Misogyny in the Seanad

Roger Hassenforder · 22-11-2018 12:36am #1

What a load of nonsense.
Can we vote again to abolish it?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/seanad-suspended-as-cork-senator-jerry-buttimer-accused-of-making-misogynistic-comments-886898.html

"When Ms Clifford-Lee interjected in the debate, Mr Buttimer said: "I know Senator Clifford-Lee is trying to assert herself here but it is important to listen as well."

Senator Máire Devine took exception to this saying it was "not good language" while Ms Clifford-Lee described it as "gendered language"

Gimme A Pound · 22-11-2018 12:44am

How in the name of Jeebus is that misogyny?

As that lady Gabrielle quoted at the end says, it undermines actual misogyny.

McDermotX · 22-11-2018 12:45am

My fu*kin head hurts with all this sh*te these days !

Gravelly · 22-11-2018 12:45am

I'd say senator Clifford-Lee is some fun on a night out. Gendered language me b0llix.

Ipso · 22-11-2018 12:48am

#ibelieveher

Noveight · 22-11-2018 12:50am

Laughable.

Should’ve been told to calm her tits.

Water John · 22-11-2018 12:54am

Not just defending a hometown boy but this charge against JB is just ludicrous.

Ipso · 22-11-2018 12:55am

Water John wrote: »

Not just defending a hometown boy but this charge against JB is just ludicrous.

Less of the gendered language.

Gravelly · 22-11-2018 12:57am

Water John wrote: »

Not just defending a hometown boy but this charge against JB is just ludicrous.

Thought it was funny that it was poor oul Jerry that got it in the neck, he's not exactly the type that usually riles up de wimmin.

McDermotX · 22-11-2018 12:59am

AllForIt · 22-11-2018 12:59am

He said 'she was trying to assert HERself'.

Such misogynistic language.

Female pronouns should be outlawed. They are misogynistic in their very nature.

That bloody her word. We all know where your coming from when you say she, her, herself.

Such a derogatory term.

pleas advice · 22-11-2018 12:59am

"calm down dear..."

Gravelly · 22-11-2018 1:01am

pleas advice wrote: »

"calm down dear..."

I believe the correct non-gendered term is "settle pet"

JohnnyFlash · 22-11-2018 1:09am

I wouldn’t be getting too worried about any of this stuff. In the real world there’s still men and women meeting each other, flirting, drinking, enjoying each other’s company, and banging each other’s brains out.

This identity politics stuff is only what you make of it. It has no relevance to how average lovely humans live their lives.

Cockford Ollie · 22-11-2018 1:19am

A women shouldn't interrupt a man while he is talking. She should have been reprimanded by the chairman.

Ipso · 22-11-2018 1:22am

Gravelly wrote: »

I believe the correct non-gendered term is "settle pet"

Would sugar tits be acceptable? Especially with the prevalence of man boobs.

McDermotX · 22-11-2018 1:22am

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

....
This identity politics stuff is only what you make of it. It has no relevance to how average lovely humans live their lives.

If you could just use people there instead of humans, we'll be all right.

riffmongous · 22-11-2018 2:26am

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

I wouldn’t be getting too worried about any of this stuff. In the real world there’s still men and women meeting each other, flirting, drinking, enjoying each other’s company, and banging each other’s brains out.

This identity politics stuff is only what you make of it. It has no relevance to how average lovely humans live their lives.

Hey don't be ruining the poor snowflakes fun now with your real world, they need other snowflakes to get offended so they can get offended in turn

Gimme A Pound · 22-11-2018 2:35am

riffmongous wrote: »

Hey don't be ruining the poor snowflakes fun now with your real world, they need other snowflakes to get offended so they can get offended in turn

To be fair though, as an old-school feminist (well I don't usually refer to myself as such but that's probably what I am) this sort of stuff frustrates me as it makes a mockery of what women fought for - equality, not special treatment and relentless victimhood and seeking offence when zero was intended. It's bad too when an utterly innocuous comment is deemed misogyny at official level, and a respected, decent public representative who did nothing wrong whatsoever is villified. He absolutely deserves an apology.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 22-11-2018 3:17am

You can't be thin skinned or emotionally fragile in politics.

These offence merchants are in the wrong profession.

ChikiChiki · 22-11-2018 5:54am

Christ almighty we have our fair share of space cadets hanging around Leinster House. Terry Leydon backing her up is just as bad.

minikin · 22-11-2018 7:56am

Out of her this person’s own mouth... this sort of nonsense will Stack up against her them at the next election.

Great to see strong women entering politics...
sticks and stones...

erica74 · 22-11-2018 8:07am

gendered language

So now we can't say him, her? :rolleyes:

King of Kings · 22-11-2018 8:17am

It should be a criminal offence to have dail/seanad suspended over this.

Clifford Lee is an unpleasant person. Championed by the top brass of FF against the more established local FF in fingal.
Mickey Martin playing gender politics no wonder she is a lost cause.

Bob Harris · 22-11-2018 8:25am

Jaysus, we've hit a new low. Seems like she doesn't like what your man was saying so she lobs a misogyny grenade to shut him up.
I'd say a lot a women are getting really embarrassed by that kind of crap.

padd b1975 · 22-11-2018 8:36am

Obviously has the painters in.

CrankyHaus · 22-11-2018 8:48am

Probably an improvement on what usually passes for debate on the Seanad to be honest. At least it may have woken up some of the more hungover senators dozing down the back.

The whole upper house is a disgraceful patronage machine for talentless political cronies, all funded by your taxes.

The real victim in this "misogyny" scare is the Irish electorate who voted to preserve this gravy train on the false promise of reform now being fed this self serving drama in lieu of diligent public service.

Outlaw Pete · 22-11-2018 9:04am

Bob Harris wrote: »

Seems like she doesn't like what your man was saying so she lobs a misogyny grenade to shut him up.

Yeah, sounds like it alright. Reminds of this from the Australian senate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOXh5repOWI

Yer Da sells Avon · 22-11-2018 9:46am

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/seanad-suspended-as-cork-senator-jerry-buttimer-accused-of-making-misogynistic-comments-886898.html

"When Ms Clifford-Lee interjected in the debate, Mr Buttimer said: "I know Senator Clifford-Lee is trying to assert herself here but it is important to listen as well."

Senator Máire Devine took exception to this saying it was "not good language" while Ms Clifford-Lee described it as "gendered language"

Would he have accused a man who he felt wasn't listening of "trying to assert himself"? I doubt it. So yeah, his language was probably gendered. Is it a big deal? Not really. Should the Fianna Fail senator get over herself and find less trivial things to worry her pretty little head about? Definitely.

Spleerbun · 22-11-2018 9:53am

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

I wouldn’t be getting too worried about any of this stuff. In the real world there’s still men and women meeting each other, flirting, drinking, enjoying each other’s company, and banging each other’s brains out.

This identity politics stuff is only what you make of it. It has no relevance to how average lovely humans live their lives.

"In the real world". Is the Seanad not the real world? That's sort of how people usually dismiss this stuff, "ah it's only a few no hopers on twitter looking for virtue points", but clearly this **** is festering.

All the identity politics rubbish from America is on its way to a town near you.

STB. · 22-11-2018 10:03am

Ah the Seanad...the biggest cringe is that its broadcast live for other countries to see. Some of the so called "good work" debates are more akin to two farmers standing waffling at the crossroads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w

Zorya · 22-11-2018 10:09am

I saw this yesterday, you'd have to laugh, a real try-hard scenario.

But the whole affair looked like a cheap Hall's Pictorial Weekly set, the florid faced senators with bad teeth, questionable ties and bog accents, the gaudy drapes, the cheap looking seats with great big harps on them, the blond pretty one in the leopard print getting het up to drive the drama, the cosy fat cat beside her egging her on, and to round it out Senator Norris standing up to splutter in nasal outrage from time to time. What a palaver.

Mrsmum · 22-11-2018 10:20am

I think it was quite a patronising comment. And if I used it here now in response to another poster - "I know (insert your own username) is trying to assert him/herself here but it is important to listen as well", it comes across imo as passive aggressive because you can almost hear the unspoken "dear/petal" at the end of said statement but not necessarily misogynistic.

namloc1980 · 22-11-2018 10:22am

Thankfully what happens in the Seanad is completely unrelated to what goes on in the real world. Those 2 wouldn't last 5 minutes in a real job with that sort of carry on.

Harry Palmr · 22-11-2018 10:26am

Safe space feminists are going to destroy feminim.

I'll just leave it at that!

Bob Harris · 22-11-2018 10:31am

This is up there with the time in 2014 the Seanad was recalled from the summer break to discuss Israel and crisis in the middle east.

Suckler · 22-11-2018 10:39am

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

Would he have accused a man who he felt wasn't listening of "trying to assert himself"? I doubt it. So yeah, his language was probably gendered. Is it a big deal? Not really. Should the Fianna Fail senator get over herself and find less trivial things to worry her pretty little head about? Definitely.

Would he have accused a man who he felt wasn't listening of "trying to assert himself"? I don't doubt it. So yeah, his language wasn't gendered.

22-11-2018 10:40am

If we could introduce a Section 31 for everything that comes out of Seanad Éireann, Ireland would be a better place. We need to, in the words of a great humanitarian back in the 1980s, starve them of the oxygen of publicity.

Historically it really is an awful, awful relic of the English ascendancy in Ireland - an anti-democracy which in its modern form is represented by its position as a reward for rejected-at-election politicians (e.g. Brian Hayes & Mary O'Rourke), sycophants of the governing taoiseach (e.g. the appointment of Eoghan Harris by Ahern or of Marie-Louise O'Donnell by Kenny), and pushing a narrow range of agendas from a self-styled elite in this state (for instance, anything at all from the ineffably ideologically blinkered Ivana Bacik, who must be heading towards being the most consistently rejected general election candidate in Irish election history).

Mrsmum · 22-11-2018 10:42am

Suckler wrote: »

Would he have accused a man who he felt wasn't listening of "trying to assert himself"? I don't doubt it. So yeah, his language wasn't gendered.

I don't agree with this. That is not something one man would say to another. Now I could hear a woman saying it to a man alright.

Gravelly · 22-11-2018 10:44am

She'd be fecked if she went to France or Germany as, unlike English, those languages are actually gendered.

Suckler · 22-11-2018 10:46am

Mrsmum wrote: »

I don't agree with this. That is not something one man would say to another. Now I could hear a woman saying it to a man alright.

So we need a second language to use when addressing women because you can't imagine those words being said between two men? Nonsense.

It's bullsh1t from a senator with an agenda.

Gravelly · 22-11-2018 10:51am

I think this whole storm in a teacup has a lot to do with a failed election candidate trying to get her profile up now that there are rumblings of an election on the way. Hubby is political editor of a newspaper so probably knows the tricks one needs to get media coverage.

Comhrá · 22-11-2018 10:52am

Misogyny in the Dail 1992-style:

seamus · 22-11-2018 10:53am

Suckler wrote: »

So we need a second language to use when addressing women because you can't imagine those words being said between two men? Nonsense.

It's bullsh1t from a senator with an agenda.

I can see both sides here tbh.

What Buttimer said is incredibly condescending. And it's not something he would say to another man.

So, probably unintentionally, there's clear sexism in his statement.

Losing the plot about "misogyny" though is a bit far. There's a considerable distance between someone accidentally straying into sexism (we ALL do it) and actual misogyny.

Gravelly · 22-11-2018 10:54am

Comhra wrote: »

Misogyny in the Dail 1992-style:

If a politician said that today they'd have to have emotional support animals in the Dail for months afterwards.

Zorya · 22-11-2018 10:57am

Gravelly wrote: »

If a politician said that today they'd have to have emotional support animals in the Dail for months afterwards.

Hahaha

''emotional support animals''

Mrsmum · 22-11-2018 10:57am

The art of being assertive has very definite connotations with women, Go to any assertive classes or talks about assertiveness and you won't see a man there. And I really don't think men accuse each other of trying to be assertive. So it is imo quite gendered language but do I think it is a hanging offence or anything near? No.

Zorya · 22-11-2018 11:03am

Mrsmum wrote: »

The art of being assertive has very definite connotations with women, Go to any assertive classes or talks about assertiveness and you won't see a man there. And I really don't think men accuse each other of trying to be assertive. So it is imo quite gendered language but do I think it is a hanging offence or anything near? No.

Wouldn't it be a better tactic though to have a sense of humour and proportion, and to pick battles worth fighting? There are plenty of those, goodness knows - and instead now, there is this silliness getting attention. To get snippy about every little thing actually undermines the idea of robust, competent, well-balanced females in high public office. It makes women look like they have buttons all over them just waiting to be pushed.

She would have been better to keep her powder dry and the next time he interrupted her to say the exact same thing to him, cool and calm. And if he objected to show him the house record. The Art of War is subtle, if that's what people want.

Mrsmum · 22-11-2018 11:11am

Zorya wrote: »

Wouldn't it be a better tactic though to have a sense of humour and proportion, and to pick battles worth fighting? There are plenty of those, goodness knows - and instead now, there is this silliness getting attention. To get snippy about every little thing actually undermines the idea of robust, competent, well-balanced females in high public office. It makes women look like they have buttons all over them just waiting to be pushed.

She would have been better to keep her powder dry and the next time he interrupted her to say the exact same thing to him, cool and calm. And if he objected to show him the house record. The Art of War is subtle, if that's what people want.

Honestly I totally agree. Your suggestion is a perfect way of dealing with it. It's a very small thing in the big scheme of things and I'm not trying to blow it out of proportion. But I suppose there are things we all react to just because they have the effect of the squeaky chalk on a blackboard sound on us.

PlaneSpeeking · 22-11-2018 11:18am

My boss has just asked me to do a favour and mentioned a colleague "can you ask her to pitch in too ?"

OMG the monster, he used gendered language!!! I feel faint!!!!

Jesus wept!!

Suckler · 22-11-2018 11:20am

seamus wrote: »

I can see both sides here tbh.

What Buttimer said is incredibly condescending. And it's not something he would say to another man.

So, probably unintentionally, there's clear sexism in his statement.

Losing the plot about "misogyny" though is a bit far. There's a considerable distance between someone accidentally straying into sexism (we ALL do it) and actual misogyny.

Condescending; definitely. The words were in now way sexist/misogynistic. Men & women have been condescending/rude/abrupt to each other before and will continue to do so. It shouldn't be tolerated and she was in her right to address it.

Instead she tried to direct it down the misogyny/sexism route to suit her agenda and that also shouldn't be tolerated. Her antics cheapen the sexism/misogyny issue's that you rightly say "we" some times intentionall/unintentionally stray in to.

Misogyny in the Seanad

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