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Is accountability alien to our public sector?

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    #62
    Flyingsnowball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭Flyingsnowball


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    The fact that public service sick leave only pays for six months, three of those at half salary, shows your story to be a tissue of lies.

    You in the union?
    There is a loophole. Go sick at 7 ish months pregnant. Go on maternity leave. That runs you until baby is about 9 months old. Then sign on sick or something and you get a percentage of your wage for about another year. Then sign on carers allowance or sick or welfare aNd use up your stamps. Then turn up at your job like nothin happened and tell the agency person hired to replace you to get the road you are now back and ready to work.

    Human Resources advise this I’m 100 per cent telling the truth. That’s why the public service is full of agency staff. It’s because they hold so many jobs open.


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    #63
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,251 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    There's an element of this that simply comes from construction inflation, given where we were at inception vs today.

    But Christ, my fear is simply that suppliers take public sector contracts for a ride.


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    #64
    Flyingsnowball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭Flyingsnowball


    noodler wrote: »
    There's an element of this that simply comes from construction inflation, given where we were at inception vs today.

    But Christ, my fear is simply that suppliers take public sector contracts for a ride.

    I think a lot of the time the fella awarding the contract tells his mate to name his price and they split the money.


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    #65
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,292 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    Firstly, it is important to say that I do not mean this as an attack on the public sector, the majority of which do a fine job in in some cases very tough environments.

    But hearing Simon Harris say today that the PWC report into the childrens hospital should find nobody personally accountable for the failures on the project to date.

    This follows hot on the heels of a scandal which cost people their lives in the cervical cancer scandal - public servants knew that women were terminally ill and didn't compel doctors to tell these women. 1 person retired, and swanned off with a big pension.

    This follows many previous scandals involving Gardai, Tusla, and many more state agencies who have been embroiled in various scandals over the years.

    This all got me thinking, what does somebody in the public sector have to do to be held accountable for incompetence, mis-management, etc.

    Are the lines of accountability simply too blurred for any 1 individual to be held accountable?
    I have a friend who is a QS who said if they under-estimated something of the scale of the childrens hospital, they would be clearing their desk the minute the error was noticed. Why isn't this happening?

    I appreciate mistakes happen. We all make them. But this isn't a simple error on a calculator. This is a reckless careless indifferent attitude to how tax payers money is spent. It is such a poor lack of oversight that surely at some point in this country somebody has to shout enough is enough.

    If we are ever to stop messes like this happening over and over again, at some point, surely people need to start paying for their mistakes with their job.

    If nobody is held accountable for these sort of mistakes, then surely all that is going to happen next time is another 450k (is the cost of that even certain) into the pockets of PWC and another report to just gather dust beside the other reports gathering dust?

    Be a whistleblower and you'll be held accountable


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    #66
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,488 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Flyingsnowball wrote: »
    You in the union?
    There is a loophole. Go sick at 7 ish months pregnant. Go on maternity leave. That runs you until baby is about 9 months old. Then sign on sick or something and you get a percentage of your wage for about another year. Then sign on carers allowance or sick or welfare aNd use up your stamps. Then turn up at your job like nothin happened and tell the agency person hired to replace you to get the road you are now back and ready to work.

    Human Resources advise this I’m 100 per cent telling the truth. That’s why the public service is full of agency staff. It’s because they hold so many jobs open.

    There is no loophole. If you use two months sick leave before the pregnancy, you have one month left at full pay, and three months left at half pay. What's carer's allowance got to do with sick leave?

    What HR Dept in what agency is 'advising this'?


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    #67
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,488 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Flyingsnowball wrote: »
    I think a lot of the time the fella awarding the contract tells his mate to name his price and they split the money.

    Except when the other fella comes in with a lower, normal price - and the two other people involved in the tender evaluation ensure that the most economically advantageous tender gets the contract, as required by law.


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    #68
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,251 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Flyingsnowball wrote: »
    I think a lot of the time the fella awarding the contract tells his mate to name his price and they split the money.

    As in a civil servant pocketing millions?

    Don't buy that for a second.

    This isn't corruption.


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    #69
    depcon
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭depcon


    Over 300000 people in the public service not including contractors which at a guess could be half again . Given the way outsourcing your job has taken over this country it's not hard to see why accountability and performance suffer in a backward, top heavy organization.


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    #70
    Flyingsnowball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭Flyingsnowball


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    There is no loophole. If you use two months sick leave before the pregnancy, you have one month left at full pay, and three months left at half pay. What's carer's allowance got to do with sick leave?

    What HR Dept in what agency is 'advising this'?

    5 months sick leave? Then maternity, then stamps? You think this is normal?


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    #71
    Flyingsnowball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭Flyingsnowball


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Except when the other fella comes in with a lower, normal price - and the two other people involved in the tender evaluation ensure that the most economically advantageous tender gets the contract, as required by law.

    Yeah like they can’t share the lower bid.

    Oh you claim sick leave doesn’t happen either. Why do the public sector have a spin doctor putting out fires on a half dead forum. Will the union not let you be relocated to reddit?


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    #72
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,251 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    depcon wrote: »
    Over 300000 people in the public service not including contractors which at a guess could be half again . Given the way outsourcing your job has taken over this country it's not hard to see why accountability and performance suffer in a backward, top heavy organization.

    150,000 contractors?

    You are mental.


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    #73
    Flyingsnowball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭Flyingsnowball


    noodler wrote: »
    As in a civil servant pocketing millions?

    Don't buy that for a second.

    This isn't corruption.

    No there’s no way a civil servant could pocket a few quid. I don’t buy that either. It’s never happened before.


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    #74
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,251 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Flyingsnowball wrote: »
    No there’s no way a civil servant could pocket a few quid. I don’t buy that either. It’s never happened before.

    Are you taking the piss?

    Do you know of an example where a civil or public servant took a bribe? Nevermind on a scale of the project discussed?


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    #75
    Flyingsnowball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭Flyingsnowball


    noodler wrote: »
    Are you taking the piss?

    Do you know of an example where a civil or public servant took a bribe? Nevermind on a scale of the project discussed?

    I’ll get you the prime time box set.


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    #76
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,251 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Flyingsnowball wrote: »
    I’ll get you the prime time box set.

    I'm serious, maybe I'm missing something but a civil or public servant?

    Are you sure you don't mean a politician?


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    #77
    depcon
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭depcon


    noodler wrote: »
    150,000 contractors?

    You are mental.

    Who cleans the hospitals ,schools, provides IT services, maintenance to buildings , security, veichile maintenance, most county council maintenance to road etc is sub contracted. Anyone employed on construction of a government backed project is a contractor in my eyes I'm probably under estimating the number could be close to 300000 again.


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    #78
    Flyingsnowball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭Flyingsnowball


    noodler wrote: »
    I'm serious, maybe I'm missing something but a civil or public servant?

    Are you sure you don't mean a politician?

    You believe a person only becomes corrupt when he is elected?


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    #79
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    Firstly, it is important to say that I do not mean this as an attack on the public sector, the majority of which do a fine job in in some cases very tough environments.

    But hearing Simon Harris say today that the PWC report into the childrens hospital should find nobody personally accountable for the failures on the project to date.

    This follows hot on the heels of a scandal which cost people their lives in the cervical cancer scandal - public servants knew that women were terminally ill and didn't compel doctors to tell these women. 1 person retired, and swanned off with a big pension.

    This follows many previous scandals involving Gardai, Tusla, and many more state agencies who have been embroiled in various scandals over the years.

    This all got me thinking, what does somebody in the public sector have to do to be held accountable for incompetence, mis-management, etc.

    Are the lines of accountability simply too blurred for any 1 individual to be held accountable?
    I have a friend who is a QS who said if they under-estimated something of the scale of the childrens hospital, they would be clearing their desk the minute the error was noticed. Why isn't this happening?

    I appreciate mistakes happen. We all make them. But this isn't a simple error on a calculator. This is a reckless careless indifferent attitude to how tax payers money is spent. It is such a poor lack of oversight that surely at some point in this country somebody has to shout enough is enough.

    If we are ever to stop messes like this happening over and over again, at some point, surely people need to start paying for their mistakes with their job.

    If nobody is held accountable for these sort of mistakes, then surely all that is going to happen next time is another 450k (is the cost of that even certain) into the pockets of PWC and another report to just gather dust beside the other reports gathering dust?

    These are civil servants you need to be railing against. Very, very different bunch to public servants.


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    #80
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Flyingsnowball wrote: »
    I think a lot of the time the fella awarding the contract tells his mate to name his price and they split the money.

    Except when the other fella comes in with a lower, normal price - and the two other people involved in the tender evaluation ensure that the most economically advantageous tender gets the contract, as required by law.

    Yeah but if they then have a cost for "extras", that's where they screw the tax payer


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    #81
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    depcon wrote: »
    Over 300000 people in the public service not including contractors which at a guess could be half again . Given the way outsourcing your job has taken over this country it's not hard to see why accountability and performance suffer in a backward, top heavy organization.
    I've worked in 2 big departments. I've never seen any contractors doing an employee's job.


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    #82
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Flyingsnowball wrote: »
    Who is the fella in charge of awarding contracts. Why does he pay twice the price for most things from nappies to buildings than a private company or shopper would pay?

    Why can I head to tesco and get a packet of pampers for way less than the hospital goes and buys them in bulk.

    That’s where the smoking gun has been waiting for years

    Because there is a tendering process and if Tesco doesn't apply you can't use them. If in 4 yes another supplier wants to know why they didn't get the contract then you'll be able to show them that process.

    Why the tenders are much more expensive than just going into a shop you'd have to ask the private companies submitting the tenders.


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    #83
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Blaze Dead Firecracker wrote: »
    I've worked in 2 big departments. I've never seen any contractors doing an employee's job.

    I've seen lots of contractor's. If you have canteen or cleaners they are usually contractors. Lots of IT projects are out sourced. Contract nurse etc.


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    #84
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    ...
    If nobody is held accountable for these sort of mistakes, then surely all that is going to happen next time is another 450k (is the cost of that even certain) into the pockets of PWC and another report to just gather dust beside the other reports gathering dust?

    Who in banking was found accountable for their many scandals. How about diesel gate. How about building scandals. How about insurance scams and price fixing.

    Public sector does not reward risk. So all risk is spread by getting as many people involved as possible including involving the private sector.

    Why does the govt outsource social housing...


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    #85
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,488 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    These are civil servants you need to be railing against. Very, very different bunch to public servants.
    Divide and conquer?

    Flyingsnowball wrote: »
    I’ll get you the prime time box set.
    Yes, please do - please list out the number of times that corruption by civil or public servants has been covered on Prime Time.

    Flyingsnowball wrote: »
    Yeah like they can’t share the lower bid.
    So now you're saying that two external suppliers are going to 'share' the lower bid? So that's two external people involved in a criminal conspiracy that risks them going to jail, working together on a bid, with at least three different staff members, usually one of them from an external body, all putting their jobs on the line to cream off a contract?



    And your scheme has several other fatal flaws. First, suppliers can't 'share bids'. A contract is awarded to one or other, so they don't have an option to decide to share anything.


    Secondly, the scheme to put in an inflated bid and cream off profits gets blown away when a third supplier puts in a bid at a normal, lower price and gets awarded the contract.

    Thirdly, if another contractor reckons there is something dodgy going on, all they have to do is appeal or query the decision, and it gets reviewed by senior management - so now you have another two or three staff who have to get involved in this conspiracy, putting their jobs and careers on the line, in order to cream off a contract - so how feasible is that?


    But if you reckon this stuff is happening, please be specific about which agencies and which contracts are involved. You can see all the tenders and contract award notices on the eTenders.gov.ie site, so all the information is out in the open,


    Flyingsnowball wrote: »
    5 months sick leave? Then maternity, then stamps? You think this is normal?
    Isn't it amazing how the story suddenly changes and gets less and less dramatic with a few specific questions. So let's drill into this further - 5 months sick leave of course requires at a minimum, doctor's certification. So please tell me how these ladies find compliant doctors to sign them off with no underlying illness.



    All departments also have an occupational health service that review extended sick leave cases. Dept Education use an external provider Medmark - so the employee gets grilled by a nurse initially by phone. If concerns persist, the employee has to get examined by the company doctor or CMO, who will also review the GP records, and decide whether sick leave continues.


    But again, you seem to be avoiding specifics - what particular Department and HR offices are 'advising' the tactics that you outline?

    The only person I know that got extra maternity leave worked for one of the big banks. She had a checkup with her doctor about 3-4 weeks ahead of her planned leave date. The doctor told her not to go back to work - a normal, sensible precaution to protect her and her baby. No corruption, no drama - just a sensible medical precaution. But I guess that's not as much fun as making up stories with little basis in fact.


    And what exactly is 'stamps' in this context?


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    #86
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    we are a nation of cowboys/chancers

    this can be seen in every facet of life from the way large public infrastructure projects are handled to our whiplash culture.

    The public sector is totally devoid of accountability and society at large is totally devoid of personal responsibility.

    we are an essentially dishonerable people


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    #87
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    we are a nation of cowboys/chancers

    this can be seen in every facet of life from the way large public infrastructure projects are handled to our whiplash culture.

    The public sector is totally devoid of accountability and society at large is totally devoid of personal responsibility.

    we are an essentially dishonerable people

    Agree, everyone tries to fiddle things if they can in Ireland.

    Cute whoorism is truly alive.

    It really is everyone for themselves and who could blame them.


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    #88
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,670 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    we are a nation of cowboys/chancers

    this can be seen in every facet of life from the way large public infrastructure projects are handled to our whiplash culture.

    The public sector is totally devoid of accountability and society at large is totally devoid of personal responsibility.

    we are an essentially dishonerable people

    You may be like that but not everyone is. Please do not include me.


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    #89
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    You may be like that but not everyone is. Please do not include me.
    I know it's not nice to hear but I stand by my assessment. we lack honour and discipline.


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    #90
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,670 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    I know it's not nice to hear but I stand by my assessment. we lack honour and discipline.

    Are there no exceptions? Is everyone in your family like that?


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    #91
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Are there no exceptions? Is everyone in your family like that?
    that's not how generalisations work


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