St. Kilians German school open letter to DoES

cmssjone · 10-09-2020 10:07am

Wombatman wrote: »

Agreed. But if the choice is marking down high performers, in poor performing schools, when schools performance history considered, or marking down high performers, in exclusive schools, when school performance is ignored, I would suggest the latter is the only option.

As I've said before, a statistical model is a mathematical model to approximate reality. Variables that have an effect should be included. Where one goes to school does have a significant bearing on a student's result for the reasons mentioned already in this thread. If you create a flawed model then you will not have results that would approximate the reality that would have occurred if the LC had taken place. Just because it doesn't suit your narrative/sensibilities doesn't make it right.

The assumptions of the model are flawed. The statistical model is flawed. The results are flawed. Anyone can easily see this with the grade inflation that has taken place, without even looking at individual schools.

Wombatman · 10-09-2020 10:40am

cmssjone wrote: »

As I've said before, a statistical model is a mathematical model to approximate reality. Variables that have an effect should be included. Where one goes to school does have a significant bearing on a student's result for the reasons mentioned already in this thread. If you create a flawed model then you will not have results that would approximate the reality that would have occurred if the LC had taken place. Just because it doesn't suit your narrative/sensibilities doesn't make it right.

The assumptions of the model are flawed. The statistical model is flawed. The results are flawed. Anyone can easily see this with the grade inflation that has taken place, without even looking at individual schools.

Please don't go on about what you assume to be my narrative/sensibilities, just address the point in the post. Let me respond in the same manner as you.......

I think 'your narrative/sensibilities' have you blinkered to the unfairness of marking down high performing students in poor schools if school performance is considered. These students would have performed well also 'in reality' had they sat the exams. This reality is one you obviously have no interest in.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 10-09-2020 10:57am

Wombatman wrote: »

41% got H1s last year. Probably expecting around the same number this year based on last year and the trend from previous years. A drop down to 14% is massive and has to be looked at.

But 41% of what. That’s the issue, we don’t have the complete data. The school have always been squirrelly about numbers and from what I’ve heard there is growing disgruntlement among parents in that school for several years especially around standard of German.

Why haven’t we heard the same complaints from other schools or Gaelscoil which Kilians are happy to compare themselves to in this instance but when this point has been raised by parents they are very quick to point out that Kilians is not a full immersion school and should not be compared to Irish speaking schools?
Why is it that this particular school is constantly doing numerical gymnastics about LC results, why is it this school has an unusual governance with no school patron? This story is just one part of a bigger picture and unless you have all the data then it’s difficult to comment but I expect that the reason the school has gone public is due to mounting pressure from parents at that school around standard of German and other things.

Does anyone know if other schools have gone public about the grading system?

cmssjone · 10-09-2020 11:05am

Wombatman wrote: »

Please don't go on about what you assume to be my narrative/sensibilities, just address the point in the post. Let me respond in the same manner as you.......

I think 'your narrative/sensibilities' have you blinkered to the unfairness of marking down high performing students in poor schools if school performance is considered. These students would have performed well also 'in reality' had they sat the exams. This reality is one you obviously have no interest in.

I totally agree with you that there would have been some high performing students being marked down based on their school. This would be the case in any statistical model. To penalise a whole tranche of higher achievers in high achieving schools is not the answer though. If the model had been set up correctly, It would have been easier to spot and correct these outliers.

Wombatman · 10-09-2020 11:16am

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

But 41% of what. That’s the issue, we don’t have the complete data. The school have always been squirrelly about numbers and from what I’ve heard there is growing disgruntlement among parents in that school for several years especially around standard of German.

Why haven’t we heard the same complaints from other schools or Gaelscoil which Kilians are happy to compare themselves to in this instance but when this point has been raised by parents they are very quick to point out that Kilians is not a full immersion school and should not be compared to Irish speaking schools?
Why is it that this particular school is constantly doing numerical gymnastics about LC results, why is it this school has an unusual governance with no school patron? This story is just one part of a bigger picture and unless you have all the data then it’s difficult to comment but I expect that the reason the school has gone public is due to mounting pressure from parents at that school around standard of German and other things.

Does anyone know if other schools have gone public about the grading system?

41% of their student that sat the German exam. Nothing confusing about that.

Peterd66 · 10-09-2020 11:30am

cmssjone wrote: »

I totally agree with you that there would have been some high performing students being marked down based on their school. This would be the case in any statistical model. To penalise a whole tranche of higher achievers in high achieving schools is not the answer though. If the model had been set up correctly, It would have been easier to spot and correct these outliers.

I agree entirely with your very well made and well written post at 10.07. However I am not sure this subsequent post is entirely accurate.

In a poor performing school an accurate statistical model based on historic data (as one input to the model) would allow for outliers such as high performing students in low performing schools and thus they would most likely not be marked down as they would fit the model bell curve for the school.

rainbowtrout · 10-09-2020 11:54am

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

But 41% of what. That’s the issue, we don’t have the complete data. The school have always been squirrelly about numbers and from what I’ve heard there is growing disgruntlement among parents in that school for several years especially around standard of German.

Why haven’t we heard the same complaints from other schools or Gaelscoil which Kilians are happy to compare themselves to in this instance but when this point has been raised by parents they are very quick to point out that Kilians is not a full immersion school and should not be compared to Irish speaking schools?
Why is it that this particular school is constantly doing numerical gymnastics about LC results, why is it this school has an unusual governance with no school patron? This story is just one part of a bigger picture and unless you have all the data then it’s difficult to comment but I expect that the reason the school has gone public is due to mounting pressure from parents at that school around standard of German and other things.

Does anyone know if other schools have gone public about the grading system?

What do you mean by constantly. This is the first time predicted grades has been used, they wrote one letter and published it on their website.

What has their patronage or lack of got to do with it?

Wombatman · 10-09-2020 12:15pm

Peterd66 wrote: »

I agree entirely with your very well made and well written post at 10.07. However I am not sure this subsequent post is entirely accurate.

In a poor performing school an accurate statistical model based on historic data (as one input to the model) would allow for outliers such as high performing students in low performing schools and thus they would most likely not be marked down as they would fit the model bell curve for the school.

This year, with schools largely shut since March and no exams, education authorities in England ran the predicted grades through an algorithm, intended to standardize results, that compared them with schools’ past performance. That meant high-achieving students at under-performing schools, many in deprived areas, saw their marks downgraded, while students at above-average schools kept their predicted grades.

https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2020/08/17/uk-scraps-exam-grading-system-that_ap.html

v638sg7k1a92bx · 10-09-2020 12:17pm

Wombatman wrote: »

41% of their student that sat the German exam. Nothing confusing about that.

Exactly and how many students sat the German exam?

cmssjone · 10-09-2020 12:26pm

Peterd66 wrote: »

I agree entirely with your very well made and well written post at 10.07. However I am not sure this subsequent post is entirely accurate.

In a poor performing school an accurate statistical model based on historic data (as one input to the model) would allow for outliers such as high performing students in low performing schools and thus they would most likely not be marked down as they would fit the model bell curve for the school.

I was trying to dash off a response before class. You are indeed correct. An accurate statistical model would allow for this.

Peterd66 · 10-09-2020 12:36pm

Wombatman wrote: »

https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2020/08/17/uk-scraps-exam-grading-system-that_ap.html

This is because the teacher grades at the lower performing schools were more over inflated than the grades at the higher performing schools and the standardised model correctly was attempting to adjust for this. And before you ask me how I know, it is because the accurate standardisation model was adjusting the lower performing schools much more than the higher performing schools.

However the high performers in low performing schools would have retained their genuinely deserved grades, as they would have been ranked at top of the class and the statistical model would have been looking for a level of high performers in low performing schools.

Unfortunately politicians in both UK and Ireland hadn't the moral courage to accept an unpalatable but ultimately accurate message and eliminated this key factor from the model.

Wombatman · 10-09-2020 12:38pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Exactly and how many students sat the German exam?

You have enough information to work it, not that it make a difference to the overall argument.

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/0908/1163950-german-results-st-killians/

14% of Leaving Certificate students at St Kilian's Deutsche Schule received H1 grades in German this year, compared to 41% last year.

....and

Ms Lynch said the school had objective data which attested to its students' strength in the language, and which supported the 19 H1 grades awarded to students in estimated marks arrived at by their teachers.

In all but 6 cases those marks were downgraded by the standardisation process carried out by the Department of Education as part of the calculated grades process.

6 = 14%. You can do the rest.

Interesting that they were predicting 19 and claim to have objective data to prove it. If 6 is 14% then 19 is a good bit higher than last years 41%.

Wombatman · 10-09-2020 12:40pm

Peterd66 wrote: »

This is because the teacher grades at the lower performing schools were more over inflated than the grades at the higher performing schools and the standardised model correctly was attempting to adjust for this.

Source?

v638sg7k1a92bx · 10-09-2020 12:47pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

What do you mean by constantly. This is the first time predicted grades has been used, they wrote one letter and published it on their website.

What has their patronage or lack of got to do with it?

First time publicly but there is an ongoing mantra in the school that the reason their University feeder results are different to other school is because they have a high proportion of international students who pursue third level abroad and that's the reason their numbers are down. Point is that there is always a wishy washy story with this school.

The issue around patronage just highlights one of several anomalies with this school. Point is that all this talk about % and numbers is moot until you see all the data which the BOM is provided with every year.

Peterd66 · 10-09-2020 12:49pm

There are a number of campaigns and legal cases started but are misguided.

The main campaign is to reinstate the teachers grades either individually or across the board. The dept of Ed. will not and cannot do this individually, so the impact of all pupils getting teachers grades will be many pupils grades will be inflated, particularly in low performing schools, CAO points will shoot up and most people will be in the same position they are today. And impact the deferred 2019 students even more.

They only campaign to keep fairness and continuity, would be to reintroduce the standardisation based on school history, but politically that boat has sailed. (This would also address the 2019 deferred students issues).

So the only pragmatic solution is what Simon Harris is trying to do, increase the supply of places so the impact is minimised.

Peterd66 · 10-09-2020 12:50pm

Wombatman wrote: »

Source?

And before you ask me how I know, it is because the accurate standardisation model was adjusting the lower performing schools much more than the higher performing schools.

fred252 · 10-09-2020 12:56pm

Wombatman wrote: »

You have enough information to work it, not that it make a difference to the overall argument.

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/0908/1163950-german-results-st-killians/

....and

6 = 14%. You can do the rest.

Interesting that they were predicting 19 and claim to have objective data to prove it. If 6 is 14% then 19 is a good bit higher than last years 41%.

6 = 14% => 43 students in total. 19/43 = 44 %. Not that much higher than 41 %.

killbillvol2 · 10-09-2020 1:02pm

fred252 wrote: »

6 = 14% => 43 students in total. 19/43 = 44 %. Not that much higher than 41 %.

Correct. It's a difference of one student.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 10-09-2020 1:10pm

Wombatman wrote: »

You have enough information to work it, not that it make a difference to the overall argument.

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/0908/1163950-german-results-st-killians/

....and

6 = 14%. You can do the rest.

Interesting that they were predicting 19 and claim to have objective data to prove it. If 6 is 14% then 19 is a good bit higher than last years 41%.

Is that 14% of LC students in total or just the ones that sat German?

If 14% equals 6 students then that would suggest that the total number who sat the German exam was 42. Considering that it is supposed to be a Deutsche Schule where the kids learn German from the age of 4, wouldn't you expect every student to sit the Higher level German exam?

If the total number of students who sat German is actually 42, that means that either 6th year class of 2020 is only 42 or only 42 students out of 6th year sat the exam which seems like quite a low number to me for what is quite a big school. So if only 42 student sit Higher level German for the LC, that in itself raises a questions as to why a German language school where students learn German from the age of 4 only have 42 students sitting LC German exam? Surely all the 6th year students would sit the higher level German exam considering they spent most of their life in a German school? That's why I say it would be good to know the total number of 6th year students.

Again, I could be wrong as I haven't seen all the data, but the point is that we appear to be talking about very low number of students in one subject!!! We cannot extrapolate any reliable assumptions about the grading system based on such a tiny sample size. Instead of pointing the finger elsewhere maybe the school management should look internally as to why so few students are sitting higher level German in a school where (as the principal says) "the vast majority" of students have strong links to Germany and where they learn the language from the age of 4? Or maybe the school is not as proficient in German as they would like to think.

Wombatman · 10-09-2020 1:11pm

Peterd66 wrote: »

And before you ask me how I know, it is because the accurate standardisation model was adjusting the lower performing schools much more than the higher performing schools.

Source?

v638sg7k1a92bx · 10-09-2020 1:11pm

Peterd66 wrote: »

There are a number of campaigns and legal cases started but are misguided.

The main campaign is to reinstate the teachers grades either individually or across the board. The dept of Ed. will not and cannot do this individually, so the impact of all pupils getting teachers grades will be many pupils grades will be inflated, particularly in low performing schools, CAO points will shoot up and most people will be in the same position they are today. And impact the deferred 2019 students even more.

They only campaign to keep fairness and continuity, would be to reintroduce the standardisation based on school history, but politically that boat has sailed. (This would also address the 2019 deferred students issues).

So the only pragmatic solution is what Simon Harris is trying to do, increase the supply of places so the impact is minimised.

Those legal cases are doomed to fail. Bluffing.

Peterd66 · 10-09-2020 1:24pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote:

Those legal cases are doomed to fail. Bluffing.

The legal case is actually very strong as it will be very easy to prove people have been subjected to an inaccurate model.

However the remedy for the reasons above, will be very hard to execute.

rainbowtrout · 10-09-2020 1:27pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

First time publicly but there is an ongoing mantra in the school that the reason their University feeder results are different to other school is because they have a high proportion of international students who pursue third level abroad and that's the reason their numbers are down. Point is that there is always a wishy washy story with this school.

The issue around patronage just highlights one of several anomalies with this school. Point is that all this talk about % and numbers is moot until you see all the data which the BOM is provided with every year.

That’s not wishy washy, it is a valid reason. And it has nothing to do with this issue.

You just seem to have a set against them for some reason

rainbowtrout · 10-09-2020 1:30pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Those legal cases are doomed to fail. Bluffing.

Rank wasn’t preserved within a class. Very hard to justify why. Why bother asking teachers to rank if it’s not going to be preserved? Why ask teachers to provide calculated grades and tell them that school past performance will be taken into account and then move the goalposts in August and say it won’t. Students weren’t graded by DES according to the guidelines that they set out. I’d say a student /school has a very good case

v638sg7k1a92bx · 10-09-2020 1:48pm

Peterd66 wrote: »

The legal case is actually very strong as it will be very easy to prove people have been subjected to an inaccurate model.

However the remedy for the reasons above, will be very hard to execute.

What are legal grounds. What statutory provision will they be referring to in their statement of claim? When you weigh up the time, energy and cost - what school is going to legally challenge the DoES with their endless resources and time a case like this would not be resolved within 2 years.

Peterd66 · 10-09-2020 2:05pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote:

What are legal grounds..

The legal grounds will be the grades were adjusted with an inaccurate model, extremely easily to prove, regardless of statutory provisions, if there are any covering this.

I'd agree it will be time consuming and ultimately the remedy when won will prove difficult to execute and thus the indvdual or school would need to figure want they want to achieve out of it, before starting.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 10-09-2020 2:11pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That’s not wishy washy, it is a valid reason. And it has nothing to do with this issue.

You just seem to have a set against them for some reason

It's not really when you look at the numbers. Realistically how many students go to study abroad and is it that much different to other schools?

A 6th year of 42 students - how many go to study abroad? Anecdotally speaking, "real" international students don't tend to sit the leaving cert and students who do sit the leaving cert do so because they want to go to University in Ireland as a first preference.

This is what I'm talking about, a lot of the statements coming out of that school make no sense and when you combine that with other things, it makes you question the rationale behind making that public statement.

I hope that I'm wrong but I have heard that there are a lot of unsatisfied customers in that school and the LC German results appear to confirm the concerns of many parents. My suspicion is that yesterdays statement was to deflect away from the reality of what the overall standard of German is like in that school.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 10-09-2020 2:14pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Rank wasn’t preserved within a class. Very hard to justify why. Why bother asking teachers to rank if it’s not going to be preserved? Why ask teachers to provide calculated grades and tell them that school past performance will be taken into account and then move the goalposts in August and say it won’t. Students weren’t graded by DES according to the guidelines that they set out. I’d say a student /school has a very good case

But again, what exactly is the claim. "That's not fair" is generally not considered a strong legal argument.

Peterd66 · 10-09-2020 2:31pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote:

But again, what exactly is the claim. "That's not fair" is generally not considered a strong legal argument.

Though fairness is a legal concept, if it were me I would be arguing the grade is actually incorrect and inaccurate because the standardisation was statistically incorrect. It would be very easy to get any data analytics expert to give an expert assessment on whether the exclusion of historic school profiling increased or distorted the accuracy of calculated grades.

The answer is it distorted the mathematical accuracy.

Treppen · 10-09-2020 2:48pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Is that 14% of LC students in total or just the ones that sat German?

If 14% equals 6 students then that would suggest that the total number who sat the German exam was 42. Considering that it is supposed to be a Deutsche Schule where the kids learn German from the age of 4, wouldn't you expect every student to sit the Higher level German exam?

If the total number of students who sat German is actually 42, that means that either 6th year class of 2020 is only 42 or only 42 students out of 6th year sat the exam which seems like quite a low number to me for what is quite a big school. So if only 42 student sit Higher level German for the LC, that in itself raises a questions as to why a German language school where students learn German from the age of 4 only have 42 students sitting LC German exam? Surely all the 6th year students would sit the higher level German exam considering they spent most of their life in a German school? That's why I say it would be good to know the total number of 6th year students.

Again, I could be wrong as I haven't seen all the data, but the point is that we appear to be talking about very low number of students in one subject!!! We cannot extrapolate any reliable assumptions about the grading system based on such a tiny sample size. Instead of pointing the finger elsewhere maybe the school management should look internally as to why so few students are sitting higher level German in a school where (as the principal says) "the vast majority" of students have strong links to Germany and where they learn the language from the age of 4? Or maybe the school is not as proficient in German as they would like to think.

Total enrollment is about 390

Usually fee paying around there is bottom heavy at 1st year as there's a few drop offs to the institute.

So bit more than 60 on average per each year group. Increase the lower end and decrease the upper end and yould get about 50 in 6th year at a rough guess.

So 42 doing German in 6th years is reasonable if there's no absolute requirement to sit German.
Students are tied to 7 subjects so maybe they Excel in an alternative to German... French !!

42 out of an optimistic 60, is over 70% taking German in 6th year. That looks good enough for me.

Again.... Don't mix up proficiency in speaking German with proficiency in Sitting German for the leaving cert.

forgottenhills · 10-09-2020 3:05pm

Peterd66 wrote: »

Though fairness is a legal concept, if it were me I would be arguing the grade is actually incorrect and inaccurate because the standardisation was statistically incorrect. It would be very easy to get any data analytics expert to give an expert assessment on whether the exclusion of historic school profiling increased or distorted the accuracy of calculated grades.

The answer is it distorted the mathematical accuracy.

Historic school profiling is a very nebulous matter and would be hard to prove in court imo.

For instance the number of very high performers (those getting H1s) does vary quite a fair bit in all schools from year. You would think that the same cohort of students coming in every year would give the same number of elite results but it does vary quite a bit at the highest levels although the average results might be much the same from year to year. The situation is analogous to anyone who has ever been involved with a schools sports team or junior club over a number of years. The reality is that one years crop of very strong players can number six or seven while the next year's crop only has one or two elite level players.

To me the strongest grounds for appeal would be to look at an individual's JC or LC mock exam results and build a case based on that rather than the schools history.

crossman47 · 10-09-2020 3:08pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Rank wasn’t preserved within a class.

Not true AFAIK.

cmssjone · 10-09-2020 3:42pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Is that 14% of LC students in total or just the ones that sat German?

If 14% equals 6 students then that would suggest that the total number who sat the German exam was 42. Considering that it is supposed to be a Deutsche Schule where the kids learn German from the age of 4, wouldn't you expect every student to sit the Higher level German exam?

If the total number of students who sat German is actually 42, that means that either 6th year class of 2020 is only 42 or only 42 students out of 6th year sat the exam which seems like quite a low number to me for what is quite a big school. So if only 42 student sit Higher level German for the LC, that in itself raises a questions as to why a German language school where students learn German from the age of 4 only have 42 students sitting LC German exam? Surely all the 6th year students would sit the higher level German exam considering they spent most of their life in a German school? That's why I say it would be good to know the total number of 6th year students.

Again, I could be wrong as I haven't seen all the data, but the point is that we appear to be talking about very low number of students in one subject!!! We cannot extrapolate any reliable assumptions about the grading system based on such a tiny sample size. Instead of pointing the finger elsewhere maybe the school management should look internally as to why so few students are sitting higher level German in a school where (as the principal says) "the vast majority" of students have strong links to Germany and where they learn the language from the age of 4? Or maybe the school is not as proficient in German as they would like to think.

You seem to be quite wrong a lot. Kilian’s has relatively small Leaving Cert numbers, c 40 - 50. It could be that last years intake was 42. If you have such a problem with how Kilian’s is run (which you appear to do), why don’t you join the BOM and do something proactive about it?

Peterd66 · 10-09-2020 3:49pm

forgottenhills wrote:

Historic school profiling is a very nebulous matter and would be hard to prove in court imo.

I wouldn't disagree it's nebulous, but from a pure math/stat point of view it would be infinitely more accurate than say national historic profile that was used.

rainbowtrout · 10-09-2020 3:50pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

What are legal grounds. What statutory provision will they be referring to in their statement of claim? When you weigh up the time, energy and cost - what school is going to legally challenge the DoES with their endless resources and time a case like this would not be resolved within 2 years.

Rebecca Carter went to the High Court two years ago and her case was sorted out pronto, and it instigated a whole change in how the appeals process operates. It will only take one case to open the floodgates. Students/schools would be arguing that it is the difference between going to college this year and taking a year out. They would also be using her case as a precedent to getting it sorted sooner rather than later.

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

It's not really when you look at the numbers. Realistically how many students go to study abroad and is it that much different to other schools?

A 6th year of 42 students - how many go to study abroad? Anecdotally speaking, "real" international students don't tend to sit the leaving cert and students who do sit the leaving cert do so because they want to go to University in Ireland as a first preference.

This is what I'm talking about, a lot of the statements coming out of that school make no sense and when you combine that with other things, it makes you question the rationale behind making that public statement.

I hope that I'm wrong but I have heard that there are a lot of unsatisfied customers in that school and the LC German results appear to confirm the concerns of many parents. My suspicion is that yesterdays statement was to deflect away from the reality of what the overall standard of German is like in that school.

If many of their students are German and first or second generation German and sitting a separate exam that would be accepted to study in German university then it's not unrealistic to think that there could be a sizeable cohort of students attending who will go abroad.

I work in a run of the mill rural school and we have three or four students go abroad every year. The UK is the most popular, but also Hungary and the Netherlands. No reason why St Killian's wouldn't have anyone like that. It's really not unusual. If even 4 students go abroad they are looking at 10% of their cohort.

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

But again, what exactly is the claim. "That's not fair" is generally not considered a strong legal argument.

Well it is from a discriminatory point of view. If students have not had the guidelines set out applied to them in the way that they were applied to the majority of other students and there is no real evidence to suggest why they have been treated in this manner then it is unfair. This goes beyond St. Killian's. There are lots of cases of students pulled down a grade and students on a similar grade in their class left unchanged. There are students who have been pulled down from H1 to H3 but the H2s in the class left unchanged so they've dropped down the ranking in their class. How was that decision made?

Treppen · 10-09-2020 3:54pm

crossman47 wrote: »

Not true AFAIK.

Few cases where rank was ignored, others kept their lower grade but the higher grade point students got bumped down lower

v638sg7k1a92bx · 10-09-2020 4:42pm

Treppen wrote: »

Total enrollment is about 390

Usually fee paying around there is bottom heavy at 1st year as there's a few drop offs to the institute.

So bit more than 60 on average per each year group. Increase the lower end and decrease the upper end and yould get about 50 in 6th year at a rough guess.

So 42 doing German in 6th years is reasonable if there's no absolute requirement to sit German.
Students are tied to 7 subjects so maybe they Excel in an alternative to German... French !!

42 out of an optimistic 60, is over 70% taking German in 6th year. That looks good enough for me.

Again.... Don't mix up proficiency in speaking German with proficiency in Sitting German for the leaving cert.

Again, I don't know the exact numbers but I would have though that there were more students in 6th year than 50, I'd expect around 60 but either way, 42 seems like a really small number of students for such a large school.

Regarding the proficiency in language versus sitting an exam, with all due respect, I don't really accept that because the students have been learning the language from the age of 4. By the time they're 18 that shouldn't be an issue, it's not a German literature exam. Regarding taking French over German, I would just go back to my point about the point about learning German from the age of 4, why would you pick a different language over one that you've been speaking for most of your life?

rainbowtrout · 10-09-2020 4:48pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Again, I don't know the exact numbers but I would have though that there were more students in 6th year than 50, I'd expect around 60 but either way, 42 seems like a really small number of students for such a large school.

Regarding the proficiency in language versus sitting an exam, with all due respect, I don't really accept that because the students have been learning the language from the age of 4. By the time they're 18 that shouldn't be an issue, it's not a German literature exam. Regarding taking French over German, I would just go back to my point about the point about learning German from the age of 4, why would you pick a different language over one that you've been speaking for most of your life?

I went to school with a girl whose mother was German so she spoke German fluently but took French for leaving cert so she would be proficient in both. Not everyone is just looking at the grade aspect of it.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 10-09-2020 4:51pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I went to school with a girl whose mother was German so she spoke German fluently but took French for leaving cert so she would be proficient in both. Not everyone is just looking at the grade aspect of it.

That doesn't make sense to me, maybe it happens but seems highly unlikely that somebody would choose another language over one that they spoke fluently.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 10-09-2020 4:53pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Rebecca Carter went to the High Court two years ago and her case was sorted out pronto, and it instigated a whole change in how the appeals process operates. It will only take one case to open the floodgates. Students/schools would be arguing that it is the difference between going to college this year and taking a year out. They would also be using her case as a precedent to getting it sorted sooner rather than later.

If many of their students are German and first or second generation German and sitting a separate exam that would be accepted to study in German university then it's not unrealistic to think that there could be a sizeable cohort of students attending who will go abroad.

I work in a run of the mill rural school and we have three or four students go abroad every year. The UK is the most popular, but also Hungary and the Netherlands. No reason why St Killian's wouldn't have anyone like that. It's really not unusual. If even 4 students go abroad they are looking at 10% of their cohort.

Well it is from a discriminatory point of view. If students have not had the guidelines set out applied to them in the way that they were applied to the majority of other students and there is no real evidence to suggest why they have been treated in this manner then it is unfair. This goes beyond St. Killian's. There are lots of cases of students pulled down a grade and students on a similar grade in their class left unchanged. There are students who have been pulled down from H1 to H3 but the H2s in the class left unchanged so they've dropped down the ranking in their class. How was that decision made?

Rebecca Carter was challenging the delay in the correction and appeals process AFAIK. I don't see that here.

Treppen · 10-09-2020 4:59pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Again, I don't know the exact numbers but I would have though that there were more students in 6th year than 50, I'd expect around 60 but either way, 42 seems like a really small number of students for such a large school.

Regarding the proficiency in language versus sitting an exam, with all due respect, I don't really accept that because the students have been learning the language from the age of 4. By the time they're 18 that shouldn't be an issue, it's not a German literature exam. Regarding taking French over German, I would just go back to my point about the point about learning German from the age of 4, why would you pick a different language over one that you've been speaking for most of your life?

All students in the school have been learning the language since age of 4?

But yet you doubt their proficiency?

You doubt the principals assertions that the H1 rates from (by your understanding! Speakers from age 4) is around 41%

You think a population of 390 in a school is large?

You think the teachers predicted grades were incorrect at 19 h1s is wrong!

Das kommt mir komisch vor. ich bin raus.

Treppen · 10-09-2020 5:03pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Rebecca Carter was challenging the delay in the correction and appeals process AFAIK. I don't see that here.

Although the homeschooled lad from Galway got in lively enough too.

But either way news report on rte radio said court cases were full for sept and October!

Who knows, though, I'd say we'll see Norma waving goodbye if they go through.

forgottenhills · 10-09-2020 5:27pm

Peterd66 wrote: »

I wouldn't disagree it's nebulous, but from a pure math/stat point of view it would be infinitely more accurate than say national historic profile that was used.

In any appeal why not base the case on the students own history in terms of the students own JC, summer and mock exam results rather than on the school attended? Plenty of thickies or non-tryers attend good schools.

Peterd66 · 10-09-2020 5:42pm

forgottenhills wrote:

In any appeal why not base the case on the students own history in terms of the students own JC, summer and mock exam results rather than on the school attended? Plenty of thickies or non-tryers attend good schools.

Completely agree but I think you would have to prove the existing methodology was logically flawed but advocating another process.

titan18 · 10-09-2020 5:45pm

Institute with a statement now too

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0910/1164462-dublin-grinds-school-covid/

v638sg7k1a92bx · 10-09-2020 5:49pm

Treppen wrote: »

All students in the school have been learning the language since age of 4?

But yet you doubt their proficiency?

You doubt the principals assertions that the H1 rates from (by your understanding! Speakers from age 4) is around 41%

You think a population of 390 in a school is large?

You think the teachers predicted grades were incorrect at 19 h1s is wrong!

Das kommt mir komisch vor. ich bin raus.

The school principal was quoted as saying the "vast majority" of its students would have a strong connection with Germany, many have German parents, and others would have lived in the country in the past. I'll admit that it's a fairly wishy washy statement but their proficiency appears to be reflected in the LC results which is the topic of the thread.
Btw, I'm not saying anything new here, the issue around the standard of German in the "Deutsche Schule" is something that parents and students have been struggling with for years.

I don't believe I said a "population of 390 in a school is large" if you can show me that specific statement I'm willing to retract it or maybe you're trying to put words in my mouth which is usually an indication you're losing the debate.

Again I don't think I said "You think the teachers predicted grades were incorrect at 19 h1s is wrong" show it to me and I'll retract but reality is that the school has a financial interest to ensure students do well in German.

All I'm saying is that in this case, very hard to draw and conclusions on such a small sample size and in one particular subject especially where there have been known issues around the standard of German for some time. I expect many people will not be surprised by these results.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 10-09-2020 5:51pm

Treppen wrote: »

Although the homeschooled lad from Galway got in lively enough too.

But either way news report on rte radio said court cases were full for sept and October!

Who knows, though, I'd say we'll see Norma waving goodbye if they go through.

The students also have the option of sitting the exam in November so I can't see how a judicial review would succeed. It will be interesting to see if some of those students who sat the German exam decide to repeat the exam in November and get very high marks...

cmssjone · 10-09-2020 5:56pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

Again, I don't know the exact numbers but I would have though that there were more students in 6th year than 50, I'd expect around 60 but either way, 42 seems like a really small number of students for such a large school.

Regarding the proficiency in language versus sitting an exam, with all due respect, I don't really accept that because the students have been learning the language from the age of 4. By the time they're 18 that shouldn't be an issue, it's not a German literature exam. Regarding taking French over German, I would just go back to my point about the point about learning German from the age of 4, why would you pick a different language over one that you've been speaking for most of your life?

You don’t seem to know anything tbh. I have furnished you with factual information which you are doing your best to ignore. Kilian’s is not a large school and classes of below 50 are the norm at LC level. There was an intake of 120 pupils this year in 1st class, with less than half of them coming from the Junior school. This means that 1st year is where many students have their first experience of learning German. All students take German. It feels that you have been wronged in the past by Kilian’s. You come across as one of those demanding and difficult parents that schools are quite frankly delighted to be rid of.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 10-09-2020 7:23pm

cmssjone wrote: »

You don’t seem to know anything tbh. I have furnished you with factual information which you are doing your best to ignore. Kilian’s is not a large school and classes of below 50 are the norm at LC level. There was an intake of 120 pupils this year in 1st class, with less than half of them coming from the Junior school. This means that 1st year is where many students have their first experience of learning German. All students take German. It feels that you have been wronged in the past by Kilian’s. You come across as one of those demanding and difficult parents that schools are quite frankly delighted to be rid of.

I've read your comments I wouldn't call them facts just your observations probably based on your own vested interest but that doesn't change the reality that the standard of German in that school is very poor for what is supposed to be a Deutsche Schule irrespective of whether they started in kindergarten or in first year. Parents and students have a legitimate expectation that if they attend a Deutsche Schule that classes would be delivered in German similar to have classes are delivered in Irish in a Gaelscoil.

The public statement yesterday will just confirm what many people have already thought about Kilian's for some and it will also draw attention to the schools own short comings. I expect the DoES will not forget this very quickly which is even more bad news for Kilian's considering their unusual governance and corporate structure.

cmssjone · 10-09-2020 7:49pm

Clayton Purring Cow wrote: »

I've read your comments I wouldn't call them facts just your observations probably based on your own vested interest but that doesn't change the reality that the standard of German in that school is very poor for what is supposed to be a Deutsche Schule irrespective of whether they started in kindergarten or in first year. Parents and students have a legitimate expectation that if they attend a Deutsche Schule that classes would be delivered in German similar to have classes are delivered in Irish in a Gaelscoil.

The public statement yesterday will just confirm what many people have already thought about Kilian's for some and it will also draw attention to the schools own short comings. I expect the DoES will not forget this very quickly which is even more bad news for Kilian's considering their unusual governance and corporate structure.

I have no vested interest in Kilian’s. I do not work there, nor the LFI, but I do know many of the staff in both schools. I have given you facts regarding numbers that took the LC and the 1st year enrolment numbers this year. You are not able to provide me with any facts, only completely vague unsubstantiated rubbish. Many people etc... The vitriol that you are spouting has nothing to do with this thread. Over 40% of students scored a H1 last year in German which would disavow your assertion that the standard of German “is very poor”.

It doesn’t matter what the DoES think with regards to Kilian’s. In a normal year, students would not be subject to a flawed algorithm and would achieve the results in German that would be expected ie c 40%. Most subject teachers would be delighted with this result.

Why are you so angry with Kilian’s?

St. Kilians German school open letter to DoES

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