Is accountability alien to our public sector?

The worst thing is, when something wrong is found to have happened, they hold a tribunal. They get the report from the tribunal and say "Right, we know what happened now" and just file the report away. With no proper outcome or punishment.

Just have a criminal trial instead.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

public sector procurement is controlled by the most rigorous set of laws and regulations that build discipline and fairness into the process.

bollox

In many of the government departments i have worked with both Capex and opex budgets are rigorously set and monitored. The thought of breaking either as routine would terrify the Sec Gens and Asst Secs as its verging close to stuff that gets you sent to the Joy as the C&AG process is not funny

Sure - if there was something like Shannon flooding -i.e. an emergency , or a hard Brexit and you needed a supplementary budget you go to the Minister and get the Dail to vote the extra taxes or whatever . But thats emergencies *NOT* routine.

The HSE ( and the Dept of Health beforehand) routinely blow Cap and Op and its awful

beauf wrote: »

Because there is a tendering process and if Tesco doesn't apply you can't use them. If in 4 yes another supplier wants to know why they didn't get the contract then you'll be able to show them that process.

Why the tenders are much more expensive than just going into a shop you'd have to ask the private companies submitting the tenders.

What about the fact that very often one of the requirements is a minimum turnover from the company over the past x years which makes it extremely difficult for small companies to tender and increase competition.
Now they'll tell you its to ensure "expertise" but again as we've seen from the childrens hospital the "expertise" is in taking advantage of the inept civil service and a minister for health who has practically zero real world experience in terms of employment or life experience

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

I know for definite that somebody is paying over a thousand quid for a special needs buggy you can buy for 300-400 euro off a separate supplier.

The supplier will actually tell you on the phone that they supply the hse and to try another supplier which is a lot cheaper.

It's mad though how the other supplier didn't tender for a price at about €900, cheaper than the current supplier? He be shipping piles of them at €500 more than his current price.

Perhaps it's because he can't meet the HSE requirements for shipping to regional centres? Or perhaps he doesn't have enough public liability insurance to sell to the HSE, hence the lower price. Or perhaps the HSE tender was for a bundle of products, so while there may be ups and downs on individual items, that supplier still provides the best value on an overall contract?

And please don't forget to answer my questions about your other claims. It would be great to get more details on those.

jd wrote: »

So Tom Costello is gone. The board charged with directing this project seem to from the private and public sector.


http://www.newchildrenshospital.ie/the-project/national-paediatric-hospital-development-board/

Would you blame him? Why would you bother your arse doing everything by the book, with the Department informed every step of the way, only to be hung out to dry?

Any resignations or firings?

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

I’d say he went in at around the average bid then upped his price after being rewarded the contract.

It's pretty obvious what happened there. All the suppliers got together and agreed to let him be the only applicant at around the €900 mark. He then shared the profits with the rest of them.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You're not a civil servant. You're a public servant.

But regardless, what have you done to address these problems? Have you reported them to the Board of Management? Or to the Patron? Or to the Department? Or to the Gardai, if you're alleging fraud?

If you have specific information, and you're not doing anything about it, you're part of the problem.

I've seen many people trip over the 'well I got a price from Dell' idea over the years. If the other tender includes associated services like installation or on site support, then you're comparing apples and oranges.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Considered by who? They're not civil servants. They're public servants.

And both civil and public servants have extensive protections under Protected Disclosure legislation. And if you don't fancy that, it is still remarkably easy to get information anonymously to a journalist or Garda. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Yeah, being a whistleblower worked out really well for Maruice McCabe didn't it? He did the morally right thing and look what happened to him. Why would anyone else want to do that to themselves?

Quandary wrote: »

Teachers are considered to be civil servants.

How do you think it would affect my teaching career if I actually went on a crusade to shine a light on these problems? I would have to be a complete idiot to do it. Independent audits into these areas need to be conducted by professionals.

Installation and configuration of the aforementioned laptops was done by me also.

You may not like what I posted but I can most certainly assure you that it is 100% true. Of course, I'm just an anonymous coward behind a keyboard so no need to take what I say as fact.

^^^ This. Says it all about why on one says a word

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

I’d say he went in at around the average bid then upped his price after being rewarded the contract.

The point about a contract is that the prices are set. I don't know any pub procurement frameworks for , let's say, Weetabix, where you can vary the price of the Weetabix after you win the gig. Sure there may be a CPI inflation written in but thats about it

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Or the fella who overlooks it all resigns and everybody carries on.
Then the fella that resigns gets a cushy new job running something else once the heat dies down.

This country is a toilet, but nearly every country is a toilet so I wouldn’t worry too much about it.

Still avoiding going into any specifics on your claims, I see. If you do want to understand what happened at the Children's Hospital, take a look at this explanation from one of the top private sector quantity surveyors in the country.


https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/paul-mcneive-childrens-hospital-cost-overrun-can-be-explained-37742244.html

Quandary wrote: »

Speaking of fortuitous tendering...

Doesn't Michael Healy Raes plant hire and haulage company receive a significant amount of state tendered contracts via Kerry Co. Council?

How this is permitted and cannot be seen as a conflict of interest is beyond strange.

Not surprising though.

Anything on the SIPO register about it ?

The make up of that board , which I've no doubt is of a similar make up to most boards is astounding.
The "expertise" is made up of people who are highly qualified but not people at the coal face.
That board should at a minimum include (1) 2 parents (advocates) of children who regularly use the services of the childrens hospital or have been in the recent past (2) two staff including a staff nurse (3) one administrative staff member at lowest or next lowest level.


But that won't happen because those people "wouldn't have the expertise" .

They're the people who would ask the question "Hold on, we have major major parking issues in Crumlin not to mention Temple Street why are we building this in a city centre location when there is scope to build it on a far more spacious site?"

or "Why are we allowing consultants to dictate the location when there are far more stake holders here who will be more negatively impacted by the location"

or "Hold on, why are we awarding a contract without a penalty clause for late completion and which will state explicitly that any cost over runs is the responsibility of the builder"

Quandary wrote: »

You are either naive or deliberately obtuse.

Which one is it?

You tell me. If you have information or knowledge about the Healy Rae contracts, please share. If you want to cast aspersions about stuff that you really know nothing about, I'd suggest that you tread very carefully.


There are very strict ethics rules for Councillors, and they get pulled up on them by SIPO from time to time. These rules don't bar Councillors from doing business with the Council, provided they have no role in awarding contracts, and their interests are declared.


That's the law. If you've a problem with the law, go tell your local TD to change it.

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

The make up of that board , which I've no doubt is of a similar make up to most boards is astounding.
The "expertise" is made up of people who are highly qualified but not people at the coal face.
That board should at a minimum include (1) 2 parents (advocates) of children who regularly use the services of the childrens hospital or have been in the recent past (2) two staff including a staff nurse (3) one administrative staff member at lowest or next lowest level.


But that won't happen because those people "wouldn't have the expertise" .

They're the people who would ask the question "Hold on, we have major major parking issues in Crumlin not to mention Temple Street why are we building this in a city centre location when there is scope to build it on a far more spacious site?"

or "Why are we allowing consultants to dictate the location when there are far more stake holders here who will be more negatively impacted by the location"

or "Hold on, why are we awarding a contract without a penalty clause for late completion and which will state explicitly that any cost over runs is the responsibility of the builder"

Patient representation and staff representation would be great indeed. It was interesting to see the RSA including two parents of road death victims on their latest board.


But really, why would parking be the deciding factor in locating a facility like this. Do we want great parking and poor clinical results? The location was chosen by an expert panel of medics, planners and architects. Why would you think that you know better?


And by the way, it's EXACTLY the kind of thinking that you call for - outsourcing of ALL risk onto the builder - that results in huge inflated prices on these contracts. Be careful what you wish for.

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

That doesn’t explain anything. Thats the second time I’ve clicked one of your links and it doesn’t do what you said it did.

It’s just random waffle. From my experience in the building trade I’d say a quote was given then a pile of extras were added. A slightly less obvious version of

“Oh you wanted running water mrs? Oh that wasn’t in the original price mrs? Ooooh that’ll be extra.

Now obviously it won’t be done on things as obvious as running water but say for example the air con units can’t fit where they are supposed to go because an rsj is blocking the ducting from connecting to it. Now sudddenly 400 units need to be moved 4 inches to the left. They may not even have been hung yet but it’s free money. Bill a half a day for each one that needs to be moved as an extra.

Nobody at the moment in the public could really know what went on but the extras are the first place I’d look.

Once again, your knowledge of what's going isn't really adding anything to the situation. Seeing as they are years away from fitting running water or a/c ducts, you've missed the target again here.



And the recent move towards PPP design/build contracts means that if the design for the a/c ducts is wrong, that's the developer's problem to fix, at the developer's expense, not the clients.


So maybe you'd like to go back and read again what an actual expert who has done some actual research has come up with, instead of your fantasy stuff.

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

It’s all just spin and bluster. The person awarding the contracts could have been selected because he was trusted with awarding the right fella the contract.
The person writing up the contract could have been selected because he was trusted with writing the best contract for exploitation.
The person checking the contract and agreeing extras could have been selected because he did what he was told.
The people running the inquiries will probably be selected.

My oh my, that's an awful lot of 'selecting', isn't it? No one person evaluates tenders like this. There will be teams of people involved in tender evaluation, so are these teams 'all selected' because they're known to be corrupt? So they've worked for years, never been caught on the fiddle, and got themselves into senior positions to risk it all for creaming a few grand off a contract?


It must be great just to come up with spurious allegations without having anything to back them up. Every time you've been asked to come up with something specific, you've moved the goalposts.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Very hard to keep secrets in this day and age, given that anyone can record any conversation at any time on their phone. Just ask the lads who went up against Maurice McCabe.


So you reckon that the most senior staff in all the banks here are colluding on interest rates? How exactly did you work that out?

I doubt very much if the LIBOR scandal is not being repeated. And it would have to be directed from the top.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libor_scandal

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

It was either gross corruption or gross incompetence that led to some of the cost miscalculations.

I'm not sure which is better. In fact I'd nearly prefer the corruption if the cost was only a couple hundred million of an overrun.

In this case there is no accountability which is a form of corruption.

It would have to be a particular "form of corruption" to be prosecuted in the courts. Which would require the evidence to be tested.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2018/act/9/enacted/en/html

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Still avoiding going into any specifics on your claims, I see. If you do want to understand what happened at the Children's Hospital, take a look at this explanation from one of the top private sector quantity surveyors in the country.


https://www.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/paul-mcneive-childrens-hospital-cost-overrun-can-be-explained-37742244.html

You're fond of asking for concrete examples yet you've linked to an article which is about as insightful as the Sun's gossip pages.
:eek:

That chap is not one of the "Top private sector quantity surveyors". Hes a journalist and motivational speaker and former head of HOK
http://www.paulmcneive.com/motivational_speaker.html