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22-04-2021, 22:07   #31
BalcombeSt4
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Well again based on your previous posts I don't think you're well placed. As I say no offence meant but I think you're likely too entrenched to be objective.

I have had many members of my family involved in the troubles. Those who organised the first civil rights marches and acted in negotiations for example.

I struggle to see how the troubles was anything but a civil war. What would the UVF, UDA be rebelling against exactly.

Also according to wiki and many other sources the IRA were belligerents.
I wouldn't call the Troubles a "civil war".
A Civil War implies that the sides involved are of equal strength. Like the Russian Civil War, which like the Troubles was also a 3-way conflict between The Bolsheviks (authoritarian socialists) , the Whites & the various Left-Wing Libertarian Socialist groups.

Remember the UVF, UDA, Orange Volunteers, Down Orange Welfare & Vanguard rebelled against the Suninngdale agreement in 1974 & it's height bombed Dublin & Monaghan killing 34 civilians & injured 300 others, and just 2 weeks before the Dublin bombs the UVF bombed a Nationalist pub in Belfast killing 6 civilians & injuring 30.
In total 49 Catholics were killed in the month of May 1974, making it the most deadly month of the conflict for civilians.
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22-04-2021, 22:19   #32
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[Mod Note] This thread has been an informative and interesting thread. So just reminding that all posters are bound in an interest in these events from differing perspectives and so to avoid personalisation of discussions. Thanks.
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22-04-2021, 22:30   #33
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That's your prerogative to do so.

What would you say is the difference between a guerrilla war & a guerrilla insurgency?

If WW1 never took place & Carsons UVF carried out the violent threats they made to resist basically devo-max what would that have been?

It would have been an act of rebellion i.e an insurgency.
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22-04-2021, 22:36   #34
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My mother viewed them from the onset as well, she lived in Strabane from 1967 - 1981, the first person she seen get shot & klled was a deaf mute called Eammon McDevit who was shot in the back because he couldn't hear the soldier shouting.

It's a pretty famous case


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tr..._Strabane#1971

I also remember reading Strabane was the most bombed town in Europe in the 1970's.

What county did you observe the so called "Troubles" from, Armagh, Tyrone, Down etc...?

Fermanagh, Down and Antrim but I lived in the Republic most of the time. Being an oldie, born in 1959, I followed everything that happened over the years closely especially since I had relations and friends living in the affected areas. Anyway, that's me out as I've dragged the thread off topic again.
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24-04-2021, 17:58   #35
BalcombeSt4
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Fermanagh, Down and Antrim but I lived in the Republic most of the time. Being an oldie, born in 1959, I followed everything that happened over the years closely especially since I had relations and friends living in the affected areas. Anyway, that's me out as I've dragged the thread off topic again.
That's interesting.

So I doubt you'd be old enough to remember the "Border Campaign" do you recall the 64 Divis flag riots or the UVF's original 66 campaign, if their was tension around that & the 50th anniversary of 1916?

I remember visiting my cousins when I was in my early teens in Crossmaglen in the early 90's & I got no feeling that it was a dangerous place to be in or anything, although I wasn't very politically aware. And historically Crossmaglen wasn't dangerous for civilians, of course the place was virtually 100% nationalist so why would there be tension except with the British Army & RUC, who I do not remember seeing much of, this was in 1993 so maybe they were hiding from the snipers.
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25-04-2021, 13:12   #36
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Purely going off the definitions I can find on war the Troubles would seem to be quite clearly a civil war with an insurgency being more like what is currently happening in the Donbass
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25-04-2021, 21:49   #37
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Anyone with an interest in the topic of collusion with loyalist paramilitaries could do worse than read 'The Stalker Affair' by John Stalker. It's a few years since I read it but from what I remember, Stalker was second in command in the Manchester Police Force and was asked to conduct an investigation into a number of murders of Catholics/Nationalists in the North where the victims families had alleged collusion. It's a fantastic read and leaves you in no doubt that people at the highest level of the British government intervened to stop Stalker getting to the truth.
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02-05-2021, 08:08   #38
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Anyone with an interest in the topic of collusion with loyalist paramilitaries could do worse than read 'The Stalker Affair' by John Stalker. It's a few years since I read it but from what I remember, Stalker was second in command in the Manchester Police Force and was asked to conduct an investigation into a number of murders of Catholics/Nationalists in the North where the victims families had alleged collusion. It's a fantastic read and leaves you in no doubt that people at the highest level of the British government intervened to stop Stalker getting to the truth.
John started out disbelieving the allegations that the British government were helping terrorists but changed his mind after the push back he received from those in the security forces.
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02-05-2021, 08:47   #39
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MOD Note:
@ Ffff221.
Having two accounts post on the same thread violates the spirit of the History forum charter. Hence, please do not post on this thread again.
How come he is allowed two accounts?
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03-05-2021, 05:27   #40
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Anyone with an interest in the topic of collusion with loyalist paramilitaries could do worse than read 'The Stalker Affair' by John Stalker. It's a few years since I read it but from what I remember, Stalker was second in command in the Manchester Police Force and was asked to conduct an investigation into a number of murders of Catholics/Nationalists in the North where the victims families had alleged collusion. It's a fantastic read and leaves you in no doubt that people at the highest level of the British government intervened to stop Stalker getting to the truth.
There were three sets of killings in the space of a month alleged to have been carried out by the RUC Mobile Support Unit. On the 11 November 1982 three IRA men were shot at a road block in east Lurgan, on the 24th November two civilians were shot in a farm near Lurgan and on the 12 December two INLA men were shot at a checkpoint in Mullacreavie, this one happened 6 days after the INLA bombed the Droppin Well pub in north Derry.
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