HEP to AO

Woopsey · 13-03-2018 5:54pm #1

Hoping someone can answer. If a newly promoted HEO is offered an AO post what could they expect for pay and leave. The circulars are not clear on the matter.

Riskymove · 13-03-2018 6:03pm

Woopsey wrote: »

Hoping someone can answer. If a newly promoted HEO is offered an AO post what could they expect for pay and leave. The circulars are not clear on the matter.

in terms of pay you usually don't start lower than your current level but this might be different if you are newly appointed and still in probation

Cakerbaker · 13-03-2018 6:10pm

If you do move on your HEO salary you may have to “mark time” (I think that what it’s called). It means you won’t get an increment until the AO salary you would have started on catches up with the HEO Salary you are on. It may be worth checking out, a friend of mine nearly got caught out by this last year and ended up staying a HEO instead of taking the AO position. I think the reason is moving between HEO and AO isn’t seen as a promotion so is treated differently to moving between EO and AO. Now I’m not 100% sure about this but just thought I’d mention it as something to check out.

billyhead · 13-03-2018 9:37pm

Just curious as to why you would consider going from HEO to AO. For promotional prospects I think being a HEO and managing staff would look better then focusing solely on policy work. HEOs also carry out policy work aswell. Also the leave allowance is more for HEO

Woopsey · 13-03-2018 10:50pm

billyhead wrote: »

Just curious as to why you would consider going from HEO to AO. For promotional prospects I think being a HEO and managing staff would look better then focusing solely on policy work. HEOs also carry out policy work aswell. Also the leave allowance is more for HEO

If you go on the AO scale but continue to have annual increments you'd hit the top of the scale earlier.

billyhead · 14-03-2018 9:14am

Didn't know that. I would rather the variety in management work and possibly policy work tbh.

cee_jay · 14-03-2018 10:27am

You go across at the same salary scale as you are currently on - you do "mark time" but that just means your increment date is thrown out slightly depending on the length of time you had spent in the HEO grade if I can remember correctly.

billyhead wrote: »

Just curious as to why you would consider going from HEO to AO. For promotional prospects I think being a HEO and managing staff would look better then focusing solely on policy work. HEOs also carry out policy work aswell. Also the leave allowance is more for HEO

As Woopsey said, you reach the top of the scale faster - your increments are larger.
Also, it would depend on the HEO role you are in - a lot of HEO roles can be operational, and do not have the policy work - so depending on someone's career to date, they may have had a lot of staff management and operational experience from the EO grade, and would like to gain the policy experience.

The_Conductor · 14-03-2018 10:28am

billyhead wrote: »

Didn't know that. I would rather the variety in management work and possibly policy work tbh.

Depends entirely on the Department- but in many cases- AOs are now treated in a similar manner to HEOs (complete with staff management and admin stuff to deal with).

Sir Ophiuchus · 14-03-2018 2:18pm

Although starting HEOs are paid 50% more, and paid more right until the top of the scale.

/standard gripe

The_Conductor · 14-03-2018 2:31pm

Sir Ophiuchus wrote: »

Although starting HEOs are paid 50% more, and paid more right until the top of the scale.

/standard gripe

However- presumably a HEO is a career civil servant who has already been around for X number of years- whereas an AO, traditionally, was a grad just out of college......... (to say nothing about how traditionally they were two entirely different roles- which doesn't really cut muster any longer- because its just not true).

AO, traditionally, was fast-track to AP- and a good entry into management in the civil service- whereas the HEO had to work their way up.........

If there was open recruitment @ HEO level- it would be a legitimate gripe- and there most probably will be before long- however, for now, its a promotion grade. HEO is the only promotion only grade left (that is the only grade without outside recruitment- though anyone can go for it- occasionally you do hear of COs getting HEO- and fair play to do them for doing so).

If HEOs and AOs are analogous with one another- and arguably they are- it would make perfect sense to do away with any salary scale and other differences which exist between them.

Sir Ophiuchus · 14-03-2018 5:50pm

All good points.

It's just frustrating to hear 'it's a graduate recruitment grade' when even in interdepartmental training they're telling us that well over half of new AOs have Master's degrees or PhDs and there are people with years of experience (I know people who were solicitors and union officials). Median age is about thirty I'd say.

It also sucks when I know AOs doing HEO jobs, when you see all sorts of secondments/positions advertised as AO/HEO (meaning you keep your salary, meaning you can be paid far less than a HEO for literally the same job), and when a PO tells us in training 'I expect far more of my AOs than my HEOs'.

I enjoy my work and my role, but it's a weird and irritating disparity.

Edit: Ah, yes! The other major gripe over 'HEO is a promotion grade'. AOs (except in Revenue, which does its own thing) are barred from HEO competitions because the grades are equivalent. So, equivalent enough to bar AOs from HEO comps and for them to be eligible for the same internal jobs, but not equivalent enough to pay them the same.

Sir Ophiuchus · 14-03-2018 5:57pm

In an attempt to actually reply to the OP and help with their issue: you'll need to get an official answer to be sure, rather than anything we can provide you.

If you do keep your HEO salary on the AO scale, that will work out really really well for you. I know someone for whom that happened, so it can happen, but I don't know the circumstances.

Sir Ophiuchus · 14-03-2018 6:04pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

More often than not- irrespective of the grade people are coming into the civil service at- they are exceptionally qualified- which I imagine can be a little daunting for some of the old school APs and POs who are still around- when at staff meetings their COs and EOs- hold vastly more qualifications than they do- and often, have come in with a lot of private sector experience to boot.

Oh, absolutely. I know three COs with PhDs at the moment. It's not really a 'qualifications' argument so much as a grade parity one, but we can certainly agree that the civil service is strange that way.

job seeker · 14-03-2018 6:28pm

Sorry for such a quistion but what's a HEO?

The_Conductor · 14-03-2018 6:31pm

job seeker wrote: »

Sorry for such a quistion but what's a HEO?

Higher Executive Officer- its the grade that's between EO and AP (as is AO)- and typically would have a significant number of staff reporting to him/her whereas an AO typically might work alone or with very limited staff reporting to them.

billyhead · 14-03-2018 7:00pm

During the recruitment embargo many junior staff up-skilled and obtained 3rd level qualifications. The CS should take cognizance of staff with academic qualifications but it doesn't as the interviews for promotion are all based on competencies. I have also come across a CO with a PHD who was lecturing college students. I know of a CO whom got promoted to HEO but had considerable private sector management experience which helped. I presume none of this making tie nonsense applies to staff promoted to a HEO grade?

MrsBean · 04-07-2020 3:03pm

Would anyone have any more clarity on this?

Recently appointed HEO in an internal comp. On an AO panel and they’re about 5 away from me on the order of merit so might hear in a couple of weeks.

I know of a heo who left our department via the AO comp last year. She got to keep her salary but the annual leave entitlements were reduced to AO.

As I won’t have had a year’s probation under my belt I don’t know if the same will apply for me and can’t find out for sure/don’t know where to ask.

The_Conductor · 04-07-2020 3:25pm

AO is external recruitment- so there wouldn't be any issue in taking AO off the panel.
Recently (about a year ago) there was an agreement with the union re: starting salary for pre-existing civil servants, when applying on open panels- in short- you join on the salary point closest to your current salary point (without taking a reduction in pay- in general this means a small increase in gross salary- typically of 500-600 per annum, depending on how the salary points fall)- and you loose seniority (for higher scales) and revert down to number of days annual leave (appropriate for your length of tenure across all grades).

Its reasonably straight forward- and a relief for many pre-existing civil servants- who were turning down open panel offers left right and centre because of the perceived unfairness of marking time rules etc.

The_Conductor · 04-07-2020 3:28pm

billyhead wrote: »

During the recruitment embargo many junior staff up-skilled and obtained 3rd level qualifications. The CS should take cognizance of staff with academic qualifications but it doesn't as the interviews for promotion are all based on competencies. I have also come across a CO with a PHD who was lecturing college students. I know of a CO whom got promoted to HEO but had considerable private sector management experience which helped. I presume none of this making tie nonsense applies to staff promoted to a HEO grade?

I had a TCO who passed the bar exams and was waiting for a specific post to come up in her field. She was very probably the most intelligent and useful person I have ever encountered in my 20 years in the civil service- and while we appreciated her greatly, she was completely and utterly wasted as a TCO.

The teaching profession are very probably the only public servants who have figured how to monetise 3rd level qualifications- the civil service most certainly have not.

MrsBean · 04-07-2020 3:44pm

Thank you for the info, that is indeed a relief and it appears I just got really lucky with how the cookie has crumbled.

I spent the time and money completing a post grad last year in order to be eligible for the AO comp (as I only had a level 7) and I am glad it has worked out.

The_Conductor wrote: »

AO is external recruitment- so there wouldn't be any issue in taking AO off the panel.
Recently (about a year ago) there was an agreement with the union re: starting salary for pre-existing civil servants, when applying on open panels- in short- you join on the salary point closest to your current salary point (without taking a reduction in pay- in general this means a small increase in gross salary- typically of 500-600 per annum, depending on how the salary points fall)- and you loose seniority (for higher scales) and revert down to number of days annual leave (appropriate for your length of tenure across all grades).

Its reasonably straight forward- and a relief for many pre-existing civil servants- who were turning down open panel offers left right and centre because of the perceived unfairness of marking time rules etc.

November Golf · 05-07-2020 12:01pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

I had a TCO who passed the bar exams and was waiting for a specific post to come up in her field. She was very probably the most intelligent and useful person I have ever encountered in my 20 years in the civil service- and while we appreciated her greatly, she was completely and utterly wasted as a TCO.

The teaching profession are very probably the only public servants who have figured how to monetise 3rd level qualifications- the civil service most certainly have not.

The civil service aren't great with TCO's either. I know a woman who has almost 3 years service (separate contracts) as a TCO. She finished her current contact last friday and has to wait now for the CO panel to call her or next TCO comp to open.

I think most TCO's (bar the summer-only college students) are looking for permanent contracts. Its a shame really there isn't a way in via the TCO grade. Even if your good at the job, it means little in an open competition.

noodler · 05-07-2020 12:03pm

Definitely better AP prospects as an AO in my experience.

SFC1895 · 05-07-2020 1:36pm

noodler wrote: »

Definitely better AP prospects as an AO in my experience.

I got AP after 2 years as an AO. However, the 2018 AP comp definitely pushed back against AOs, particularly those with no previous civil service experience before becoming AO. I think this was a reaction to the previous campaign where I heard anecdotally that DPER and the Departments were not satisfied with the standards of some of the APs who had come up as an AO.

So I would say AOs are well placed to get AP, if they have previous CS/PS experience.

noodler · 05-07-2020 5:11pm

SFC1895 wrote: »

I got AP after 2 years as an AO. However, the 2018 AP comp definitely pushed back against AOs, particularly those with no previous civil service experience before becoming AO. I think this was a reaction to the previous campaign where I heard anecdotally that DPER and the Departments were not satisfied with the standards of some of the APs who had come up as an AO.

So I would say AOs are well placed to get AP, if they have previous CS/PS experience.

Definitely something I heard from the open competition in 2015/2016 because people were being interviewed based on their test scores and/or etray alone. Remedied, imo, in recent open comps where forms are used after tests to decide whether suitable for interview.

But all that aside, being an AO in a dept gives you better AP prospects for internal and inter D comps.

ItsAllDonn · 09-07-2020 11:08pm

Hi there, I have a similar query which someone might help me out with if you could. If a CO on point1 on the CO scale takes an AO position they move to point 1 on that scale, but do they stay at point 1 of AO scale for 1 year regardless of previous time served as CO? I know it might sound silly, but it's more about how soon they could get to point 2 of the AO scale. Any help would be appreciated, Thank you

whampiri · 10-07-2020 12:25am

ItsAllDonn wrote: »

Hi there, I have a similar query which someone might help me out with if you could. If a CO on point1 on the CO scale takes an AO position they move to point 1 on that scale, but do they stay at point 1 of AO scale for 1 year regardless of previous time served as CO? I know it might sound silly, but it's more about how soon they could get to point 2 of the AO scale. Any help would be appreciated, Thank you

Yes, you remain at point 1 of the scale for a year.

MrsBean · 10-07-2020 12:26am

ItsAllDonn wrote: »

Hi there, I have a similar query which someone might help me out with if you could. If a CO on point1 on the CO scale takes an AO position they move to point 1 on that scale, but do they stay at point 1 of AO scale for 1 year regardless of previous time served as CO? I know it might sound silly, but it's more about how soon they could get to point 2 of the AO scale. Any help would be appreciated, Thank you

Yeah whatever your start date is as an AO will be your increment date the following year. Your 'time served as a CO' is just that - as a CO, not an AO. Your increment date changes with each promotion as far as I'm aware.

Bear in mind there's the 2% pay restoration increase in October which will make a little difference too.

Attaching a relevant circular on starting pay on promotion for existing civil servants which I didn't know about until recently. Useful to know.

ItsAllDonn · 10-07-2020 6:14am

Thank you both for your replies,it is what I expected but just wanted to check it out. Much appreciated!

ItsAllDonn · 12-07-2020 1:17pm

Does anyone know how candidates are appointed onto the AO higher pay scale? Is it on relevant in certain departments? Any info appreciated

noodler · 12-07-2020 1:35pm

ItsAllDonn wrote: »

Does anyone know how candidates are appointed onto the AO higher pay scale? Is it on relevant in certain departments? Any info appreciated

Only applies to Dper, dfin and dtaois.

I believe the process to upgrade to higher is handled differently within those depts but you typically needed to be AO standard for three years and then if you were in the top 20% of your grade seniority-wise then you could apply for it with the support of your line manager.

After three years, there is a good chance you would be in the top 20%.

HEP to AO

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