Breitling avenger 43mm auto

scwazrh · 15-08-2020 12:54am #1

I’ve seen one new at a very good price (€2630)and always fancied a Breitling.
Seem to be very good , a return to Breitling of old to an extent.
.I know some people think Breitling try a bit too much on the flashy side but I like a watch with a bit of bling for the right occasion!

Any opinions on this watch?

redlead · 15-08-2020 7:36pm

scwazrh wrote: »

Any opinions on this watch?

I'm presuming that it's this one with black dial?

Breitling Avenger (Submodel)
€2,630
https://www.chrono24.co.uk/breitling/breitling-avenger-automatic-43--id15553202.htm?SETLANG=en_GB&SETCURR=EUR

For the money that's a really good watch. The level of finishing is top notch on it. Pretty sure you are essentially getting the ETA 2824 movement in that instead of the Tudor movement is the only downside but there is nothing wrong with a 2824, it's a proven workhorse and will still be COSC certified because its a Breitling. 300m water resistant too.

I love it so would say go for it all day long but I'm a Breitling fan boy. The only warning id have is that 43mm is big enough. I personally don't like wearing over 42mm so maybe try one on first unless you are already familiar with sizing.

scwazrh · 15-08-2020 8:02pm

redlead wrote: »

I'm presuming that it's this one with black dial?

Breitling Avenger (Submodel)
€2,630
https://www.chrono24.co.uk/breitling/breitling-avenger-automatic-43--id15553202.htm?SETLANG=en_GB&SETCURR=EUR

For the money that's a really good watch. The level of finishing is top notch on it. Pretty sure you are essentially getting the ETA 2824 movement in that instead of the Tudor movement is the only downside but there is nothing wrong with a 2824, it's a proven workhorse and will still be COSC certified because its a Breitling. 300m water resistant too.

I love it so would say go for it all day long but I'm a Breitling fan boy. The only warning id have is that 43mm is big enough. I personally don't like wearing over 42mm so maybe try one on first unless you are already familiar with sizing.

That’s the one .Ive a couple of tag Heuer in 43mm so happy with the size .Think I’ll go for it , if I’m not mad about it I’m sure it will be an easy sell come Xmas !

redlead · 15-08-2020 8:09pm

Go for it. An alternative Breitling for similar money if you wanted a black dial with a little more bling is the Galactic. I love the bracelet on it.

Breitling Galactic 41
€3,038
https://www.chrono24.co.uk/breitling/galactic-big-date-41mm-a49350l2c929-stainless-steel-mens-watch--id15358310.htm?SETLANG=en_GB&SETCURR=EUR

893bet · 15-08-2020 8:15pm

scwazrh wrote: »

That’s the one .Ive a couple of tag Heuer in 43mm so happy with the size .Think I’ll go for it , if I’m not mad about it I’m sure it will be an easy sell come Xmas !

Easy sell at a 40 percent discount to what you paid!

scwazrh · 15-08-2020 9:54pm

893bet wrote: »

Easy sell at a 40 percent discount to what you paid!

If you can find me one at 40% discount now I’ll give you a finders fee for it

893bet · 15-08-2020 10:23pm

Supply demand.

If you buy new at that price assume a 30-40 percent loss if sold in the first year. Don’t fool yourself into thinking you will be able to get back what you paid for it or a small loss.

Par for the course for every brand bar a few obvious exceptions.

scwazrh · 15-08-2020 10:41pm

893bet wrote: »

Supply demand.

If you buy new at that price assume a 30-40 percent loss if sold in the first year. Don’t fool yourself into thinking you will be able to get back what you paid for it or a small loss.

Par for the course for every brand bar a few obvious exceptions.

Will you stop . Do you really think a watch that is €3800 new from an AD discounted to €2600 grey market is going to be worth only €1500 in 3 months ?
Someone’s fooling themselves but it’s not me .

893bet · 15-08-2020 10:48pm

scwazrh wrote: »

Will you stop . Do you really think a watch that is €3800 new from an AD discounted to €2600 grey market is going to be worth only €1500 in 3 months ?
Someone’s fooling themselves but it’s not me .

Do you really think someone is going to pay you 2300 for it second hand when they can get it new for 2600....! Expect a significant difference. Maybe not 40 percent but I think you would be hard pressed to see more than 1800.

RRP means nothing when greys (and ADs) throw off 20-30 percent at will. Tis only the odd fool paying 3800.

scwazrh · 15-08-2020 11:40pm

893bet wrote: »

Do you really think someone is going to pay you 2300 for it second hand when they can get it new for 2600....! Expect a significant difference. Maybe not 40 percent but I think you would be hard pressed to see more than 1800.

RRP means nothing when greys (and ADs) throw off 20-30 percent at will. Tis only the odd fool paying 3800.

Yeah I reckon at silly season a €3800 watch in as new condition would hit €23 - €2400 on adverts .

Not everyone searches out the cheapest price otherwise Only the cheapest would sell.
If I could find that watch 6 month old for €1800 I would buy it instead of new but there’s none available at €1800

893bet · 16-08-2020 9:02am

scwazrh wrote: »

Yeah I reckon at silly season a €3800 watch in as new condition would hit €23 - €2400 on adverts .

Not everyone searches out the cheapest price otherwise Only the cheapest would sell.
If I could find that watch 6 month old for €1800 I would buy it instead of new but there’s none available at €1800

I think you would be disappointed on adverts with lots “offers”.

Anyone spending 2-3k on a breitling will have a fair amount of research done IMO. Proof will be in the pudding.

There prob is none for sale at 1800. Can you find some at 2300? Maybe. But would you buy it? **** no. I can brand new from a dealer for a few 100 more.

Omega/breitling/tag are in general 40-50 percent off RRP on the second hand market. Recently tried selling my PO which (12 years old but serviced by Omega recently) and couldn’t even get an offer my asking was less than 50% of current RRP. No demand. I have an in warranty good as new Stowa at a 45% discount from RRP and again nada but a few tyre kickers.

Don’t forget the reason the grey has the watch at 2600 is that some AD is slipping this 3800 euro watch out their back door for 2200 or so......demand ain’t there.

redlead · 16-08-2020 9:31am

My twopence worth is that you'd be losing money for sure if he sold (like you would with most watches) but not to extent that 893 is suggesting. The proof is in the pudding in that there aren't any of these available in good condition anywhere at that price bracket. The main issue shwartz would have is finding a fast buyer. You often see claims on here about what a real used value is of a watch that I don't ever see any evidence of from looking at chrono 24 anyway; and I spend a lot of time looking at chrono24 so have a very good idea of most sub 10k watches go for. I will tip my hat to 893s vastly superior experience at buying watches to me though, but I just don't see it.

In my opinion, the new grey market price for this is really good value. I like a watch to be near perfect condition and I'm not a flipper so don't obsess over resale values like a lot of collectors do. If you are a flipper, a Breitling isn't the watch to be buying. If everyone was like that, all people would ever buy is moonwatches and submariners. Nothing sinks my heart like seeing someone's "perfect" three watch collection on YouTube when it contains two of those. Both cool watches, but it just lacks any sort of individuality. If a Breitling, or a JLC or a Tag speaks to you and you think its good value then buy it, don't be worrying about resale values.

scwazrh · 16-08-2020 10:18am

893bet wrote: »

I think you would be disappointed on adverts with lots “offers”.

Anyone spending 2-3k on a breitling will have a fair amount of research done IMO. Proof will be in the pudding.

There prob is none for sale at 1800. Can you find some at 2300? Maybe. But would you buy it? **** no. I can brand new from a dealer for a few 100 more.

Omega/breitling/tag are in general 40-50 percent off RRP on the second hand market. Recently tried selling my PO which (12 years old but serviced by Omega recently) and couldn’t even get an offer my asking was less than 50% of current RRP. No demand. I have an in warranty good as new Stowa at a 45% discount from RRP and again nada but a few tyre kickers.

Don’t forget the reason the grey has the watch at 2600 is that some AD is slipping this 3800 euro watch out their back door for 2200 or so......demand ain’t there.

There’s no doubt that a 2nd hand watch is going to loose value , of course it will but a new watch bought at the lowest grey market price is not going to loose 30-40% of its value in a couple of months .

Your PO while a fine watch is a 12 year old watch and unless a special version it’s not going to be worth 50% of its new value and you can’t compare a 12 yr price residual to a 3/6 month residual.

I spent the last 6 months searching for a moonwatch and bought a 2016 at €3k which if you believe posts on this forum I overpaid but I know what was available and having searched well for one ,I know it was a fair price albeit a 30% decrease over 4 yrs .Granted a moonwatch is a more in demand model.

Look it’s only worth what someone’s willing to pay for it and hopefully I won’t want to sell it to find out if I’m right or wrong.

893bet · 16-08-2020 10:37am

redlead wrote: »

My twopence worth is that you'd be losing money for sure if he sold (like you would with most watches) but not to extent that 893 is suggesting. The proof is in the pudding in that there aren't any of these available in good condition anywhere at that price bracket. The main issue shwartz would have is finding a fast buyer. You often see claims on here about what a real used value is of a watch that I don't ever see any evidence of from looking at chrono 24 anyway; and I spend a lot of time looking at chrono24 so have a very good idea of most sub 10k watches go for. I will tip my hat to 893s vastly superior experience at buying watches to me though, but I just don't see it. .

C24 is not a good benchmark for actually selling prices. Same as WF.
Take 20 percent minimum from C24 for private sales and 30% from WF typical prices. IMO.

I am far from an expert.

redlead wrote: »

In my opinion, the new grey market price for this is really good value..

Good value based on a fictitious RRP though. They grey market price is the true new selling price. If 3800 was achievable for the AD then that would be the price.

redlead wrote: »

If you are a flipper, a Breitling isn't the watch to be buying.

This really is my point. There is such little demand. To think this will be an easy sell if you don’t like it will lead to disappointment. You may get lucky if you can bide your time and wait for a buyer to appear. But there will be no easy sell on adverts.

Have a look at all the breitling on adverts. They rarely get offers....even low ball offers.

redlead wrote: »

Nothing sinks my heart like seeing someone's "perfect" three watch collection on YouTube when it contains two of those. Both cool watches, but it just lacks any sort of individuality. If a Breitling, or a JLC or a Tag speaks to you and you think its good value then buy it, don't be worrying about resale values.

100 percent. The ‘perfect collection’ is fairly boring with the standard diver sub, the standard chrono speedmaster and some generic dress watch. Zzzzzz

Last point is the most important. But what you like, at the best price and try to forget residuals. I am working hard on that. Which is why I have knocked my buying on the head for the most part (had a few JLC wobbles recently almost). Not buying watches that in the back of my mind I only want to try.

But if you are buying omega/breitling/tag etc...prepare your anus.

banie01 · 16-08-2020 11:13am

With Breitling I have experience of buying one last year.
A17392 on black rubber. Current Chrono24 prices for 2nd hand vary between $2666 and $3870.

I paid €1500(granted exchange rate when I bought was a bit better), and tbh if I was buying again I'd consider my choice a bit more carefully.
I love the watch, it's great, it wears well and is everything I wanted and it's a keeper for me for the foreseeable.

As a piece of Breitling tho, it's quite a generic diver and I probably should have been a bit bolder in my choice for a Breitling.
I should probably have gone for something far more along the lines of the actual aesthetic, than a branded diver which is what I got.

If I look at my specs, I could have gotten everything the Breitling offers including a likely higher spec 2824 elaboré in a similarly presented diver for less again.

Watchcharts, watchrecon and eBay auctions all give far better indicitive prices than Chrono24 imo.
Chrono are asking prices, it's the sale prices that matter and Chrono24 rarely shares that info.

EDIT
Another very handy resource for pricing aside from the for sale sections of the big watch forums is on Reddit.
R/watchexchange is honestly the fastest selling corner I've seen in any hobby.

scwazrh · 16-08-2020 11:32am

banie01 wrote: »

With Breitling I have experience of buying one last year.
A17392 on black rubber. Current Chrono24 prices for 2nd hand vary between $2666 and $3870.

I paid €1500(granted exchange rate when I bought was a bit better), and tbh if I was buying again I'd consider my choice a bit more carefully.
I love the watch, it's great, it wears well and is everything I wanted

Great price , did you have customs to pay as well ? Nearly new watch or few yr old ?

banie01 · 16-08-2020 11:37am

scwazrh wrote: »

Great price , did you have customs to pay as well ? Nearly new watch or few yr old ?

It's a 2013 with a 2018 service. Very good condition when I bought it and nope, no customs.

unkel · 16-08-2020 4:06pm

redlead wrote: »

buy it, don't be worrying about resale values.

That's fine if you are going to keep it forever, but you'd be in the minority amongst watch people

It's all well and good to just buy it, as long as you realise that if you should sell it on you might take a big hit on it. If you can afford that hit, all is good, go ahead.

redlead · 16-08-2020 4:33pm

unkel wrote: »

That's fine if you are going to keep it forever, but you'd be in the minority amongst watch people
.

I don't think that's the minority of watch people. It might be on a forum because flippers tend to have a new watch every few weeks but I think most people tend to put a lot of time into planning a big watch purchase and then build a connection with it. I'm talking about about luxury watches, not sub 500 watches that are easy come, easy go.

It's also more likely that a flipper will buy a banged up watch on the cheap and pass it on for the same. That doesn't mean that's the real value of that watch. You see this a lot with seamasters for some reason. You see them going for nothing but they look like a tank drove over them. I'd rather pay 3.5k for a brand new one from a gray market dealer. They're two very different mindsets of collecting. We're both in different camps but neither is the right or wrong way. Constantly panicking over residuals just isn't a priority for a lot of people buying watches is all my point is; and that's regardless of wealth. It just means you will experience less luxury watches over a lifetime but may get more from the ones you have. There's positives and negatives to both approaches.

unkel · 16-08-2020 4:59pm

redlead wrote: »

that's regardless of wealth

Of course it's not regardless of wealth. Personally there is no way I could justify buying a watch if there was a good chance I'd lose €1500-2000 on it. I'd rather stick to €200 Seikos or micro brand watches instead in that case

If you have the disposable income to not have to worry about such a loss, power to you, you are a lot wealthier than me

redlead · 16-08-2020 5:16pm

yeah but the way I look on it is that you are not losing 1.5-2k on a watch (which you wouldn't on a brand new Breitling costing 2.6k but I take your point) in this instance because you have assessed the watch to be a good value product for what you are paying and then you are likely going to keep it. I just never think about how I can sell a watch before I buy it. Fair enough, I may get stung down the line but I don't really buy anything on a whim so it's less likely to happen to me. It just really limits your options around what you can buy. I guess ultimately I look on watches as an indulgent expense rather than an asset. That doesn't mean I'm loaded, it just means that I will have less watches unfortunately :-P

scwazrh · 16-08-2020 5:47pm

redlead wrote: »

I don't think that's the minority of watch people. It might be on a forum because flippers tend to have a new watch every few weeks but I think most people tend to put a lot of time into planning a big watch purchase and then build a connection with it. I'm talking about about luxury watches, not sub 500 watches that are easy come, easy go.

It's also more likely that a flipper will buy a banged up watch on the cheap and pass it on for the same. That doesn't mean that's the real value of that watch. You see this a lot with seamasters for some reason. You see them going for nothing but they look like a tank drove over them. I'd rather pay 3.5k for a brand new one from a gray market dealer. They're two very different mindsets of collecting. We're both in different camps but neither is the right or wrong way. Constantly panicking over residuals just isn't a priority for a lot of people buying watches is all my point is; and that's regardless of wealth. It just means you will experience less luxury watches over a lifetime but may get more from the ones you have. There's positives and negatives to both approaches.

Couldn’t agree more with this .I really don’t get people buying watches that are scratched to bits just because it’s premium brand name. I’ve only bought 3 2nd hand watches and each of them were near 10/10 when I bought them and still are.
Up until recently I hadn’t sold any of my watches either but have sold a few over the last couple of months and all were in very good condition. Buying a battered watch just to get it cheaper is false economy , it’s only cheap because it’s rough.

banie01 · 16-08-2020 5:58pm

scwazrh wrote: »

Couldn’t agree more with this .I really don’t get people buying watches that are scratched to bits just because it’s premium brand name. I’ve only bought 3 2nd hand watches and each of them were near 10/10 when I bought them and still are.
Up until recently I hadn’t sold any of my watches either but have sold a few over the last couple of months and all were in very good condition. Buying a battered watch just to get it cheaper is false economy , it’s only cheap because it’s rough.

Would agree, buying battered is certainly a false economy.
However 2nd hand doesn't mean battered, most people treat their prestige watches like babies.
My own Breitling was/is honestly an as new watch easily 9.5/10.

The point that Unkel and 893bet are making is that the actual "new" price of certain marques is the grey dealer price. That's the price they are trading the majority of stock at.
It's not like a 2nd hand car where the year of reg will affect the price, condition matters fat more than age in watches.

Some marques have their boutique price and sell a certain amount at that.
But when the same marques will discount at their ADs and/or sell on to grey dealers?

Surely it's logical that the grey price is the actual retail value for new stock?

The second hand market varies, but to be fair the completed sales are where to judge those.
People aren't buying wrecked watches in the main, and discount from retail can be significant.

redlead · 16-08-2020 6:05pm

I never bought from an AD but I would have thought that the majority of Omega or Breitling sales would still be through an AD rather than grey market? Of course for those brands the retail price at the AD is not the real price at the AD either. So all BS and exaggerations aside, let's say a Breitling that's in Weirs at 4,700 RRP and on the grey market for 3,300; what's the actual price that Weirs will sell it for?

banie01 · 16-08-2020 6:09pm

redlead wrote: »

I never bought from an AD but I would have thought that the majority of Omega or Breitling sales would still be through an AD rather than grey market? Of course for those brands the retail price at the AD is not the real price at the AD either. So all BS and exaggerations aside, let's say a Breitling that's in Weirs at 4,700 RRP and on the grey market for 3,300; what's the actual price that Weirs will sell it for?

TBH if they want my cash?
3300, why would I pay more than that? That said I don't know what Weirs bottom line would be on it.
The point is that if there is a publicly available lower price?
Why would you entertain even a discounted AD watch that costs more? Only difference is the name on the warranty card IMO.

redlead · 16-08-2020 6:26pm

banie01 wrote: »

TBH if they want my cash?
3300, why would I pay more than that? That said I don't know what Weirs bottom line would be on it.
.

That's why the likes of us will go grey market or used every time but there is no way Weirs would sell it for anywhere near 3,300. I'm just curious what the real gap between AD and GM is.

scwazrh · 16-08-2020 6:28pm

6/7 weeks ago I was in Weirs looking at a moonwatch and a Tudor black bay S&G

Omega €4800 down to €4400 and Tudor €5000 down to €4600 .I offered €4K for the moonwatch with my card on the counter ready to pay and they said no. I left without a purchase .

There is a constant theme on this forum that AD’s are desperate to shift stock and that a minimum of 30% discounts will be got without even trying . That may have been the way previously but from shopping around the main jewellers inDublin and speaking to Lunns in Belfast this year , that’s just not the case.

893bet · 16-08-2020 6:34pm

20 percent is available regularly in ADs on many omega. Not every one AD and not every watch. There was a load of online sales during lock down the speedie down to 3200 sterling (3.6 euro).

I have heard the margin for ADs is 35-40 percent. No idea if that’s true. Can’t even remember where I heard it or read it.

banie01 · 16-08-2020 6:36pm

redlead wrote: »

That's why the likes of us will go grey market or used every time but there is no way Weirs would sell it for anywhere near 3,300. I'm just curious what the real gap between AD and GM is.

I 100% agree.
AD's are facing a horrible quandary. I can go via a grey and tbh even chance haggling on their already far lower price but either way versus AD one is saving a significant amount.

Does that point to an issue with AD margins?
Or does it point to manufacturers running a 2 tier supply chain and differential pricing?

If the current trend continues, it will result in people using AD's to try on their watch before buying via a grey more and more.
I know Omega had a freeze on discounts recently with a new sky launch but just prior to that a UK dealer ran a moonwatch offer at @£;3k new and demand was mental.

I shared it for schwarz when he was looking but it expired very quickly.

scwazrh · 16-08-2020 6:39pm

893bet wrote: »

20 percent is available regularly in ADs on many omega. Not every one AD and not every watch. There was a load of online sales during lock down the speedie down to 3200 sterling (3.6 euro).

I have heard the margin for ADs is 35-40 percent. No idea if that’s true. Can’t even remember where I heard it or read it.

In the same way of the price is not the price until paid these offers are not believable until the watch is in your hand .
I tried to buy at the advertised 3200 Sterling during lockdown from heptinstalls and Ernest Jones , neither could fulfill the order so the online sale was pointless

If the AD margin is 35-40 percent there’s no way they can discount 30-40% and make a profit

893bet · 16-08-2020 6:40pm

RRPs too high and AD margin is too big is the problem.

If a grey can sell for 20 percent off them surely they are buying for 25-30 percent off? So what margin does the AD have to be able to do that? At least 35-40. Maybe more.

I believe Rolex have squeeze the dealer margin in the last few years (again not a source to quote...). Wouldn’t be surprised if Omega did similar as the discounting via the back door while raising the RRP is brand damaging.

893bet · 16-08-2020 6:43pm

scwazrh wrote: »

In the same way of the price is not the price until paid these offers are not believable until the watch is in your hand .
I tried to buy at the advertised 3200 Sterling during lockdown from heptinstalls and Ernest Jones , neither could fulfill the order so the online sale was pointless

Probably limited stock and an immature stock management system that kept taking orders.

These type of flash sales damage brand and lowers the price bar and customers expectation. Much better to try keep the price high and sweeten the deal with extra straps, free first service, extended warranty etc. There was one UK retailer who I think was offering an extra 5 years warranty on Rolex I think. This might have been non transferable but a great selling point.

banie01 · 16-08-2020 6:47pm

The Ernest Jones and Hepinstalls sales were both noted and marked hot on HUKD and that kind of demand has even flummoxed Amazon's order and stock handling capabilities.

From reading the HUKD threads on those sales, plenty did get hold of watches and whilst the experience with cancelled orders was terrible for some.

That type of discounting lowers the floor and makes selling at a higher price to anything other than a motivated buyer quite a bit harder.

scwazrh · 16-08-2020 6:53pm

I think Rolex controlled availability and pricing increase has had a major knock on effect on watch prices across all price points .Since Rolex increased prices and relaunched Tudor to take the old Rolex price point there has been a steady price increase across Omega , Breitling , IWC , Seiko and Oris .

unkel · 16-08-2020 10:50pm

redlead wrote: »

I guess ultimately I look on watches as an indulgent expense rather than an asset.

I wish I could do the same!

I like a champagne lifestyle but unfortunately I'm on a beer income. With three growing up children, which does not help

My hobbies must be cost neutral, there's no budget to indulge. I can only justify buying an expensive watch if I am fairly confident I will likely at some point be able to sell it for more than I paid for it. Or worst case scenario, at a minimal loss.

redlead · 17-08-2020 8:44am

unkel wrote: »

I can only justify buying an expensive watch if I am fairly confident I will likely at some point be able to sell it for more than I paid for it. Or worst case scenario, at a minimal loss.

You're firmly settled into fitzgemes Rolex stage now so haha. I'm just lagging a step behind is all it is :-P

unkel · 17-08-2020 10:12am

Yeah, stage 4 here

If you had told me a few years ago that I would not only own a Rolex, but already moved onto my second one and really fancied a third one, I would have laughed in your face!

Wibbs · 17-08-2020 10:55am

Yep defo Stage 4.

Any more and it's out with the razor or your instagram pics will be ruined.

scwazrh · 16-09-2020 7:32pm

So finally got my Watch - Breitling Avenger 43mm black dial . Very happy with it, wears smaller than I Expected

https://i.imgur.com/JSnfk9F.jpg

Breitling avenger 43mm auto

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