and just finished college (thesis submitted a couple of weeks ago).

    They submitted a claim as they can't get work at the moment. They worked all through college in retail but gave it up for their final year so they could concentrate on studies. They worked part time during terms but basically full time during the holidays.

    The problem is although classes finished, essays handed in and thesis done they were turned down due to being still in full time education. They have one exam left but it has been postponed until Sept (no date yet) as it has to be in person as it is a practical exam. Because of this one exam with no date they were turned down for any kind of payment.

    Their parents are retired and my relative is quite upset. They're trying to get a job but the climate isn't helping. Is there a way this could be appealed? Saying they're still in full time education is a laugh really. TIA

    Definitely should appeal it as it is the pandemic and only the pandemic that has placed them in this position.


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    #28
    antix80
    Registered Users Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭antix80


    Balagan1 wrote: »
    Definitely should appeal it as it is the pandemic and only the pandemic that has placed them in this position.

    The covid payment exists and even covers fulltime students who lost their jobs - it doesn't cover people who left work.

    They always said the covid payment was as fair as they could make it.. It doesn't cover under 18, even though some may have been working. Same for over 66.

    Sadly there were no provisions for "was working, but left to be a fulltime student but college is closed so i should get something".. Surprisingly enough.


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    #29
    Balagan1
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Balagan1


    antix80 wrote: »
    The covid payment exists and even covers fulltime students who lost their jobs - it doesn't cover people who left work.

    They always said the covid payment was as fair as they could make it.. It doesn't cover under 18, even though some may have been working. Same for over 66.

    Sadly there were no provisions for "was working, but left to be a fulltime student but college is closed so i should get something".. Surprisingly enough.

    The person referred to in the original post is 22 years old and left work a year ago to concentrate on 3rd year of college. Without the pandemic, they would have done their final exam by now but it has been postponed indefinitely because of the pandemic. The reason given for refusing them Jobseekers Allowance is that they are still seen as not having finished college and therefore not available for full time employment. The ironic thing is that ithe person has finished and handed in their thesis but the conditions for awarding JSA are such that if all exams were done but they were still working on their thesis they would be seen as having finished full time education and be eligible for JSA. This is not a question about a covid payment at all but about being turned down for JSA because of the postponement of the final exam solely due to the pandemic,


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    #30
    repulsebay321
    Registered Users Posts: 44 ✭repulsebay321


    Balagan1 wrote: »
    The person referred to in the original post is 22 years old and left work a year ago to concentrate on 3rd year of college. Without the pandemic, they would have done their final exam by now but it has been postponed indefinitely because of the pandemic. The reason given for refusing them Jobseekers Allowance is that they are still seen as not having finished college and therefore not available for full time employment. The ironic thing is that ithe person has finished and handed in their thesis but the conditions for awarding JSA are such that if all exams were done but they were still working on their thesis they would be seen as having finished full time education and be eligible for JSA. This is not a question about a covid payment at all but about being turned down for JSA because of the postponement of the final exam solely due to the pandemic,

    I am a student, on summer holidays, over age 24. I was not working before the pandemic. I am currently on Jobseekers. I had to provide proof of my last exam date and they paid me starting the day AFTER my last exam.

    I spoke to several CWOs about being paid from the date that I actually started looking for full-time work, which was in mid-March when my university shut down. They told me that I can appeal the decision, but it will take many months and I should probably just accept the payments from my last exam date instead. As I needed the money quickly, this is what I did. I suspect that I could still appeal for backpay as I kept evidence of my job search from Mid March.

    However, if I were to appeal for back payments, the CWO also wanted a letter from my college programme director that I was in fact available for full-time work on account of the university closure. I really didn't want to get that documentation from my university as I'm sure they would have looked down on me for asking. I'm in a very intensive professional course so it is frowned upon to work and study during it. Perhaps for a normal undergrad degree, I would have got that letter no problem.

    All of this is to say, I think the OP could appeal. But it isn't straightforward as there is no precedent in the current legislation to award jobseekers payments to students under the age of 24 during their summer holidays.


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