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More ridiculous injury payouts

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  • 04-04-2019 7:11pm
    #1
    kildare lad
    Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭


    80,000 euro for cutting his arm hopping over a fence, it's no wonder insurance is so high here. If I claimed every time I got a few stitches or ended up on crutches when I was a child , I'd be a millionaire. I was listening to the radio today and they were discussing the inflated payouts we have here. The average claim pay out in Ireland is 18,000 euro while in Britain it's 5,000. There's something drastically wrong with that figure. There was a woman who owned a play centre on , she had to close down her business because her premiums went up by 1000 % in the last 6 years all because of parasitic lawyers and parents looking for and easy buck.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/boy-who-cut-arm-while-climbing-building-site-fence-gets-80000-settlement-37981874.html


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    #2
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,944 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    I watched the report about the lady in the playcentre. Kid bumped his head, no physical injury and is now so traumatised he can't go and play with his friends. Approx 26k. For the sake of disclosure, I work in insurance, but I can tell you these type of events are not unusal. The level of payout is just too tempting


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    #3
    Your Face
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,277 ✭✭✭Your Face


    Probably cheaper for the company to pay out than to pursue the case to the end.

    That's the thing with sites nowadays, they have to be idiot proof.

    Still don't agree with this though, as the child entered the site of his own volition.


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    #4
    BeerWolf
    Registered Users Posts: 4,122 ✭✭✭BeerWolf


    I hope for the day one of these useless Judges bump into a child, and have to pay €80k for a traumatic experience to said child...


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    #5
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Young fella shouldn't have been climbing the fence in the first place. Should have got a good slap and told to behave himself, not be handed 80 grand.


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    #6
    mad muffin
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭mad muffin


    When there is no need for personal responsibility. When the insurance companies can payout these ridiculous sums because we will foot the bill with increased premiums. This is the situation we have.

    You either have your shît locked down tighter than a submarine or we pay.


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    #7
    washman3
    Registered Users Posts: 3,646 ✭✭✭washman3


    So 80k for the child and probably another 40/50k for the solicitor bringing the case and who is just possibly a cricket/sailing/rugby buddy of the presiding judge.
    It's not rocket science really.
    Wake up Ireland...


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    #8
    no.8
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭no.8


    I think we'll end up in living in the Rep. Of bubble-wrap land in the near future. I'm all for logical health and safety in our world but this is f**kin joke. His fault, he climbed it, he hurt himself. Sometimes there is no way to idiot-proof inanimate objects and this nonsense will encourage toerags to follow at pace.

    We're going down a very murky slippery slope and there is little to no regulation.

    P.s. saw that report. Feel very sorry for play centre staff and the uncertainty this brings.


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    #9
    BeerWolf
    Registered Users Posts: 4,122 ✭✭✭BeerWolf


    This is going to destroy creches and, I wouldn't be surprised, schools eventually. Small schools closure, parents struggling to get places in other schools... single parents having a difficult time keeping a job due to child, etc.

    This claims culture seriously needs to ****ing cope on.


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    #10
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users Posts: 81,388 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    I think some of the judges think it's a gameshow they are hosting and not a court of law.


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    #11
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,944 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    I think some of the judges think it's a gameshow they are hosting and not a court of law.

    Exactly, which leads to the situation where insurers are reluctant to pay an additional 30k in costs for the privilege of risking a case in front of these people, which, in turn feeds the problem


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    #12
    Samuel Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 179 ✭✭Samuel Vimes


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    I think some of the judges think it's a gameshow they are hosting and not a court of law.

    Why blame judges?
    Almost all of these cases were settled so it was nothing to do with the judge.
    In fact it is extremely rare that the judge ever gets to decide in a personal injuries case as most never get to court as they are settled beforehand, and those that do get to court are either settled before the case gets to the judge or are only there for estimation of damages because liability has been accepted.
    Ask the insurance companies why they keep settling!


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    #13
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Your Face wrote: »
    Probably cheaper for the company to pay out than to pursue the case to the end.

    ....

    Only in the short term. In the longer term it encourages an avalanche of these claims. Which is what we are seeing.


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    #14
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,944 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    Samuel Vimes wrote: »
    Why blame judges?
    Almost all of these cases were settled so it was nothing to do with the judge.
    In fact it is extremely rare that the judge ever gets to decide in a personal injuries case as most never get to court as they are settled beforehand, and those that do get to court are either settled before the case gets to the judge or are only there for estimation of damages because liability has been accepted.
    Ask the insurance companies why they keep settling!

    Because even if awards remain high, insurers would take more cases if there was consistency in the outcome. Taking an action is not always about establishing liability. More often than not it is about the level of award when liability is admitted.

    If the correct value of a claim, for example, is €20k and the claimant is seeking 40k, why would an insurer take a case to court when there is a strong possibility the judge might award €50k on top of €15k in legal fees for having the case heard? If they are lucky enough (and it is luck) for a judge to award the 20k, it will have cost €35k overall to settle


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    #15
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    BeerWolf wrote: »
    This is going to destroy creches and, I wouldn't be surprised, schools eventually. Small schools closure, parents struggling to get places in other schools... single parents having a difficult time keeping a job due to child, etc.

    This claims culture seriously needs to ****ing cope on.
    Yeah, but the lawyers and judges need bigger houses and more lavish holidays. I think that it's actually criminal the way they get with it, and it actually highlights how corrupt the political system is in this country ....... when they allow small businesses to close down instead of reforming an obviously solicitor-favoured compensation system.

    Some posters are saying that it's not the judges fault and many cases are settled before it reaches them.
    They are settled because the insurance companies know that they will get crucified if is goes before Irish judges based on the ludicrous amounts that are awarded by them.

    Also excusing the judges awards due to the book of quantum does not hold water, as the book of quantum had a very high baseline to begin with.
    Why are our unfortunate claimants getting 4 1/2 times the amounts that they would get in the UK? Are people in Ireland that special?

    I happen to think that judges are now the most disliked group in Ireland; even more so than politicians. Well done Judges judges.


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    #16
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Kivaro wrote: »
    Yeah, but the lawyers and judges need bigger houses and more lavish holidays. I think that it's actually criminal the way they get with it, and it actually highlights how corrupt the political system is in this country ....... when they allow small businesses to close down instead of reforming an obviously solicitor-favoured compensation system.

    I don't know why you've included judges in the above paragraph. They get paid a set salary so it makes no difference to them how many cases they adjudicate on or how much they award or don't award.


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    #17
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Samuel Vimes wrote: »
    Why blame judges?
    Almost all of these cases were settled so it was nothing to do with the judge.
    In fact it is extremely rare that the judge ever gets to decide in a personal injuries case as most never get to court as they are settled beforehand, and those that do get to court are either settled before the case gets to the judge or are only there for estimation of damages because liability has been accepted.
    Ask the insurance companies why they keep settling!

    Because it's been shown that you'll lose so no point in wasting time on court. Doesn't mean they've been right to create this way of thinking though.


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    #18
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »
    Because it's been shown that you'll lose so no point in wasting time on court. Doesn't mean they've been right to create this way of thinking though.


    It's actually the law that's at fault rather than the judges. They just apply the law, they don't write it.

    The problem is that the law sets the bar so high, that it's almost impossible for companies/employers etc. to adhere exactly to the law.


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    #19
    Samuel Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 179 ✭✭Samuel Vimes


    OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »
    Because it's been shown that you'll lose so no point in wasting time on court. Doesn't mean they've been right to create this way of thinking though.

    Bollix

    Cases being reported every day in papers where claimants lose/withdraw case when insurance investigators give evidence.
    This weeks one;
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/airport-worker-who-sued-after-falling-over-bag-withdraws-case-1.3849490


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    #20
    enricoh
    Registered Users Posts: 4,842 ✭✭✭enricoh


    Samuel Vimes wrote: »
    Why blame judges?
    Almost all of these cases were settled so it was nothing to do with the judge.
    In fact it is extremely rare that the judge ever gets to decide in a personal injuries case as most never get to court as they are settled beforehand, and those that do get to court are either settled before the case gets to the judge or are only there for estimation of damages because liability has been accepted.
    Ask the insurance companies why they keep settling!

    Insurance companies keep settling so they don't have to take their chances with some judge who doles out cash like its monopoly money. Plus they save on all the additional court expenses.
    Parasites are closing hard working peoples businesses, time for another government report looking into it!!


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    #21
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,110 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Samuel Vimes wrote: »
    Why blame judges?
    Almost all of these cases were settled so it was nothing to do with the judge.
    In fact it is extremely rare that the judge ever gets to decide in a personal injuries case as most never get to court as they are settled beforehand, and those that do get to court are either settled before the case gets to the judge or are only there for estimation of damages because liability has been accepted.
    Ask the insurance companies why they keep settling!


    OK, but plenty of times Judges do make excessive awards, which any reasonable person can see are wrong.

    Here's one:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/woman-trapped-in-lift-for-4-minutes-awarded-25-000-1.2821113

    Trapped in a lift for four mins - Judge awards 25,000.

    "A woman who was trapped in a lift at the Square shopping centre in Tallaght for just over 4½ minutes has been awarded €25,060 by the High Court.

    Mr Justice Anthony Barr awarded costs on the Circuit Court scale with a certificate for one senior counsel for each side."

    Is there any way to make Judges redundant for incompetence?


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    #22
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,110 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Judge Anthony Barr is at it again.

    Is there any way at all to get rid of these Judges??



    "A MAN who slipped on tiles on the front porch of his local authority home has been awarded €105,000 by the High Court.

    Thomas Keegan had sued Sligo County Council after he slipped on the porch which had a mosaic tile floor, fracturing his left ankle.

    Mr Keegan(49) had told the court he was on his way home from a funeral and had consumed five pints on the day of the accident on November 18, 2013.

    He was going in his front door at McNeill Drive, Cranmore, when he said his left foot slipped on the porch tiles and he fell forward, landing in the hall. He later had to have an operation on the ankle.

    Sligo County Council had claimed Mr Keegan had consumed five pints of beer on the day of the accident in November 2013 and he failed to take reasonable care for his own safety when entering the property.

    Mr Justice Anthony Barr said he accepted Mr Keegan’s evidence he continues to experience pain in the ankle joint in particular when standing for long periods, when walking on uneven ground and when ascending steps and stairs."


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    #23
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,944 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    Samuel Vimes wrote:
    Cases being reported every day in papers where claimants lose/withdraw case when insurance investigators give evidence. This weeks one;


    These are noteworthy cases which make good reading in the press and insurers have been more successful lately. However, there are 100s every day that you don't get to hear about.

    Don't get me wrong, insurers are very much part of the problem. Back in the boom, too many matters went unchallenged and this led to the feeding frenzy we have today.


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    #24
    Anteayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 886 ✭✭✭Anteayer


    It's amazing that the Troika brought up the legal costs in Ireland and all of this stuff during the economic crisis here and the powers that be just opted to focus on anything else instead.

    If we don't take this issue seriously, we are destroying the economy, restricting growth and keeping costs very high.

    Part of the reason why consumer prices here are so high is astronomically expensive insurance for retail and other aspects of the supply chain.

    It's also fairly clear that there's no incentive for insurers not to settle. I can only assume they're happy with huge payouts justifying enormous premiums. Ultimately, if the costs are being met by policy holders they won't care.

    This has to be dealt with by then government. It's not going to fix itself.


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    #25
    lalababa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭lalababa


    BeerWolf wrote: »
    This is going to destroy creches and, I wouldn't be surprised, schools eventually. Small schools closure, parents struggling to get places in other schools... single parents having a difficult time keeping a job due to child, etc.

    This claims culture seriously needs to ****ing cope on.

    It's not just creches and schools it's almost every business AND public & private lands, infact the only place where a person cannot claim for an incident is in their own home and only if they're not renting. Scratch that, what's the story with home and personal injury insurance! You probably can!
    There are countless businesses feeling the heat, such as marts. The beef production industry is loosing money and can't afford Mart premiums.


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    #26
    LionelNashe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭LionelNashe


    It was claimed there was a failure to exercise any or any reasonable care towards persons, particularly children, who might attempt to climb the fence, when it was known or ought to have been known it was in an allegedly dangerous condition.

    It was further claimed the fence was allegedly unstable and dangerous, particularly to children who might attempt to climb it.

    The claims were denied. It was contended there was in place an adequate system for supervision, monitoring and safety of the use of the site. It was denied there was a failure to adequately maintain the fence.

    *If* the claims about the fence were true, it could have been a kid's throat that was sliced open and not just his arm. 80k is about right as a penalty, but most of it shouldn't go to the kid, I reckon, but be levied as some kind of health and safety fine.


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    #27
    tigerboon
    Registered Users Posts: 721 ✭✭✭tigerboon


    Samuel Vimes wrote: »
    Why blame judges?
    Almost all of these cases were settled so it was nothing to do with the judge.
    In fact it is extremely rare that the judge ever gets to decide in a personal injuries case as most never get to court as they are settled beforehand, and those that do get to court are either settled before the case gets to the judge or are only there for estimation of damages because liability has been accepted.
    Ask the insurance companies why they keep settling!

    Judges being "favourable" to the claimant is part of the racket.


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    #28
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,046 ✭✭✭Berserker


    mad muffin wrote: »
    When there is no need for personal responsibility. When the insurance companies can payout these ridiculous sums because we will foot the bill with increased premiums. This is the situation we have.

    I just don't understand this claim culture. Mrs. B was coming out of the shopping centre a while back. Her heel get caught in a crack in the path and she fell. No harm done, apart from a damaged heel and a bit of embarrassment. Mentioned it to a few friends in passing and they were all over us for not pursuing it. I'd be fcking mortified if she did, as would she. Guess we are just odd folk.
    Eggs For Dinner wrote: »
    I watched the report about the lady in the playcentre. Kid bumped his head, no physical injury and is now so traumatised he can't go and play with his friends. Approx 26k. For the sake of disclosure, I work in insurance, but I can tell you these type of events are not unusal. The level of payout is just too tempting

    If they pursue these claims it'll end up costing more. These cases drag of for years. I used to work in insurance for years; on the I.T. side but I've a pretty good grasp on the claims world from my time there. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff that goes on.


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    #29
    BeerWolf
    Registered Users Posts: 4,122 ✭✭✭BeerWolf


    Curious how insurance fraud is illegal, yet these frivolous claims are so readily handed out.

    €25k for the inconveniece of being stuck in an elevator for 4 minutes??? W t f


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    #30
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,944 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    Anteayer wrote:
    It's also fairly clear that there's no incentive for insurers not to settle. I can only assume they're happy with huge payouts justifying enormous premiums. Ultimately, if the costs are being met by policy holders they won't care.


    They do care if the premiums become uneconomical and people stop paying, or if underwriters withdraw the facility altogether, as is the case with many sectors such as the playcentres. It is not in an insurers interest to have to quote a premium necessary to cover claims, if nobody can pay it.


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    #31
    no.8
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭no.8


    LionelNashe wrote:
    *If* the claims about the fence were true, it could have been a kid's throat that was sliced open and not just his arm. 80k is about right as a penalty, but most of it shouldn't go to the kid, I reckon, but be levied as some kind of health and safety fine.


    This must be troll material? What planet are you living on?
    It didn't say that spikes were projecting from side of the fence!


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